Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles 7mm-08 and 7mm Rem Mag Overlap???

Mule Deer hits the nail on the head!

The three most important things in hunting are: (1) shot placement; (2) bullet construction; and (3) shot placement!

Speed doesn't kill. Bullets hitting vital tissue with sufficient energy to destroy said vital tissue kills.

I do not like the 7 mag. Too much kick for too little advantage. Discourages practice. And most of us need more practice with the rifle we own a lot more than we need another rifle. I also don't feel that a the cartridge fills a niche that needs filling. Too much recoil for antelope, not enough WHUMP for big bears.

The advantage of the 7 mag does not really appear until the game is 250 yards away. My experience has been that only highly qualified snipers should be shooting game at that range. The rest of us are better off with one real good rifle we can shoot real well. If the game is out of range, STALK IT!

Remember, hunting ain't a shooting sport. I never owned a magnum, probably won't unless I win lotto and buy a safari.

All that ranting an raving being finished, I say get the 7-08. Shoot it often. Use the same bullets as in the 7 mag. Enjoy shooting again. Leave the 7 mag at home more and more often as your confidence in 7-08 increases. If you really want a thumper, sell the 7 mag and buy a 338. The 338 has a lot of recoil, but you get something for it--A serious Bear and Moose rifle.

Just my 2 cents . . .

BMT

PS-no flaming please, I will not come to your door seeking to confiscate your 7 mags. Some of my freinds own them. I have been able to remain freinds with them in spite of their choice :-)

BMT,
I agree with the basic primise of your reply.

However, your statement--- "Speed doesnt kill. Bullets hitting vitial tissue with sufficient eneregy to destroy said tissue kills."---actually would support using a high velocity round like the 7mag.

A smaller high velocity bullet will do more damage to surrounding tissue that a biger slower moving bullet, provided it penetrates bone sufficently to get there.

Example: A watermellon shot end to end with a 170 gr. 30-30 at 2400 fps will yield a small hole on entrance, and a large exit hole. Do the same with a 85gr. .243 at 3300 fps and the watermellon will explode. That is tissue damage!

What I am saying is that velocity, in the form of tissue shock does kill, and kills effectively.

There are so many variables in bullet construction/weight/desin/velocity limits that there are no longer any real "set in stone" rules. Only options.

A "light" fast handling 7-08 will be a great compliment to the 7 Rem mag.

And the recoil from a 7 mag is only a few foot pounds more than an 06.

No flames intended.

GB

A short, light 7-08 is a very user friendly rifle. Personally, I see very little overlap between a typical 7mm Mag sporter and a short, light 7-08. One is/should be a heavier, longer "reacher" complete with like optics, while the other is an all around, shorter range rifle. I've used, and still use both types very similar rifles because of these differences.
One word of caution about some of the Model 7's. They tend to be muzzle light when equipped with a scope. Particularly a heavy mount and variable combination. If you wind up with such a combination you may well find you can't shoot it very well because of the muzzle light qualities. So pick the rifle model, the mounts and the scope accordingly. I'd go for a simple 4X and a two piece mount set up, like the Dual Dovetail system. E

Further clarification GB:

Bullet weight increase energy directly (10x more weight = 10x more energy). Bullet velocity increases energy geometrically (10x more velocity = 100x more energy). This appears to be a slam dunk in favor of higher velocity.

BUT . . . .

That energy is dealt out on all objects involved. The shooter gets more recoil. The bullet gets destroyed more dramatically. And the animal will (if it is hit) absorbs more energy.

The real problem is getting the right bullet into the right part of the animal with enough energy remaining to kill reliably.

A 139 grain Ballistic Tip at 150 yards (going 2900 fps) placed in a deer's chest cavity is devastating. The same bullet at 25 feet (going 3200 fps) hitting the front shoulder of a charging wild boar is a devastating wounder. If you only have one shot, and no trees to climb, the shooter will be in trouble. In the case of the wild boar, velocity was a detriment. at 200 yards, the the same bullet may have been going slow enough to penetrate and make the kill.

Of course, bullet choice can alter the scenario, but a hunter will often be faced with situation he/she did not plan on. The rifle bullet cartridge combination must be able to handle the situation. That is why the partition is so popular, it covers all the bases (even if accuarcy is rather poor in many guns).



That said, I like mid range velocities with high quality bullets. I find such rifles far more versatileand pleasing to shoot.

All my best,

BMT

AFP et al.,

Actually, as was pointed out by several, it is energy that kills game. More specifically the TRANSFER of kenetic energy from the bullet to the tissue of the game.

Force (kenitic energy) = 1/2 MV^2. where M = mass (grains of bullet mass), V = velocity squared. As was pointed out, an increase in velocity is squared where an increase in mass is directly proportional to the increase in force. The kenetic energy term we are accustomed to seeing is Ft/lbs.

