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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,345 Likes: 41
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,345 Likes: 41 |
I think you said something to the effect of “the 30-06 is probably the best everyman’s elk cartridge.” I always thought thought was my saying. I don't remember ever reading it anywhere, but at age 60 I'm smart enough not to trust my memory, and John certainly could have penned it (and probably did)! As they say when it comes to ideas, "amateurs borrow, professional's steal." I do know for a fact, "cartridges are more alike than different" is my original. And on that thought, I've taken elk with the 270 Win, 7-08, 308, 30-06, 300 WSM, and 338 WM, and seen elk taken with many more.They all kill well, but the bigger stuff is no longer fun to me. I've hung my hat on the 6.5 CM, 270, and 308 for any and all future elk hunting (or any hunting). What happened to the 7mm-08? If he tried it, he may throw his 308 in the weeds..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 15,788 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 15,788 Likes: 3 |
Didn't do a thing to stop the Romans I guess...my bad...
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,253 Likes: 6
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,253 Likes: 6 |
Didn't do a thing to stop the Romans I guess...my bad... That’s because they didn’t have Nosler Partitions back in Jesus’ day.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,952 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,952 Likes: 3 |
"If you knew for a fact that you would end up in that situation, you'd want all the gun you could get - likely something in the .458 to .577 range. Since no one knows what the future holds and you have to carry the thing and likely want some reach as well as a stopper, something like a light .375 is a reasonable compromise."
Now lb is up to the .577 bore. lol
GOA
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,044
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,044 |
Someone should inform 458win that the 30/06 is not adequate to stop a bear… I remember that guy - he was the one explaining what bullets he thought were effective for shooting client's bears in the ass. You should get him in here - here's just the clown this thread needs Between Phil Shoemaker, who’s probably been in on the killing of more grizzly sub-species animals than anyone on the planet, and LB, it’s extremely obvious whose opinion is based on a lot of empirical data, and whose is based on emotion and faulty logic, and it’s not even close. This.
"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that lightening ain't distributed right." - Mark Twain
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,250 Likes: 33
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,250 Likes: 33 |
I congratulate LB on amending his assertion that anybody hunting elk in grizzly country should carry a "stopping rifle," which Bob defines as some sort of .375. He amended that to anybody hunting in grizzly country, which is the logical extension of his first remark.
However, he still hasn't answered my question about whether he's ever used a .375 on big game. Since we're all here to learn, that might be useful information.
I have some field experience with both the .375 H&H and Ruger in both North America and Africa, totally over 70 big game animals, ranging in size from around 100 pounds to 1500. Around 80% of those animals were taken by me, and the others by companions I was standing next to. One thing that surprises folks who've never used a .375 H&H or Ruper is they they don't automatically crumple animals, even with fatal shots. In fact, have seen a 100-pound African springbok travel 100 yards after taking a .375 bullet right behind both shoulders, which left an exit hole about the size of a softball. Before the ram fell it never even showed any indication of being hit. The range was about 100 yards.
Have also seen plenty of much bigger game do the same thing. In fact, am trying to recollect an animal that wasn't hit in the central nervous system by a .375 dropping at the shot. It may have happened, but not very often. Have seen 500-pound gemsbok shot through the shoulders with .375 bullets that still managed to go quite a ways before falling.
Might also mention that I've taken around 20% of my big game animals in grizzly country, including Alaska, those portions of Idaho and Montana that have grizzlies (which these days basically means the western half of Montana), the Canadian provinces Alberta and British Columbia, and Northwest and Nunavut Territories. The animals included those we might expect in grizzly country, but also more whitetails than any others, because a lot of prime whitetail country in western Montana is also prime grizzly country.
Other animals include over half my caribou, along with mule deer, elk, black bears, moose, musk ox, bighorn sheep and yes, one grizzly bear. Haven't see grizzlies on all those hunts, but have often seen fresh sign, and on several have seen anything from one to over a dozen bears. Have also had close encounters with several, including the British Columbia bear described earlier that tried to horn in on a bull moose I'd just killed, and a sow and cub very interested in a couple of caribou my hunting partner and I had just killed in the Northwest Territories.
Also in the NWT, once packed out a caribou through an area where a sow and two cubs had been seen earlier the same day. Half expected to encounter them, but didn't. On Kodiak Island was charged twice in one morning by sows with cubs, but both times the cubs, after some confusion, skedaddled to mommy, who decided she was only bluffing. Oh, have twice been followed by grizzlies, both younger bears that were probably curious. One of those occasions was the only time any shots were fired--by my companion at the bear's feet, to scare him off. He didn't scare--but eventually grew weary of the noise and wandered away.
The two things I did do were to remain very aware of being in grizzly country, and having my rifle in my hands when there was any possibility of a close encounter, especially when traveling through close cover, or recovering a freshly-killed big game animal even in wide-open country.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,364
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,364 |
So, All chest Thumping and mutual disparagement aside, did we establish what the minimum acceptable Stopping Caliber is for an enraged charging Black Bear ?
Hypothetically, a 308 Win works for me, 7/08 might be a little light without perfect placement. 6.5 CM is lighter still.
Anyone care to extrapolate for Polar Bear ? 340 Bee has some reach With Global Warming, they are expanding their territory Southward
History May Not Repeat, But it Rhymes.
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,625
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,625 |
I have zero experience with requiring a stopping rifle but imagine that deep reliable penetration & the ability to place the shot under pressure makes the smaller cartridges at least equally effective as the perceived need for something beyond medium bore.
