Well I had the brass brush for a number of years and I recently went to Cabelas and they have the nylon bore brush. I know the bronze brush cleans but when I use a patch it still is (bronze) it is still showing streaks after many tries. This is from the brass itself.
So I bought the Nylon brush and jag (both stainless) and no more blue streak.
While lookaround at custom barrels a couple of them (douglas is one) state "Do not use stainless steel brushes or abrasive cleaners in barrel). I am not using stainless steel brushes but does is stainless body ok? I presume its ok. And this is for a coupe of SPS rifles that the bores may be iffy...
I recently clean my barrel and did a couple of boretech swaps or three and then did the nylon brush with stainless steel and there are no streaks on the patch...much better than before.
I'm using bronze brushes less these days, although they are still useful for some tasks. I use them most on pistol barrels to remove powder fouling, which they do quickly.
Wipe Out has mostly eliminated the need for them when cleaning my rifles.
For ~5 years now I've had a medical condition that makes shooting really small groups an iffy thing on some days. With that in mind, I was still beginning to believe that the barrel on my H&R/Sako .222 was beginning to go south.
Just a couple of months back I read a thread here on bore cleaning and decided to give the Bore-tech Cleaners a try. Cutting to the chase, I have decided that there is barrel life left in the .222. Sub inch groups are routine again, and I put 5 into 5/8" last week on a good day
Actually talked to a Bore-tech rep on the phone and he recommended wetting thoroughly with a patch and then10 or 15 passes with a nylon brush wetted in the bore guide slot.
I got a lot of stuff out of what I thought was a fairly clean bore, and the rifle is obviously shooting better. I'm not sure that wetting the bore brush did much for me. It appeared to go right through the brush and pool into the bore guide. Overall, the process worked.
I remain a bit foggy on using copper solvents with brass jags, as I start getting blue on the patch as soon as I apply the solvent. Like a lot of things, perfection may only be in the end result.
My guess is that as more shooters buy bore-scopes, like the very affordable Teslong, the Campfire will see far fewer posts on what "works" for cleaning rifle bores.
But maybe not.
Ignorance in this thread is unbelievable.
I have my own rifle range, load and shoot out of heated and AC house on the spot. Rain or shine, we shoot.
Couple of things, carbon builds up on it's self. If you let carbon stay in the barrel, it gets so hard you will not get it out unless you use 600-800grit silicone carbide paste from brownell's.
As people talk about this or that working, MUCH is left out:
A. caliber used
B. number of rounds fired
C. verified with clean patches or a bore scope.
I can tell you that I have most chemicals on the market today. I shoot everything from 223 customs to 7 STW customs. There is a great difference in cleaning a 223 that has fired 40 rounds and cleaning a 7 Mag that has fired 40 rounds....jeez, where is the common sense.
Issio and Montana Extreme have the best plastic brushes, but I use bronze bristle brushes. The first 50 strokes on the bronze bristle brush does the heavy work, then wrap a patch around the brush for use with JB, Montana Extreme Copper Cream, or Flitz bore cleaner.
The comment that some carbon left in the barrel is a good thing, this is absolutely not true. I build my own benchrest and long range hunting rifles and you can see groups open up as the carbon starts to build up, within 40-60 shots. The only constant you have is getting the carbon out, as if you do not get the carbon out, it builds up on it's self....at some point it is new barrel time due to carbon.
Accuracy is a relative thing, and not many actually know when their flyers are due to carbon as they blame it on wind, or shooting technique.
Guys, if you do not have a borescope, you are as ignorant as Jed Clampet on how clean your barrel actually is. Teslong has one heck of a bore scope now that plugs into your lap top for $80, or they have a nice one with a screen for $139.
I have every cleaning product that Wipe Out makes, Kg, Montana Extreme, Shooter's Choice, and some others. Bronze bristle brush within the first 50 strokes on the brush does the work. Those that use bronze bristle brushes or plastic brushes, use your caliper and measure the dia on the brush every 10 strokes...get ready for a shock.