Now there is a fundamental law of physics that says that an object that is motion tends to stay in motion, unless it is acted upon by an outside force = resistance. Also conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy is conserved, Ie. is transfered when it meets resistance.

WTF does this have to do with hunting you may ask ??

Well a rifle bullet has KE or Force as expressed in ft/lbs. If that bullet does not meet any resistance, it cannot "transfer" any of it's energy. I.e. the more resistance it meets, the more of it's energy it transfers, per the conservation principle.

Technically, tissue damage is caused by the transfer of KE of the bullet that meets resistance of tissue. That is why bullets that rapidly expand on impact can result in dramatic kills, via increased resistance, more of their KE is transfered to the tissue of the game. Also, this rapid transfer of KE often results a large hydrostatic shock wave that overwelms the nervous system of the game. The example that someone posted about the grapefuit and the high velocity, rapidly expanding bullet vs the slow, controlled expanding one. This is not to say however, that you can gut shoot a deer and drop them in their tracks. You still have to properly place a shot. Actually, if you think about it, if a bullet expends it's energy into the gut of a deer, there is more mass to absorb the transfer of energy, and very little energy actually makes it to the deers vitals.

This principle of a very high velocity bullet's KE being transfered to game was recognized and exploited by Roy Weatherby, who was most certainly ahead of his time.

Bullet mfgs. constantly battle the tradeoff of penetration/controlled expansion vs rapid expansion and dramatic shock effects. There are bullets that exploit the two extreems and everything in between. There are people who swear that Nosler BTs are the only bullet to use and others who swear at them !! The other extreem is people who swear by X's, Failsafes, etc, and the BT crowd who challenges them to provide an example of "droping them in their tracks" !! The Nosler Partition is an example of a bullet design that both has rapid expansion and retention of mass for penetration, Ie. retained KE. (personally I like a nice blood trail, the kind you can follow on a dead run, I.e controlled expansion and complete penetration !)

The bottom line is that it comes down to the transfer of KE from the bullet to the tissue of the game we are trying to take down. Whether it is dramatic and sudden or more controlled. And of course proper shot placement.

That's it fellas, deer physics 101 is over. There will be a quiz next week !! LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Tony.

Tony,

I have to disagree (politely). Trauma to vital organs/loss of blood is what kills an animal. You could slowly push a knife into an animals vitals and kill it without using much energy at all. Energy is simply a mathematical formula.
We all know the old saw that a 22-250 and a 45-70 factory load have similar energy, but the 45-70 will reliably kill large game with a hit in the vitals while the 22-250 will not.

Further, an arrow through the heart of a big animal will kill it, while a high energy bullet that blows up before it reaches the vitals will not. In the case of the high energy bullet stopping before it reached the vitals, the animal "absorbs" all of the bullet's energy, while in the case of the arrow through the heart, the animal didn't absorb all of the arrow's energy.

Hydrostatic shock is a misnomer--there is no impact that short circuits the electrical sytem on an animals body, as was once thought. Now there is HYDRAULIC shock, which is caused by the bullet displacing noncompressible fluid. The creates a "wave" of fluid that causes tissue damage as it progresses through the animal. You can get a large hydraulic shock wave from fast bullets that expand and penetrate or heavy, hard cast, flat nosed, large diameter bullets that keep their shape and penetrate.

Blaine

I like speed as much as the next guy,but lets not go overboard. E=MC2 may be accurate, but not the full picture of what is going on. The old worn out example of the 22-250 and 45-70 comes to mind. Both have the same energy, but which would YOU rather have if a bear is attacking you? You only need enough sped to comfortably reach out to your most likely available shot. ALOT depends on my mood/hunting type. Patiently sitting waiting for the perfect shot-no trees- my 22-250(deer). For cornfields or brush-308 pump. If I'm really impatient-338 mag with 250g Noslers. You can talk about quick kills all you want, but you've never seen one faster than a coyote done lengthwise with a 338 NP. You need to define your type of hunting and your need, THEN pick a gun. Don't pick a gun because you want it and not be able to use it for your hunting area/style of hunting(do what I say, NOT what I do kind of a deal there-because I've done it the wrong way a couple of times)

AFP,

Well, an arrow kills by a different mechanism than a bullet. Actually, one could make an argument that without KE, an arrow would also not kill eh ? For example, lay a broadhead on your arm. Now, take said broadhead and slam it on your arm......(please don't try this at home !!!!)

Concerning the 22-250 example......substitute your varment bullet example with a 60 grain Trophy Bonded .224 bullet.