My Grizzly & Bear experience: I have flyfished Alaska 3x and have seen & been around grizzlies every time. Often we have to back off a riffle or break off a fish cuz they moved in. Hunted elk & mule deer in Wyomings grizzly country many times but have never run into one. Black bears are more common but they seem to be on the run away from me unless they are hitting my trash cans at home.
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,191
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,191 |
Amazing how a topic on elk cartridges turns into one on bear stopping.
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,625
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,625 |
This is what the road to nowhere must be like.
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,701 Likes: 5
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,701 Likes: 5 |
So, All chest Thumping and mutual disparagement aside, did we establish what the minimum acceptable Stopping Caliber is for an enraged charging Black Bear ?
Hypothetically, a 308 Win works for me, 7/08 might be a little light without perfect placement. 6.5 CM is lighter still.
Anyone care to extrapolate for Polar Bear ? 340 Bee has some reach With Global Warming, they are expanding their territory Southward For Koala, I think a 17hmr would do the job but I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 22lr
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,364
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,364 |
Hagel’s words about selecting cartridges for when things go wrong, very wrong, apply here
History May Not Repeat, But it Rhymes.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,870 Likes: 5
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,870 Likes: 5 |
Let's amend that - anyone hunting in grizz country needs their heads screwed on straight. The bears know what a dinner bell sounds like. Mark had too little gun (I think we can agree that a 10mm Glock is light for stopping a charging grizzly bear), wasn't cautious enough, and trusted his client too much. And while he was a friend, he died because he made a series of poor decisions. One of those was the gun. If you knew for a fact that you would end up in that situation, you'd want all the gun you could get - likely something in the .458 to .577 range. Since no one knows what the future holds and you have to carry the thing and likely want some reach as well as a stopper, something like a light .375 is a reasonable compromise. I live in grizzly country and would pick my 06' over a .458 or .577 every day of the week because I can shoot the 06' better and am able to make quicker (and accurate) follow up shots without concern with flinch. And as far as elk cartridges go, my stepfather shot elk for over 35 years with a .270 before switching to .300 WBY. and continuing on for another 10 years. I witnessed kills between the two and they all died the same...and the first 65 elk were killed with the .270 shooting factory Rem. Bronze points. I killed my first elk with a 300 savage, followed with .270 and 30.06 for the rest. I may try some trick shooting and switch over to the antique 6.5x55, risking life and limb whilst hunting in big bear country just for the fun of it.
Last edited by SBTCO; 01/05/22.
“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.” ― G. Orwell
"Why can't men kill big game with the same cartridges women and kids use?" _Eileen Clarke
"Unjust authority confers no obligation of obedience." - Alexander Hamilton
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,245
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,245 |
... One thing that surprises folks who've never used a .375 H&H or Ruper is they they don't automatically crumple animals, even with fatal shots. In fact, have seen a 100-pound African springbok travel 100 yards after taking a .375 bullet right behind both shoulders, which left an exit hole about the size of a softball. Before the ram fell it never even showed any indication of being hit. The range was about 100 yards. Yup. Very first animal I ever took with the H&H was a warthog at 200 yards with a 270 gr. SAF. I kinda expected it to do somersaults in the air like a PD (the PH knew better), but boy, was I surprised when that tough bugger took the hit, ran off, and crashed 50 yards later with a big 'ol exit hole in 'em. That was my beginning education in African game...
It's you and the bullet, and all the rest is secondary.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,293 Likes: 24
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,293 Likes: 24 |
Can you use a .30-06? It's way better than what Mark had (his client had the Glock 10mm apparently) but worse that the above. It'll do better if you use premium 200+gr bullets. But if you get to pick, the .30-06 is not the best thing to pick. I assume you're referring to Mark Uptain. That was a bad deal, in 2018. You do realize though that they hunted in the heart of Wyoming's grizzly country, and the outfitter he worked for and many other nearby outfitters had promoted (and still do) .270/.30-06 class rounds, with most any decently constructed bullet for their elk hunters, right?
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,228 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,228 Likes: 2 |
“Stopping power”…. 😂😂 capture screen
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Ain’t easy havin pals.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,253 Likes: 6
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,253 Likes: 6 |
Ironically given the nature of the dust up about “stopping rifles”, I would bet a 30/06 with a high velocity and somewhat softer bullet would have put that warthog down quick. Say a 165 SGK going 2900 fps.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,142
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,142 |
Amazing how a topic on elk cartridges turns into one on bear stopping. Not around the campfire of fools with foul mouths and no manners...LOL!
Pursuit may be, it seems to me, perfect without possession. Robert Kelley Weeks (1840-1876)
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 152,489 Likes: 51
Campfire Savant
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Campfire Savant
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 152,489 Likes: 51 |
Amazing how a topic on elk cartridges turns into one on bear stopping. Not around the campfire of fools with foul mouths and no manners...LOL! It seems they will type things they would not say in person to another man’s face. I try not to get caught up in the word slinging, but this is over the top. We have a professional who spends his valuable time answering our dumb ass questions. That crap is rude and uncalled for.
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 1,839 Likes: 4
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 1,839 Likes: 4 |
Pastor of my dad's church in Anchor Point, when he lived there was hunting deer on Kodiak with a .243, when a bear charged. The bear ran over him as he fell backwards. Somehow he ended up on his knees with the rifle in hand. It had been slung over his shoulder. One shot dropped the bear. I don't recall where he hit it. But, on that day the .243 was a stopping rifle. I believe the story appeared in Alaska Magazine as told to Jim Reardon. IIRC.
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