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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,138 Likes: 10 |
Have suggested this before in various places, but tend to believe that one reason some people have problems with penetration when using Berger VLDs is pushing them to high muzzle velocities--apparently because "long-range bullet" still equates to muzzle velocities well over 3000 fps with many hunters.
Have never used Berger Hunting VLDs stated at over 3000 fps, and have also never seen one disintegrate on impact. Yet they have expanded very well at ranges out to 600 yards.
Years ago, in fact, I tried to "blow up" a Berger VLD on bone, as I recall a 168 VLD started at around 2850-2900 fps from a .30-06. The "test" animal was a feral billy goat in New Zealand, weighing around 200 pounds. I'd already killed it with a lung shot behind the shoulders, but put one through the big joint of the shoulder at 10 feet. The bullet worked the ways Berger Hunting VLDs normally do at such velocities , not expanding until it passed through the bone and entered the chest.
But have heard from other hunters who somehow decided that starting Hunting VLDs at well over 3000 fps would work well at shorter range. One of these was a guy who was shooting Texas feral pigs under the typical corn-feeder at around 100 yards, using the 140-grain VLD from a .264 Winchester Magnum at well over 3000 fps. He reported bullet blow-ups with shoulder shots. Well, gee!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Dec 2015
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Campfire Outfitter
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Mule Deer your 100 % right ,i read about how well Berger bullets always worked and no one much ever said anything about velocity and after 2 years whitetail hunting with 25 caliber 115 Berger VLD hunting bullets out of son`s and my rifle both are Ruger #1`s 257 Weatherby mags. shooting around 3500 - 3600 FPS. we have had spectacular kills on some bucks but one buck " dressed 225 lbs." this fall 2021 ran about 75 yards in a thick Tamarac swamp with no blood trail ,was a 100 yard shot ,hit back of shoulder blade blew up and the bullet pieces did destroy buck`s lungs and all blood stayed inside bucks cavity and did not reach into other side rib cage so no blood trail - none. these bullets are very accurate and like you have stated in lower speed cartridges these Berger bullets probably do work well. but for our 257 Weatherby mag cartridges and other higher speed cartridges you are very right. i never had any problems with Nosler partitions or Swift A-Frames on any buck in the past with these brand bullets ,another bullet i just received in the mail is Hammer bullets 25 caliber 103 gr. because most of my 257 Weatherby mag rifles are 1-10 twist is why i need these lighter grain bullets. will i use these Berger bullets again only in my families 257 Robert rifles from now on .
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Joined: Nov 2021
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New Member
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I’m a accubond guy but Berber’s have a great reputation and are great bullets. Have you looked at the 210 ablr
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,390
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2016
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Bergers are utter crap for elk. They are frangible target bullets, not hunting bullets. Now you know  You can write hunting on the box, but it changes nothing. The bullet he chose they didn't even bother to write hunting on the box. A-Frames, Trophy Bonded (any version - TA, ELD, Tipped, or regular) or Northforks are tops. Barnes X family, Weldcores or Partitions if you can't get those. Choose a bullet with a SD of 0.3 if possible, at least 0.27 if you can't get the heavies. If it's a monmetal you can go lighter. Guaranteed 75+ years old and has never shot an elk with a Berger bullet let alone that one... Fotis - next year I expect to draw an elk tag that'll likely be my best elk tag I'll ever draw. Its a unit known for 400+" bulls. I'll be hunting with a .284" 168 VLD... We’ve killed a bunch with the 168s out of a 7rum and all failed the stress test as well as a bunch of bucks. I’ve got several buddies that shoot 300s and the 210 and they pound them. I just got started with the 180s three shots for two buck and a cow. You won’t be disappointed with the 210s.
Last edited by Nestucca; 11/27/21. Reason: Add content
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 24,249 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 24,249 Likes: 4 |
I've never had a bang- flop with a Barnes bullet. Seems to take them a while to bleed. Lots of bang- flops with Berger. That said, they have their place. Bergers blow up - that's what they do. If you get lucky, they blow up in such a way the animal goes down fast. If you get unlucky, they blow up in such a way you never see the animal again. Is your hunting plan to depend on luck? Latest Berger victim, a 168 VLD from a .280 Ackley a few days ago, with exit showing. Definitely a blow-up... ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/jGHmcAG.jpg) an amax would have put down that buck quicker nice one
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Joined: Dec 2012
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
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I dont believe the 3,000fps thing with Bergers, my nephew and I just killed 2 bulls this year with 215's at 3100fps in my 30-28 and I've killed a bunch of bucks and bulls with the 140 Berger starting at 3220fps in my 6.5x300wsm and all performed like they were suppose too.
A 210 or 215 out of an 8 twist isn't gonna act like a 210 or 215 out of a 10 twist either.
Last edited by sherm_61; 12/05/21.
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 8,295
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I dont believe the 3,000fps thing with Bergers, my nephew and I just killed 2 bulls this year with 215's at 3100fps in my 30-28 and I've killed a bunch of bucks and bulls with the 140 Berger starting at 3220fps in my 6.5x300wsm and all performed like they were suppose too.
