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Campfire 'Bwana
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Some may remember the case of the muzzleloading hunter from PA who shot and killed a Texas bowhunter last September in SW CO during the early muzzleloader season. The two seasons overlap.. The PA hunter was hunting with a partner, and the partner was trying to bugle in a bull. The hunter heard what he thought was an elk and saw movement in the trees and shot the bowhunter. The shooter was originally charged with criminally negligent homicide which is a class 5 felony in CO. He was just formally charged with manslaughter, which sounds less serious but is actually an upgraded charge since it's a class 4 felony that carries a possible jail sentence of 2-6 years and up to $500 K in fines. The shooter pled not guilty to the charges and the trial date was set for May 16th. From the attached article it sounds like they were trying to work out a plea deal, couldn't agree, and the state upgraded the charges. That could be a negotiating tactic? Sounds like the shooter has hired some expert witnesses and plans to fight this in court. It'll be interesting to see what the experts will testify on, if it goes to trial: https://www.durangoherald.com/artic...hooting-of-bow-hunter-in-dolores-county/
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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How could an expert witness ever convince anyone with a brain that a person looks like an elk? What part of the person did the shooter think was the rack? I'm hoping he realized it was a human before he started field dressing.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'd like to see what the experts would testify on too. My guess is, it has to be related to human perception and how the mind can play tricks on you, i.e., you see what you want to see.
Because I can't see what else they'd be testifying on. The facts are pretty cut and dried.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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There was a push in CO for CPW to require blaze orange for archers during ML season because of this.The Colorado Bow Hunters organization has powerful lobby in CO and pressured CPW to not require it. So now CPW only recommends it in the Big Game brochure.The whiny archers said it would reduce their success rate
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The whiny archers said it would reduce their success rate Uh-oh, now you've done it.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Maybe the defense will attempt to put blame on the state for "poor regulations allowing overlapping seasons."
I can't see a solid defense at all.
And I can't see how I could live with myself if I killed another hunter.
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Thanks for the update Smoke.
The info (story) I was told the hunter was accompanied by two of his friends as they were bugling in what they thought was an elk. One of the friends was close by and said or signaled not to shoot because he wasn't sure if it was an elk but the hunter shot anyway. Suggesting that the hunter shot at movement.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yeah, he admitted to shooting at movement, said he saw "a flash of white in the Pines."
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Hey saddlesore, I've been a whiny archer for 55 years in Wi and never have taken a shot at a flash of color. What are you insinuating ?
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Yeah, he admitted to shooting at movement, said he saw "a flash of white in the Pines." If they were elk hunting then why would he shoot at a "flash of white?" I grew up in CO and have killed 25 elk. I haven't seen a single white hair on any of them. Elk are tan and black with a yellowish rump patch. If he saw white then he should have known he wasn't looking at an elk.
You get out of life what you are willing to accept. If you ain't happy, do something about it!
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A azzhole from Pennsylvania who supposedly was a hunter safety instructor shot at a elk that was in front of me. He told the guide and me that "he saw me in the scope and knew he wouldn't hit me" I did end up shooting 2 nice bulls that day, well 2 raghorn 5x5's but nice for a Florida cracker.
You need to know what the he'll your shooting at and where the he'll they were standing when you shot.
Life is good live it while you can.
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There was a push in CO for CPW to require blaze orange for archers during ML season because of this.The Colorado Bow Hunters organization has powerful lobby in CO and pressured CPW to not require it. So now CPW only recommends it in the Big Game brochure.The whiny archers said it would reduce their success rate This whiny ass Colorado bowhunter is glad I still have the choice of whether to wear orange or not during muzzleloader season.
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The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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A person not wearing Blaze orange is a weak excuse for a shooting like this. What ever happened to identifying a target first.
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Maybe the defense will attempt to put blame on the state for "poor regulations allowing overlapping seasons."
I can't see a solid defense at all.
And I can't see how I could live with myself if I killed another hunter. Bet you are right, they will try and hang it on the state.
I may not be smart but I can lift heavy objects
I have a shotgun so I have no need for a 30-06.....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yeah, he admitted to shooting at movement, said he saw "a flash of white in the Pines." And this with a ML. What part of the 'elk' was he shooting at? The lungs? ML hunting requires carefully picking a target spot and that requires seeing enough of the animal to know where that spot is.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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How could an expert witness ever convince anyone with a brain that a person looks like an elk? What part of the person did the shooter think was the rack? I'm hoping he realized it was a human before he started field dressing. this brings up the old deer hunter /sausage maker Ed Gein , he was known as the butcher of Plainfield ,Wisconsin back in 1957. the joke was where i lived Ed Gein had 2 deer hunters and a game warden hanging back behind his shed on opening weekend of deer season. as kids we had just started deer hunting so that kind of spook us a little bit .
