Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Gotta love SR's...

David, I also have an SR that's 10.7xx - it was a project gun I snagged and refinished the stock. No circled S on the bottom of the barrel, though it does have the serial number.

Interesting that mine got a concave, 1895 style forearm while yours has a straight, 1899 style.

It's a walkabout gun now..

I’ve tried to interpret what “SR” was by the context of posts, like seeing a word in a novel I’ve never read before…. Welp, we’re on page 2 and I still haven’t cracked the code. What the heck is a “SR”?

Thanks Team,
Jake

It baffled me for a little while too because my initial thought was Saddle Ring, but none of the rifles pictured had a saddle ring. Eventually I woke up to the fact that they were talking about Short Rifles.

Don't feel bad Jake. I think it took me years to stop confusing SR, and SRC. Short Rifle, and Saddle Ring Carbine.

I think the first 2 years I was here I was constantly being confused by SR vs SRC..

And the funny thing is, I haven't the FAINTEST idea where Murray came with SR / Short Rifle. The gun was catalogued as "Saddle Gun". Maybe he thought the model 1899 SG would be too confusing.

I was blind but now I see! Thanks, guys.

Rory, serial #10.449 has a concave 1895 forearm.
Jake, sorry about that, some of us are into the subject to the point we don't think to clarify what we're are talking about. We sort of develop our own language on a particular subject. Doug Murray coined a lot of things that we use every day, such as designating the round 26" barrel 1899 as an 1899A, the octagon 26" barrel rifle 1899B, etc. These designations came from the telegraph codes used to order the rifles. The 1899 round 26" barrel rifle and the short rifle both had telegraph codes that started with an A so the 26" barrel rifle was the 1899A and the 22" barrel rifle was 1899A SR.
I've included photos of a couple of pages from catalog #15.
Note the codes for the 26" barrel rifles.

the 22" barrel rifle, cataloged as saddle gun. Murray called it the short rifle as mentioned above.

...and this Forum has created a few of our own:

The Speigle rifles (several variations) were originally thought to be Salesman Samples and were called that.

The Model RT was not know but found to be a short run non-cataloged variation of the R.

The LBC (Lever Bose Code) is a stamp in front of the trigger area with an inspectors and production date code used 1949 into 1971. This allowed us to connect serials with years produced which was not know before.

...etc.

David, thank you for the detailed response. I didn't think to consult my copy of Murray's book for the answer. I was told once "If you're in a group and don't know an acronym, ask! Somebody else is probably wondering the same thing."

Murray talked about the "saddle gun" and called it the 1899A short rifle on pages 3-12 and 3-13. He mentions several times that it was cataloged as the short rifle.

He also said the late models had SAVAGE MODEL 99 stamp on the receiver ring. Murray's is a guide.. lots of interpretation needed.

This is as clear as mud what are you calling a SR ??.Is that any pre war with a barrel shorter than 22"

What is this about any gun with a half round and half oct. why would it not be a SR their are what

has been called a CSR all the time I have collected Savage 1899 - 99's

It has always been as I recall any thing pre war 22" or less was a SR now a few here think they

have to change it to what end crazy

Nobody is changing anything..

But we're reverse engineering ledger entries to determine a telegraph code that was used to order a rifle. That's often problematic.. As I said, it's mostly semantics.

The ledger would say the same exact thing whether it was recorded on the original order slip as:
1) a Saddle Gun with special order octagon barrel
2) or a Sporting Rifle, Octagon barrel with short 22" barrel and shotgun buttplate
Ledger Entry Would Say : 22", sgbp, O
The two order slips produce the same exact rifle.

So whether you call it a 22" barreled 1899B (which is what I would do), or whether you call it an 1899B SR - they both describe the same thing.

It's quite possible that some rifles were ordered both ways... we'll never know, the order slips were never saved.


This is similar to a 1910 rifle that has 26" round barrel, standard walnut stock, crescent buttplate, pistol grip and A3 checkering.

