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Some day, I'm going to run some numbers to show the comparison between
(a) seeing crash wreckage from the air
and
(b) seeing some correspondingly small object on the carpet across a room (and even some times when you're standing right over it).

I've flown air-drop over the tundra in Alaska, and one thing that still impresses me is how unnoticeably small men and man-made objects smaller than houses look from the air, without roads or such to tell you where to look for 'em.

Rocky, you know, from your flying in 'Nam and Laos. Itty-bitty, aren't they, when they don't have smoke to tell you where they are?


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I suppose it's a known crash, at least I've known about it since the 70s, but there is one SW of Redlodge Montana just of of Beartooth pass in Sunlight Basin Wyoming. Within a few miles of Granite Lake. I don't know much about identifying aircraft, but it was a jet. I've never been clear up to the main crash sight but I have looked over an engine that lays in the woods in one of my old elk hunting areas. There is another north of Shell Canyon in the Bighorns, but I'm pretty sure this one is known, you can see it from the highway.


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They sure are, Ken. I was specially trained in how to both look and see - that's what a FAC does for half his living: finding stuff.

But it's still almost impossible even if humans are waving and moving. Immobile objects are much harder. I was blessed with extremely good eyesight, and once saw a single footprint in wet grass from 1,500 feet. But that was really an aberration due more to sun angle than eyes or skill.

Unless you see sun glint off metal, finding a crash in desert/rocky terrain is one of the hardest things you can imagine. There won't be an "airplane" just as there aren't any "postcard deer" in the woods; you have to train yourself to see odd angles, shapes, short straight lines, parts of things, even parts of parts. It takes an extremely skilled and highly trained observer; which is why so many crashes never do get found.


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Ken
Holland is reclaiming some of the Zidderzee (SP) and finding aircraft from WWII, sometimes with the aircrew still in them.
They also are finding lots of armaments that were jetisoned there.
Jim


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The History channel has a show on the Bogg's - Begich search.They have it on from time to time. It's called something like the Alaska Triangle. fairly interesting as I know some of the searchers that are still active CAP members. --- Mel


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History channel had a program on the hazards of Alaska flying. According to the narrator, Jonz did not file a flight plan. Their depiction of Jonz was unflattering to say the least. He did tell the tower that he ELT aboard.

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Don Jonz was at or around the university (Fairbanks) when I was there. There was also a sweet young heiress, whose name escapes my fluttery memory right now, whose beauty made all the guys' blood run a bit faster and warmer. Jonz married her and announced that he was going to be another Richard Halliburton, flying the world in his "Flying Carpet." But I heard later that he went through his wife's fortune sooner than he expected, dumped her, and had to go back to flying for a living. He loved to fly and was a capable aviator but a sorry piece of � er � work as a man. He richly deserved to go, but it's a shame that he had to take others with him.

I assume that they and that twin Cessna are at the bottom of a deep body of water.

(And now I'm going to get a load of flak from a couple of self-anointed, vicarious Campfire consciences for revealing some of the truth about a very unadmirable dead guy.)


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I've always been fascinated with the history of ship and plane wrecks. Every time I see one of these stories about a WWII plane being found somewhere it piques my interest. It's amazing in this day and age that these wrecks from decades ago are still showing up.


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I do quite a bit of flying, well, riding in the right seat anyway, across UT, NV, and CO. These stories sure make a guy think. Western NV is the closest thing I've seen to Afghanistan in the U.S. I wonder what else they'll find out there...
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Thanks, Rocky!

IIRC, the bright glint of sunlight on metal was the single first clue to all the discoveries of aircraft wreckage that were spotted from the air � during an air search or by accident years later. Some � again, IIRC � were otherwise obscured by brush or forest canopies. It doesn't take a very big piece of shiny metal to fling a reflection aloft (like a foot print in wet grass, eh, Rocky?).

It took me two days on each of my first long-range hunts to learn to see the antelope and Coues deer that my experienced partners were seeing and trying to get me to see. When I finally saw what I was looking at, not one was a calendar painting or nearly as noticeable as I'd been looking for it to be. One Arizona guide spotted the lower legs of a Coues deer that was far too far away for me to see the deer when it walked clear of the screening brush. Even his outfitter boss was impressed.