I recently had a retired friend send me three barrels he had "shot out". I got them, cleaned them, examined the throat and bore. All they needed was cleaning and the bullet seated out a tad further toward the lands. He was cleaning with patches on a tight fitting punch type of jag.
Also, moisture can accumulate under the carbon and cause some serious rust pits.
Bottom line, people are not set up to clean their guns to make it easy, and they do not like cleaning guns to begin with. So, half azz is good enough, call it done.
For deer hunters that shoot few rounds per year, half azz will get you buy. Amazing how many just pull a "Snake" through their bores and call it good.
I have found a penetrating oil called, "Free All" that has a chemical in it that will dissolve carbon over time. The company sells a 14 oz pumper can that will last a very long time, and is also the best I have ever seen in breaking loose rusted on bolts. Free All is a very advanced penetrating oil and far superior to some more popular penetrating oils.
I will not make any comments about some of the Wonder cleaners mentioned that were about as effective as Kerosene.
If you are prudent and want a good bore cleaner with good brushes, google, "Ed's Red" bore cleaner, you make it up yourself.
Summary, if you do not have a bore scope, you have absolutely no idea what your cleaning method and chemicals are doing....totally ignorant of what is going on. If you don't believe me, you will the first time you run your Bore scope down your bore! PRIDE is one heck of a butt kicker.
The guy who made the comment about powder fouling is Dan Lilja, who knows more than a little bit about such things. Here's part of his comments on barrel cleaning from his website:
"It is important to break-in a barrel. The jacket material must be removed after every shot during the initial few rounds. If this isn’t done the areas of the barrel that fouled will tend to pick up more fouling and it will build on itself. It is important to get a layer of powder fouling on top of the lands & grooves. This hard deposit will prevent the copper from stripping off the bullets. However, if the internal finish of the barrel is too rough the barrel will never be completely broken-in and fouling will always be a problem. Some barrels can’t be broken-in.
"A similar phenomonon can exist if the shooter uses an abrasive-type cleaner too often. The abrasives are very effective at removing all traces of both powder and jacket fouling. I mentioned that a barrel can be too smooth. The abrasives can get a barrel too clean as well and in effect the shooter is rebreaking-in the barrel again every time he cleans. This can end up in the dog-chasing-his-tail scenario. The shooter thinks the barrel is a fouler, as evidenced by the copper accumulations in the barrel. He works hard at removing the copper, resorting to using an abrasive cleaner. But when he does he removes the desirable layer of carbon fouling left by the powder and exposes fresh steel ready to grab some more copper off the bullet on the next shot. The cycle repeats itself. Like the dog the best way out is to go lay down and take a nap."
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I'm not completely ignorant without a borescope. I've always shined a very bright flashlight around the muzzle crown area and looked down as far as I can see which is probably a 1/2" or so. I generally judge the cleanliness of the remaining barrel by what I see around the crown. I do agree that a good bore scope may be the ticket for a better inspection, but I can see alot around the crown. And yes, I've found a bronze brush does do a better job of loosening the tough carbon fouling than mere solvant and patches.
You're wrong about being able to tell much about fouling by examining the half-inch behind the muzzle. It can show up anywhere in a bore, often when there's little or none at the muzzle.
Also might mention that since that Dan Lilja article I just quoted appeared in Precision Shooting in 2000, more than one very effective carbon solvent has appeared on the market. I know because I use them, and they do not require a bronze brush to remove as much carbon as desired--which I firmly believe, both to what Lilja says and my experience, that a little carbon left in the bore does indeed enhance accuracy, and help reduce/delay copper fouling.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Dan, also made that comment a few years back. Things have advanced greatly since then. I am familiar with everything in your quote. I don't want to pick apart the many wrong things in that quote, they are just dated.
If you were to post that quote on Accurateshooter.com, the board would light up with many tearing apart the many things wrong in that quote that does not apply at this time. Gun Bore cleaning technology has grown exponentially since that quote first came out.
Competitive shooters are shooting much better, and clean barrels are one of the main reasons.