1) It might be recorded in the ledger as P/G, A3 chkr, R (pistol grip / A3 checkering / Round barrel)
2) Or it might be recorded as CD, R (1899CD, Round barrel)

Both entries describe the same exact rifle.
Both ways of ordering it would have cost $24.50.
Am I saying that CD's don't exist if I call it an 1899A with pistol grip and A3? No.. it's just a name for a configuration, the rifle is what it is.

Fug,

For me, a Short Rifle (1899-A SR) has a 22" (only 22" round barrel) barrel and a shotgun butt (some early ones had the crescent butt but it tales a letter to verify that it is not a cut down rifle). Any with a barrel other than round takes a letter to verify that it is a special order and not a cut down rifle. Might also be a takedown version (1899-A SR TD)

Production was till the 1899-A SR was replaced with the 99-C and 99-D.

If you include anything with a 22" barrel or less then you are talking about short barreled rifles as a general category which would include 1899-A SR, 1899-F, 1899-H and special orders with 22" or less barrels.

I don't know what a CSR is. New to me.

I intended to say it was cataloged as a saddle rifle.
We could throw Murray's definitions out and just go by the catalog names. Of course the catalogs have errors too.

He meant 1899C SR, versus an 1899A SR. He has some gorgeous ones.

And it's almost certain that some folks ordered guns as "an octagon barrel SR". And Savage would have known what they meant, just as I know what somebody means when they say it.

But I personally think of SR's as a round barreled model. That's how it's always listed in catalogs, and there were never any telegraph codes for octagon or half-octagon versions.

But I also know what somebody means when they say an 1895 SR, 1899B SR, or 1899C SR. Special order rifle with 22" barrel and shotgun buttplate.

I'll probably regret chiming in.

I think I follow what all have said above.

To some, a short rifle can be 1895-SR, 1899A-SR, 1899B-SR or 1899C-SR whether or not cataloged, advertised, etc. In any case, a factory letter can prove whether or not it left the factory short or not.
To some, a short rifle is a 1899-SR which is equivalent to 1899A-SR. All others are special order rifles that happen to be short, not SR's. In any case, a factory letter can prove whether or not it left the factory short or not.

If a model 1899, round barrel, 22" is laying on a gun show table it is not automatic that it is a SR or special order. Could be a cut 1899A that was previously 26". In any case, a factory letter can prove whether or not it left the factory short or not.
If a model 1895/99, B or C is laying on a gun show table it is not automatic that it is a SR or special order. Could be a cut 1895/99, B or C that was previously 26". In any case, a factory letter can prove whether or not it left the factory short or not.

The point is that they all exist in a 22" format from the factory regardless of what Savage cataloged/advertised, Murray called them, etc. and they all require documentation as proof they are original or later cut down.

Does it matter whether or not a rifle is perceived as "standard" or "special order" 22" as long as documentation confirms 22"? Not to me. (and don't further muddy things by asking "what about 20"? Same documentation rules apply)

Savage models and variations have always been challenging to quantify and simplify. The book writers have tried as has the Savage Collector Forum with good success. But still areas of outliers apparently.

Personally I have no problem calling any of them short rifles because that's what they are. What matters is factory or cut.

Carry on......

Is a pre-war F with a factory 20” barrel a short rifle?

99F's started life about 1921 with lightweight barrels. The 22 HP, 303 and 30-30 had 20" barrels. The 250-3000 had a 22" barrel and the 300 (when introduced) had 24" barrels. When the 99F's were changed to the medium weight barrel about 1926/27 the first three calibers went to 22" barrels, the 250-3000 and 300 remained at 22" and 24" respectively. Since the barrels were lightweight or medium weight they had integral base front sights. If the barrel had been shortened after it left the factory it probably won't have the integral base. Confused yet? All of the 250-3000's had 22" barrels but maybe not. With Savage never say never.

Way to go Ted... What is your opinion? Hmmmm.

I'm not the authority, but I had thought we were talking about 1899's and included 1895's in the discussion because they were standard 26" and could be supplied in a shorter variation, thus a short rifle.
Not 99's at all.