A 210 or 215 out of an 8 twist isn't gonna act like a 210 or 215 out of a 10 twist either. at what distances did these Berger bullets work so well ,that`s the biggest factor.
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,981
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,981 |
The 140 was 100-890 and 800 on 2 bucks were the farthest 100 the shortest. Bull 75 yards closet and 590 and 600 farthest.
The 215's were 330 and 355 this year
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Joined: May 2017
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2017
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Dennis,
My buds and I have had many bang-flops with Barnes TTSX’s in various fast stepping cartridges. Granted, not all were bang-flops but dang near it. I can’t speak to other bullets mentioned since most of my experience has been limited to Speer Grand Slams, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, and TTSX’s over the past 34 years. I tend to stick with what works for me and I try to refrain from slinging poo at other folks choices that I have never used personally or in my hunt groups. One of our buds has had tremendous success with Norma Oryx bullets in several calibers, up I haven’t used them. Happy Trails
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
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Joined: Dec 2019
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2019
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I've never had a bang- flop with a Barnes bullet. Seems to take them a while to bleed. Lots of bang- flops with Berger. That said, they have their place. Bergers blow up - that's what they do. If you get lucky, they blow up in such a way the animal goes down fast. If you get unlucky, they blow up in such a way you never see the animal again. Is your hunting plan to depend on luck? I've killed way too many animals with them to say they " blow up". They have such a sharp meplat that they typically penetrate well into vitals before "blowing up". I've never seen one blow up on the surface. I have seen it with Amax, Sierra match kings and a few others. If you're hunting timber with Bergers you're using the wrong bullet. Better bullets for saving meat. If you want to swat one down, the Bergers are very reliable at this. Like I've said, I've killed/ seen killed way too many head to think otherwise. Boom!!! THIS^^^ Yes I agree also.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,485
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,485 |
I would take Berger word that these are great for paper target and larger varmints...
No way I would use this on an Elk.. These are NOT hunting bullets.. We live in a world where we have tons of bullets to choose from. Why would anyone use a frangible bullet on an Elk?? Honestly, it doesn't seen ethical to me.
Its a shame that people aren't more educated than they are.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
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Seen 210’s bidness via 300 rum, antelope, elk and deer. Wasn’t impressed, neither was Tyler. Antelope never even flinched, walked a fair amount, tipped over. Deer/elk same way… from what some dummy’s say, I guess you gotta drill out the tips??? 😂😂
I’ll take something that “works”… 👍😎 Yeah, if they won’t open at RUM speeds, something isn’t right. If they tipped over I'd bet they opened and worked... Never mind that there is plenty in print that they go in a bit before opening. DRT. Its due to shot placement. Not bullet construction. in fact walk a ways and fall over, thats about perfect for my tastes. If you want that DRT you need to put any bullet where it needs to be. Exactly. Sheep and Goats are a prime example. And if you are relying on shock then I'd say you probably should not be hunting them.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,485 |
Have suggested this before in various places, but tend to believe that one reason some people have problems with penetration when using Berger VLDs is pushing them to high muzzle velocities--apparently because "long-range bullet" still equates to muzzle velocities well over 3000 fps with many hunters.
Have never used Berger Hunting VLDs stated at over 3000 fps, and have also never seen one disintegrate on impact. Yet they have expanded very well at ranges out to 600 yards.
Years ago, in fact, I tried to "blow up" a Berger VLD on bone, as I recall a 168 VLD started at around 2850-2900 fps from a .30-06. The "test" animal was a feral billy goat in New Zealand, weighing around 200 pounds. I'd already killed it with a lung shot behind the shoulders, but put one through the big joint of the shoulder at 10 feet. The bullet worked the ways Berger Hunting VLDs normally do at such velocities , not expanding until it passed through the bone and entered the chest.
But have heard from other hunters who somehow decided that starting Hunting VLDs at well over 3000 fps would work well at shorter range. One of these was a guy who was shooting Texas feral pigs under the typical corn-feeder at around 100 yards, using the 140-grain VLD from a .264 Winchester Magnum at well over 3000 fps. He reported bullet blow-ups with shoulder shots. Well, gee!
Its simply amazing to me that anyone thats been around hunting or loading a bit couldn't take an educated guess that somewhat more frangible bullets and high speed shouldn't mix. I mean its just that easy. Almost like slow rounds and long distances barnes might not be the best choice. Though 2300 worked again on a TTSX the other evening. Just fine. I'm not just sure where common sense went to. Though at times even I have a lack of it, generally speaking have had no issues. And the simplicity of knowing that if you are at or over 3000 fps MV maybe you should think a bit harder about choice.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jul 2021
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2021
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I have not shot Elk with the 210 Berger's but have taken a couple of Whitetail and mule deer.