In the case of the .22 varment bullet, all of it's KE was transfered in a very rapid fashion, if it was on the shoulder of a deer, it likely did not hit any vitals. I guess you missed the example about the gut shot deer ? If it happened to slip between the ribs and makes it to the vitals, the results would be rather dramatic.

So my point was not about KE per se, but rather where the KE was transfered to. If it is to the vitals, then it is lights out whether it is with a 40 grain VMAX or a 500 grain soft point.

The punch line is, what gives you the best opportunity for success in reaching the vitals; a 40 grain Vmax or a bullet designed to stay together and transfer some of it's KE to a vital organ ?

Like I said, quiz next week !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Tony.

Tony,

How is the mechanism different between an arrow and a bullet? They both cause damage/bleeding to vital organs. The arrow does it at a much lower KE level. Obviously, my take is it's the damage to the vital organs/blood loss that kills, not the KE dump in the vitals.

I'd take the 405 grain hard cast, flat nose, 45-70 bullet at 1300 fps over a 60 TB grain 22 cal bullet at any velocity if facing a large angry bear or buffalo!

Deer are really not the best example to use when evaluating a bullet's killing power. The principals we are discussing are the same, but deer are easy to kill and most anything will work. Since everything works relatively well on deer, any number of conclusions can be drawn and for the most part will be "backed up" by actual experience. This is not so with animals like elk or big bears.


Blaine

Let's not forget that the original point of this thread was a question about using a 7mm-08 on deer and black bear in Maine. I doubt if any of us here would say that it wouldn't work just fine with the right bullet. We're not talking elk at 500 yards here.

But I must also point out that while elk are indeed harder to slay than deer, I have killed several with no problems using both arrows and the 7mm-08's progentior, the 7x57 Mauser. If you plunk 'em where they live with anything that penetrates deeply enough (and even a big, fat bull is far less than two feet thick< side to side) they succumb in short order.

Personally, whether the 7mm-08 is an "adequate" elk cartridge at 500 yards is also irrelevant, since I hardly ever shoot elk at more than 200 yards anyway. Which is probably exactly the case with our young friend and the deer and bear of Maine.

Mule Deer is right, my original purpose for starting this thread was to get an idea of how much of an overlap there was between the 7mag and the 7mm08. I know they will both work very well for deer and bear. I started lookin at the 7mm-08 because I was looking for a short action woods gun that will reach out a little ways in case a longer than usual shot presented itself. The gun I normally use is the 35 Rem. and this is an awesome woods gun, but some of the places I hunt it would be nice to have a longer reaching gun, in a preferably light package, because i dont really enjoy toting my heavy 7mm Mag around in the woods. Thanks for all the responses to this topic. Right now I am still thinking about getting a 7mm08, if i can find a good deal on one i will probably own it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Thanks again,
Brock

I'm likely as devout a 7mmRemmag fan as there is,I think very highly of it. I see it as very versatile,rather practical and far from abusive.

That being said,I'm even sweeter on the 7-08 and think that the Model Seven is an excellent platform for that cartridge(especially the 20" S/S version). The reason being,it does not require great barrel length to do very nice things. I have them in lengths from 20"- 24" and just recently swapped my 14" XP-100 away. Choose any barrel length you like and the 7-08 can muscle up some pretty impressive Juice.

My sole gripe on the S/S Seven is it's stock. I just can't like a milk jug handle. For that reason I believe the LSS Mountain Rifle in 7-08 to be a better bargain,as it wears a very practical stock that is ready to roll. That is a helluva Factory rifle in my opinion.

While I'd prefer the velocity advantage of the 7mmRemmag in wide open spaces,I prefer a short/fast handling 7-08 as an "all arounder". In my rifles,the velocity difference betwixt the two with 120's and 140's is about 500fps on the average. The Big Seven at 3500fps with 120's and 3300-ish fps with 140's(both X bullets,as that is what interests me). Take 500fps away from both weights and that is about what my 7-08's average with like projectiles.

NOW.....were I starting from scratch and reflecting in hindsight for a new 7mm today,I'd grab a S/S Seven in 7SAUM and reward it with a proper(McMillan) handle. I think it does a wonderous job of melding the attributes of both and the bastard simply cooks outta a 22" tube. I think a realistic expectation is velocity about 150-ish fps shy of the Big Seven,unless you dig the heavy stuff(I do not).

I poked mine in a McMillan swirled Mountain Rifle patterned handle,opted the alloy Talley's and poked a 6x42mm on top. It is now under 7.5lbs all up,is short and sweet,shoots like a house afire and hits like a freight train while recoiling suprisingly lightly.

It is a fabulous little rifle and if I were forced to get rid of all my other 7mm's,it would be the one I kept,as it can do it all.

Food for thought..............................