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My wife's great uncle crewed on B-24's during WWII and missed a flight on his bird, for some reason. The plane went down on that mission with all hands unaccounted for. No one saw the plane go down, and no records, either Axis or Allied made mention of seeing the plane go down. The mission was to a marshalling yard deep behing German lines, and the anti-aircraft units and fighter groups from that area had no record of engaging the plane. It's like it just vanished off the face of the earth. No part of the plane has ever been recovered. Makes one wonder what really happened. Exploded in flight from AA fire? Shot down by a pilot who died on the same mission and didn't get a chance to file his report? His was the only plane from that group that didn't return. They were attacked twice on the way in by 109's and 190's and had a running gun battle coming back with a group of Messerschmidt 110's. They did claim one 109 shot down, and one probable as well as one 110 shot down.


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On a related note. I saw a program on one of the documentary channels a while back. I wish I could remember the details more clearly.

I think the site of the crash was a glacier in Argentina. No crash was ever found even though they had a very good idea of the location. It appeared as if the glacier had swallowed all evidence.

Well, it seems that was exactly the case, as about sixty years later the glacier started spitting airplane parts and frozen remains from its face. As the ice moved down the valley and melted, it delivered up the crash. But it was no longer anywhere near the surface.

Perhaps someone else has seen the same program and can remember how deeply the crash had been buried,


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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
� I saw a program on one of the documentary channels a while back. � I think the site of the crash was a glacier in Argentina. No crash was ever found even though they had a very good idea of the location. It appeared as if the glacier had swallowed all evidence.

Well, it seems that was exactly the case, as about sixty years later the glacier started spitting airplane parts and frozen remains from its face. As the ice moved down the valley and melted, it delivered up the crash. But it was no longer anywhere near the surface. �


This one?

Quote
� on August 2, 1947, the Stardust, with eleven people on board took from Buenos Aires for Santiago. It was a routine flight for the British South American Airways plane. The weather was deteriorating and later would approach blizzard conditions, but it wasn�t so bad that the captain, Reginald Cook thought he needed to cancel the flight.

At 5:33 p.m. the radio operator Dennis Harmer sent a message to the Santiago Tower that they were slightly behind schedule but they believed they would arrive at the airfield in about twelve minutes. Then, at 5:41, Harmer made the last transmission. It said, "ETA Santiago, 17:45 hours. Stendec."

In the Santiago Tower, the operator didn�t understand the last word and asked that it be repeated. It was. Twice. Stendec. No one knew what that meant. It was also the last word ever heard from the aircraft. It had simply vanished from the face of the Earth.

Because of a snow storm, the search for the aircraft couldn�t begin until August 3. At first, given the position provided by the aircraft, the search centered near Santiago. When nothing was found there, the search was expanded but no trace of the aircraft was found. At least none was found in 1953.

Nearly forty-seven years later, in January, 2000, five mountaineers, climbing the rugged Mount Tupungato in Argentina, discovered the wreckage of an old aircraft. They also found the remains of three people. The Argentine Army sent an expedition into the area, which is so rugged that the soldiers had to hike the last few miles because even the burros were unable to make it. Using serial numbers from the engines and other bits of wreckage, they identified the aircraft as the long missing Stardust.

The aircraft, not fifty miles from Santiago as the pilots had believed and still over the Andes, was caught in the snow. The pilot, thinking he was approaching Santiago, but with no visual evidence outside the cockpit, began to descend. Unfortunately, their navigation was off and rather than being over the relatively flat ground near the Santiago airport, were still in the mountains. Tragically, they flew into the side of a mountain glacier. The show covered the wreckage during the night, concealing it from the aerial search along the flight route. Then, slowly the glacier swallowed all remnants of the aircraft. For fifty years that wreckage "flowed" downhill with the glacier. It finally flowed to the surface a couple of miles down the mountain. It was here, on a plateau, the wreckage was exposed and discovered.

The army expedition uncovered more wreckage, retrieved the remains of most of the victims some of whom were identified using DNA techniques, and confirmed the identity of the aircraft. The mystery of the Stardust had been solved... Well, most of it. No one has ever figured out what the strange word sent by Harmer meant. It is the only mystery about the crash that remains.


Photo of the "Stardust"


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This kid, the pilot in the white long sleeve t-shirt, and his 5 passengers disappeared from the earth the day after I took this picture...

[Linked Image]

I was also an A&P mechanic for this company at the time. Good kid, very sad deal. frown


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Over on the ATV forum I go to, they always talk about the plane wreckage that is somewhere along the Bunce School House trail in Colorado. There are a couple of sites with some info about plane wrecks since 1962. One is http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp and another for CO & WY is http://coloradowreckchasing.tripod.com/index.html

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My dad worked for six months in Alaska wiring BMEWs (ballistic missile early warning system) sites for Western Electric in 1960. One of the sites was a place called "Big Mountain", which was 10 miles from the nearest indian village and more than 100 from any civilization to speak of. When the Corps of Engineers went in to bulldoze the mountaintop to lay foundations for the site, they found a WWII cargo plane full of medical personnel a few miles away. The remains were still in the wreckage. The plane had gone missing in 1943 and laid on the tundra until some guy out for a hike stumbled across it.

