Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Killing power - where do you see the difference?

Windfall,

There are a lot of misconceptions about big game bullet expansion, and one of them is that various bullets expand quicker or slower. In general this isn't true, though there are exceptions--and has been demonstrated again and again both in gel or wax-type expansion media, and on big game. I have used media considerably, as have some bullet companies, and have also cut up many big game animals..

If a typical expanding bullet (whether hollow-point, softpoint or plastic-tipped) hits a big game animal, it almost always expands fully within the length of the bullet. In other words, if the bullet is 1.5 inches long, the bullet has "mushroomed" by the time it penetrates 1.5 inches. This is easily demonstrated by shooting small varmints, such as prairie dogs, with Nosler Partitions and most other controlled expansion bullets. The prairie dogs "explode," because a typical prairie dog is at least 1.5 inches thick, which is sufficient to to expand the bullet.

The semi-exception here is lower muzzle velocities, say under 2500 fps. I once shot quite a few prairie dogs with 180-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips from an iron-sighted .30-40 Krag single-shot I planned to use on deer later that year. The muzzle velocity was around 2400, and while the BTs didn't explode most PDs, they left inch-wide exit holes, even at 200 yards, so yes, they were definitely expanding.

Another exception to this bullets that for some reason don't expand, either at all or not much. I have encountered some of these over the decades, but they're unusual--and have become more unusual with plastic-tips.

Yet another exception is some "target" type bullets, such as the Bergers that always get so much attention on these threads. They have a basically closed hollow-point, but behind the tip the jacket is empty for a little ways. Instead of "mushrooming," the tip generally collapses after the bullet pushes a couple inches into either media or game, and only then does the bullet expand--often violently. (The exception here is when handloaders push such bullets much beyond 3000 fps, as many seem to think is necessary or desirable for a "long range bullet," then shoot animals at relative close range. They then can indeed come apart very quickly.)

Also, in general bullet and ammo companies DON'T use bullets of different "hardnesses" for various cartridges. There have been exceptions to this in the past, but most hunters either didn't comprehend the difference, or didn't understand it, so often used bullets designed for non-magnum cartridges at too high velocity in magnums, or used magnum bullets in "standard" rounds. So most companies now try to construct bullets so they'll work reasonably well in both standard and magnum rounds.)

MD,

I have had rather poor experience with TSX bullets, IMO. They didn't seem to open up in my 270 or my son's 270. We didn't retrieve the bullets as they punched a small diameter hole through a couple of white tails. The interior damage was minimal and the deer traveled a way before they expired, I felt. These deer were shot at close range.

I have some other TSX bullets in other calibers and have not decided to try them.

I'm buying TTSX bullets now as I understand they open up much better???

Bugger

Mule Deer, I think what you saw with your exploding prairie dogs is the same thing that I saw with an exploding snowshoe hare with a 180 grain Core-Lokt from a .308. I surmise that their small bodies cannot contain the temporary stretch cavity from a higher speed bullet. On larger animals we only get to see the permanent wound cavity because their larger bodies can contain it. At one time I thought that my deer deserved to be shot with premium or heavy for caliber bullets. Longer runs resulted and while a smaller permanent wound channel made for a tidy carcass, a quarter size hole through both lungs of a deer shot with a 140 grain TSX convinced me that it was not making lung mush like the softer Partitions that I'd been using. I'm sure that both bullets had expanded, though they hadn't resulted in the same amount of temporary stretch cavity. There are a lot of forum guys writing that the plastic tipped TTSX is a great bullet and I suspect that Barnes needed a tip that would more reliably expand the TSX. I am a resent convert to plastic tipped SST's and BT bullets. This year's deer needed his neck broken as a finisher. That neck skin was stretched out to much larger I think because its smaller size couldn't absorb the violent nearly immediate temporary stretch cavity. Feasible?

Bugger,

Have been using TSXs since they appeared in 2003, and in smaller calibers have seen them fail to expand more than once, and have friends who experienced the same thing. I suspect this is due to the tiny hollow-point in the tip in calibers of .30 or less, but have never had any TSXs over .30 caliber fail to open.

Eileen and I started using TTSXs as soon as they appeared in 2007 in smaller calibers, and have never had one fail to expand yet. This includes the Long Range version, the LRX, which is designed to open up at longer ranges where velocity has fallen off. Have used the 6.5 127 and .30 175 the past two years, and they opened up great on doe deer, yet still damage as little meat as the standard TTSX.

Windfall,

That's exactly what happens with smaller animals and expanding bullets--which brings up another point. Hunters who've shot smaller animals like prairie dogs and rabbits with big game bullets and see the "explosion" often think this means the bullet isn't "tough enough" for big game. Obviously this isn't true, especially with Partitions, and the reason is exactly what I stated: The bullets expand bullet very soon after entering.

One of most interesting test medias that I've used was the Test Tube, made of a fairly soft grade of candle wax. Unlike ballistic gelatin, it retained the permanent wound cavity, and provided some very interesting information--the reason several bullet companies started using them. But unfortunately the Test Tube company went under during the Great Recession, though I still have good supply in my basement. May post some photos of their results here later if I have time. They are shown in a couple of my books, including RIFLE TROUBLE-SHOOTING AND HANDLOADING and the first BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK.

I’ll be trying my TSX bullets in 375 then. Probably in the 375-06AI. Thanks MD.