Last edited by winfw01; 12/23/21.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,121
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
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I've never had a bang- flop with a Barnes bullet. Seems to take them a while to bleed. Lots of bang- flops with Berger. That said, they have their place. Bergers blow up - that's what they do. If you get lucky, they blow up in such a way the animal goes down fast. If you get unlucky, they blow up in such a way you never see the animal again. Is your hunting plan to depend on luck? I've killed way too many animals with them to say they " blow up". They have such a sharp meplat that they typically penetrate well into vitals before "blowing up". I've never seen one blow up on the surface. I have seen it with Amax, Sierra match kings and a few others. If you're hunting timber with Bergers you're using the wrong bullet. Better bullets for saving meat. If you want to swat one down, the Bergers are very reliable at this. Like I've said, I've killed/ seen killed way too many head to think otherwise. Dennis, Sort of wondering why you don't like Bergers in the timber. Like you I have never seen one blow up or fail to penetrate in hundreds of critters from very close to 4 digits on the range finder. To the guys who don't have experience the termial performance of the Berger is the main feature, accuracy and high BC are just the icing on the cake. That said don't buy any so they can catch up with the demand. Thanks.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 409
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 409 |
I've never had a bang- flop with a Barnes bullet. Seems to take them a while to bleed. Lots of bang- flops with Berger. That said, they have their place. Bergers blow up - that's what they do. If you get lucky, they blow up in such a way the animal goes down fast. If you get unlucky, they blow up in such a way you never see the animal again. Is your hunting plan to depend on luck? I've killed way too many animals with them to say they " blow up". They have such a sharp meplat that they typically penetrate well into vitals before "blowing up". I've never seen one blow up on the surface. I have seen it with Amax, Sierra match kings and a few others. If you're hunting timber with Bergers you're using the wrong bullet. Better bullets for saving meat. If you want to swat one down, the Bergers are very reliable at this. Like I've said, I've killed/ seen killed way too many head to think otherwise. Dennis, Sort of wondering why you don't like Bergers in the timber. Like you I have never seen one blow up or fail to penetrate in hundreds of critters from very close to 4 digits on the range finder. To the guys who don't have experience the termial performance of the Berger is the main feature, accuracy and high BC are just the icing on the cake. That said don't buy any so they can catch up with the demand. Thanks. Dollar to a dime the nay-sayers have never even loaded a Berger bullet. I've seen the 6.5mm 140 grain (started at 3200 fps from a 264 WM) do some things that most people wouldn't believe, including a 25 yard quartering to shot on a big Bull Elk, one and done. he piled up about 10 yards away. Oh well, more for us to buy!
Last edited by 2five7; 01/28/22.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,485
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,485 |
I would take Berger word that these are great for paper target and larger varmints...
No way I would use this on an Elk.. These are NOT hunting bullets.. We live in a world where we have tons of bullets to choose from. Why would anyone use a frangible bullet on an Elk?? Honestly, it doesn't seen ethical to me.
always nice to see that people just believe what they read. I've used the target bullets since the 90s on game and have never had a single issue at all. As noted they hold together a bit better than the hunting versions. It won't perform any worse than a hunting cup and core lead tip or plastic tip of your choice. Rock on as they say.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 8,295
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 8,295 |
i will say this i never ever have had any problems with Nosler Partitions or Swift A-frames and both of these bullets shot well on paper too. but as a rifle loony its sure fun to try other brands and types of bullets. so next fall 2022 i myself will be trying these Hammer bullets on deer and antelope , but if i do draw a tag and go black bear hunting i will still use old faithful Nosler Partition !
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,981
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,981 |
I've never had a bang- flop with a Barnes bullet. Seems to take them a while to bleed. Lots of bang- flops with Berger. That said, they have their place. Bergers blow up - that's what they do. If you get lucky, they blow up in such a way the animal goes down fast. If you get unlucky, they blow up in such a way you never see the animal again. Is your hunting plan to depend on luck? I've killed way too many animals with them to say they " blow up". They have such a sharp meplat that they typically penetrate well into vitals before "blowing up". I've never seen one blow up on the surface. I have seen it with Amax, Sierra match kings and a few others. If you're hunting timber with Bergers you're using the wrong bullet. Better bullets for saving meat. If you want to swat one down, the Bergers are very reliable at this. Like I've said, I've killed/ seen killed way too many head to think otherwise. Dennis, Sort of wondering why you don't like Bergers in the timber. Like you I have never seen one blow up or fail to penetrate in hundreds of critters from very close to 4 digits on the range finder. To the guys who don't have experience the termial performance of the Berger is the main feature, accuracy and high BC are just the icing on the cake. That said don't buy any so they can catch up with the demand. Thanks. Dollar to a dime the nay-sayers have never even loaded a Berger bullet. I've seen the 6.5mm 140 grain (started at 3200 fps from a 264 WM) do some things that most people wouldn't believe, including a 25 yard quartering to shot on a big Bull Elk, one and done. he piled up about 10 yards away. Oh well, more for us to buy! Dig. Ding Ding, winner winner chicken dinner
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