Dad has photos of the wreckage in his slides from that job stint.

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Originally Posted by Ken Howell
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
� I saw a program on one of the documentary channels a while back. � I think the site of the crash was a glacier in Argentina. No crash was ever found even though they had a very good idea of the location. It appeared as if the glacier had swallowed all evidence.

Well, it seems that was exactly the case, as about sixty years later the glacier started spitting airplane parts and frozen remains from its face. As the ice moved down the valley and melted, it delivered up the crash. But it was no longer anywhere near the surface. �


This one?

Quote
� on August 2, 1947, the Stardust, with eleven people on board took from Buenos Aires for Santiago. It was a routine flight for the British South American Airways plane. The weather was deteriorating and later would approach blizzard conditions, but it wasn�t so bad that the captain, Reginald Cook thought he needed to cancel the flight.

At 5:33 p.m. the radio operator Dennis Harmer sent a message to the Santiago Tower that they were slightly behind schedule but they believed they would arrive at the airfield in about twelve minutes. Then, at 5:41, Harmer made the last transmission. It said, "ETA Santiago, 17:45 hours. Stendec."

In the Santiago Tower, the operator didn�t understand the last word and asked that it be repeated. It was. Twice. Stendec. No one knew what that meant. It was also the last word ever heard from the aircraft. It had simply vanished from the face of the Earth.

Because of a snow storm, the search for the aircraft couldn�t begin until August 3. At first, given the position provided by the aircraft, the search centered near Santiago. When nothing was found there, the search was expanded but no trace of the aircraft was found. At least none was found in 1953.

Nearly forty-seven years later, in January, 2000, five mountaineers, climbing the rugged Mount Tupungato in Argentina, discovered the wreckage of an old aircraft. They also found the remains of three people. The Argentine Army sent an expedition into the area, which is so rugged that the soldiers had to hike the last few miles because even the burros were unable to make it. Using serial numbers from the engines and other bits of wreckage, they identified the aircraft as the long missing Stardust.

The aircraft, not fifty miles from Santiago as the pilots had believed and still over the Andes, was caught in the snow. The pilot, thinking he was approaching Santiago, but with no visual evidence outside the cockpit, began to descend. Unfortunately, their navigation was off and rather than being over the relatively flat ground near the Santiago airport, were still in the mountains. Tragically, they flew into the side of a mountain glacier. The show covered the wreckage during the night, concealing it from the aerial search along the flight route. Then, slowly the glacier swallowed all remnants of the aircraft. For fifty years that wreckage "flowed" downhill with the glacier. It finally flowed to the surface a couple of miles down the mountain. It was here, on a plateau, the wreckage was exposed and discovered.

The army expedition uncovered more wreckage, retrieved the remains of most of the victims some of whom were identified using DNA techniques, and confirmed the identity of the aircraft. The mystery of the Stardust had been solved... Well, most of it. No one has ever figured out what the strange word sent by Harmer meant. It is the only mystery about the crash that remains.


Photo of the "Stardust"


Ken,

It sounds like it must be the same crash. I must have misremembered the part about the wreckage appearing far down in the strata of the glacier.


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It seems like not too long ago someone thought that they had found the wreckage of Heisman trohpy winner Nile Kinnick's plane but it turned out to not be his.


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Any sign of Fossett yet?

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Originally Posted by DaveR
Brooks Range Traverse

Interesting stuff to be sure.




I was surprised to come across this thread. I'm the guy who came across that Grumman Goose wreck referenced above.

One of the things I find interesting is this wreck was quite noticeable as a wreck to me from perhaps a mile away, and of course I wasn't even looking for a wreck. It was on an open rock slide, and was clearly metal and in the middle of nowhere and so obviously was an aircraft of some sort. There are a number of reasons the mystery of that crash wasn't solved earlier, and among them were that nobody had a good idea of exactly where to look, that area is REALLY off the beaten path, and it's probable other people saw it from the air and simply assumed it was a known and reported crash site. A buddy of mine and his brother found an old plane crash while Dall sheep hunting in Alaska and told me about it. They decided to report it although I was pretty sure someone must know about it already. I was wrong and it solved another long-missing aircraft mystery.



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