John, it is hard to tell a guy that does not like to clean, and will not clean a barrel properly that he is shortening up the life of his barrel.
While we talk about the gun cleaning,posters do not put in perspective whether the he is a casual shooter, casual shooter only verifying zero and hunting, or competitive shooter. So, you have no idea the amount of shooting that the poster is doing or the intensity of the calibers that are being shot.
While one guy thinks that 3/4" is great for his application, the next guy is having a new barrel installed at 3/4" groups.
No doubt that as Teslong bore scopes get to be more plentiful among shooters, shooters will become their own experts with their cleaning techniques for their personal application.
As far as carbon in the barrel, the burning chamber usually extends as far as 17" or so into the barrel or more on big magnums. Depending on the powder used, there is often a thicker area of carbon build from the throat as far as
7" or more inches into the barrel. This carbon will build up to a point to where it is land height, with some difficulty removing that carbon Plug. At a certain point, that carbon will get to be harder than the barrel steel, diamonds are made of carbon subjected to the extremes of heat and pressure.
I am a shooter looking for the extremes in accuracy, 1/4" groups and smaller. So, my application is applicable to my shooting discipline. My Magnum deer rifles are 7 Mags, and they shoot ragged holes with Krieger, Brux, Hart, and Bartline barrels. As the carbon starts to build up, I start to loose accuracy. The constant in the equation is getting the bore clean to bare metal, and I rarely use abrasives because I do not let the carbon build up to that point. If I let the carbon build up, then it would be forever increasing over time, little by little.
My 308 with their Krieger barrels shoot sub 1/4" groups at 100 yards, sub 3/8" at 200, and an inch or a tad less at 300 when the wind is not howling. R#15, Varget, xbr 8208, and H4895 leave some carbon in the barrel, better use new bronze bristle brushes when you start cleaning them after 60 rounds. When the barrel is clean, two fouling shots and back to dumping the bullets in a bullet hole at 100 yards with a 10-50 Sightron III, good muzzle break. I have never seen any chemical on a patch remove the carbon on a 308, it is always good bronze bristle brushes. I don't worry much with Copper fouling because it is long gone by the time I get to the bottom layer of carbon fouling.
I could go on and on. Guys, buy a Teslong bore scope, find out what you do not know.
I guess these little groups I'm shooting are lying to me, and like Keith I've been shooting and cleaning for a long time. I change up what I do based on what I see around the muzzle. I wouldn't call my process wrong. It's just using what I have. It's kinda hard to explain except I know what I'm looking for regarding a clean barrel and a clean muzzle area. I look for clean crisp well defined rifling edges. My whelen is a good example of a good barrel. I clean it until it's got this seasoned look and I know I'm done. The rifling is well defined, the bore shines, and like I said it can shoot some pretty good groups. That 280 of mine is another story. I have a time with it's tendency to lay down quite a layer of copper wash.
I have several very accurate rifles as well, but have found many exceptions to what you have observed about powder fouling.
One would be the Remington 700 Varmint .223 I purchased new 21 years ago, shortly before Ramshot TAC appeared. When the barrel was new it would group in the low .2s with the right handloads, for 5 shots at 100. The first time I used TAC in the rifle, it was fired over 500 rounds without losing any accuracy--and the bore-scope showed only the faintest hint of either powder or copper fouling. I cleaned it anyway, just to see what happened, and the accuracy went south for about 15 rounds until the bore "fouled" again.
It kept shooting the same way for over 2000 rounds, including the almost total absence of any fouling, before the throat started to erode, whereupon I smoothed the throat with a few fire-lapping rounds, then treated it with Dyna Bore Coat--which had appeared in the meantime. It went back to not fouling enough to affect accuracy for hundreds of rounds again.
Have seen the same thing with many other DBC'd barrels--and even when they did start powder-fouling, it was easily removed with KG 1Carbon Remover. Same deal with the Hart barrel on my 6mm PPC bench rifle, though it has never been DBC'd, and it shoots in the mid-one with more than one load, all featuring very clean-burning powder. Clean it around every 50 rounds.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