Mono metal bullets sacrifice tissue damage in order to gain penetration. Their expanded frontal area is often smaller than traditional bullets and the don't fragment often. When they do fragment the pieces are large and have a lower density than lead so they don't have the same effect as traditional bullets.
I have been using monos for years to avoid lead contamination in my game meat. Other than that they have no benefit for me over something over traditional bullets.

A animal dies after being shot from lack of oxygen to the brain. The more tissue you can damage the faster the animal expires. That's why bullets like Berger VLD's kill so fast and bullets like monos do not when not shot into the CNS.

Having used 63 homogeneous bullet types in 13 calibers and multiple cartridges for each of those 13 calibers, I am struggling to digest homogeneous bullets disintegrating.........
Never seen it nor heard of it before this thread.

I see a difference on smaller deer, even more so with heavier bullets. I shot 2 does with a 300 gr Hornady SST sabot backed by 110 gr of Blackhorn 209 and both were DRT. I shot a button buck with a 180 gr .30 cal ballistic tip out of a >308 Win, and th at deer was DRT. All 3 of these shots were 50 yards or less.
Does this make me Captain Obvious?

Monos don't disintegrate, but they often blow off their petals when striking bone or at high impact velocities.

Had a dynamic example of that using a .429 Barnes 200gr pistol bullet in a muzzle loader in early November. With 110 volume units of BH209 at probably 2000 FPS or a little more the bullet did indeed lose its petals. Found 2 at the exit and 1 in the off shoulder of a buck that weighed 160 whole. This after the onside shoulder was busted just below the shoulder blade. Exit in hide was pretty much round and of bullet diameter. Obvious bullet failure. But made a total mess of everything between entrance and exit.

I wouldn't call it a failure at all to be honest.

No, I wouldn't call it a failure either.

Having seen at bunch of monolithic expanding bullets at work in various calibers from .17 up, and would much rather have them "lose petals" than fail to expand. In fact some monos are designed to lose their petals, such as the Cutting Edge Raptor. One of the most sudden kills I've seen that didn't involve the CNS was a 40-grain Raptor started at 4400 fps from the .22-250. Eileen shot a pronghorn with it at around 160 yards, putting the bullet just inside the near shoulder as the mature doe stood quartering to. The doe instantly collapsed, and we found the base of the little bullet in the meat of the far shoulder, after it punched a hole through the shoulder blade. We lost it before I could weigh it, not surprising since it probably only weighed about 20 grains....

Wasn’t one of the early knocks against monos their erratic ability to expand - or not? Seemingly, in generations of monos that followed it was gradually accepted that losing petals and expanding more rapidly with wedge tips vs hollow points was actually assistant in rapid killing? I’m thinking back over almost 20 years my memory might be fuzzy but CER (Cutting Edge Raptor) bullets seem to be the latest & perhaps most effective variety yet.

No, was not a failure. In the best voice of Fog Horn Leghorn “It’s a jo…I say it’s a joke son..it’s a joke!” Actually I changed bullets after that. Too much of a good thing. Off side honestly looked like a wicked centerfire kill. But they did enough but not too much for my wife with a weighed 60gr charge of BH. She dropped a buck almost as large with much less drama. And of course she had to ask “Why you using so much more powder than me”. women

That’s true, right there.

Only a sample of ~ 50 animals moose, bear, and deer.

But, a 35 caliber/250gn bullet and up make a noticeable difference in knock down power over any of the 33's on down.

I've used 28,30,33,35,36,37 calibers and the only one that comes close is a 30 caliber at 2650 ft/s and up with a 200 gn Accubond.

On big game, with solid heart/lung hits (non CNS), we call it the 10 second rule. Whatever the animal does in the 10 seconds, after the shot, is where you will find it. The ones that stagger, just stand there, or hobble along, are found closer than the ones that take off, on a "death run".

The bullet that visibly staggers an animal nearly every time, is a HARD cast (15-18 BHN), flat nosed bullet. As my dad called them, pre-expanded. A 350 grain, .45 caliber bullet, with a .370-.400 flat nose will hammer an animal on impact. We've never had a critter catch one, no matter how big or the angle. Entrance and exit holes look like a paper punch of the same bullet diameter. The damage in between is always impressive, and much more so than you would expect. The usual reaction is to hang around, after being rocked, for the "10 seconds", and fall over.....10-20 yards from where they were hit, often less.

Of course, it's not a long range bullet, and I can't remember shooting any game with it past 200 yards. But, out of a muzzleloader, 45-70, .458, there is nothing that penetrates and transfers shock better, IMO.

For "normal"/longer range rigs, we mostly shoot accubonds. We have caught alot them from ranges inside 50 yards out to 800 yards.....out of animals, and dirt banks at the range. Every one of them are the classic mushroom shape....only difference is the length of the bullet shank. Longer on far shots, shorter on close shots. The .338/225 and .308/200 are our favorites for western big game, and African plains game. While they do kill well, the hard cast bullet will get more reaction and incapacitate the animal, typically resulting in no tracking at all, and them tipping over in view.

I can't help but wonder, what a flat nosed .308/200 grain hard cast bullet would do?

Andy3

I shot a doe earlier this year and joked about it being a bullet failure as the jacket and core separated. The doe fell over and rolled down the hill with lots of blood on the ground.
I like bullet “failures” like that.

It's really a bit of a chuckle that we're discussing the tradeoff of monometals failing to expand vs losing petals, where it's fairly trivial to get both full weight retention and reliable opening out of a design like the A-Frame.

The monometals are just fighting it out for 4th place after the A-Frame, Terminal Ascent, and Northfork designs.