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Face shine and movement is going to give you away with all else being equal at bow distance if you have the wind. I think 300 square inches is a bit much. A blaze orange ball cap is all you need for any of the big game hunting.
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A azzhole from Pennsylvania who supposedly was a hunter safety instructor shot at a elk that was in front of me. He told the guide and me that "he saw me in the scope and knew he wouldn't hit me" I did end up shooting 2 nice bulls that day, well 2 raghorn 5x5's but nice for a Florida cracker.
You need to know what the he'll your shooting at and where the he'll they were standing when you shot. Where were you hunting that allows 2 branch antlered bulls to be taken? Asking for a friend…..
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
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A azzhole from Pennsylvania who supposedly was a hunter safety instructor shot at a elk that was in front of me. He told the guide and me that "he saw me in the scope and knew he wouldn't hit me" I did end up shooting 2 nice bulls that day, well 2 raghorn 5x5's but nice for a Florida cracker.
You need to know what the he'll your shooting at and where the he'll they were standing when you shot. Where were you hunting that allows 2 branch antlered bulls to be taken? Asking for a friend….. Saw that as well but waiting for someone else to comment on that.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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What ever happened to identifying a target first. Plus they were hunting bulls and there are antler point restrictions. No way to know whether it was a legal bull without a clear look at the antlers.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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If you shoot at movement, and kill a human, it's on you. If you go to prison for a while, it might get others to think before they shoot.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Face shine and movement is going to give you away with all else being equal at bow distance if you have the wind. I think 300 square inches is a bit much. A blaze orange ball cap is all you need for any of the big game hunting. The requirement here for firearms hunters is 500 square inches. That's about equal to a vest and a hat.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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A azzhole from Pennsylvania who supposedly was a hunter safety instructor shot at a elk that was in front of me. He told the guide and me that "he saw me in the scope and knew he wouldn't hit me" I did end up shooting 2 nice bulls that day, well 2 raghorn 5x5's but nice for a Florida cracker.
You need to know what the he'll your shooting at and where the he'll they were standing when you shot. Where were you hunting that allows 2 branch antlered bulls to be taken? Asking for a friend….. Saw that as well but waiting for someone else to comment on that. I doubt we get a reply…..
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
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Face shine and movement is going to give you away with all else being equal at bow distance if you have the wind. I think 300 square inches is a bit much. A blaze orange ball cap is all you need for any of the big game hunting. The requirement here for firearms hunters is 500 square inches. That's about equal to a vest and a hat. I should of known that living here. I wear a coat/jacket/parka that's all blaze along with the hat during elk rifle.
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A azzhole from Pennsylvania who supposedly was a hunter safety instructor shot at a elk that was in front of me. He told the guide and me that "he saw me in the scope and knew he wouldn't hit me" I did end up shooting 2 nice bulls that day, well 2 raghorn 5x5's but nice for a Florida cracker.
You need to know what the he'll your shooting at and where the he'll they were standing when you shot. Where were you hunting that allows 2 branch antlered bulls to be taken? Asking for a friend….. Saw that as well but waiting for someone else to comment on that. Why wouldn't I reply, it was one he'll of a hunt. We were herd shooting elk after a 7 hour horse back ride. Our two guides rode down to the fence line of a ranch that bordered BLM land that had alfalfa planted on it. They had 22lr pistols and would shoot and and holler every 5 or 10 minutes. The herd of 56 elk came my way like they were on a string. They were walking on the same trail that I had shot a 180 class mule deer on a hour earlier. The dickhead from Pennsylvania who was supposed to stay on the opposite side of the mountain heard my shot and came over to my side of the mountain. The elk were only 20 yards from me when he started shooting over my head with a 300. At that moment I said screw the elk and laid down and started yelling and cussing at the dumbazz. Once I got my shirt back together the fun began. I was definitely excited, shook up and pissed. I shot at the first bull and he just kept on running like I missed. Then I shot at the second bull and he never flinched. So I went back to the first bull and thought they must be running faster than I figured and I was shooting behind them. So I just put a little air in front of the lead bull and squeezed the trigger and down he went. At that moment I knew I had screwed up. There was 3 of us shooting at the bulls and I was the only one shooting Remington bronze points. And needless to say the guide found my little bronze point in the off side hide right behind the shoulder of the second bull I shot. One of the guys from Pennsylvania who was blasting away claimed the bull and everything worked out. My Dad and brother were hunting with me and would of claimed the other bull it there was any BS. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
Life is good live it while you can.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Idaho has no requirement for orange. They recommend it but leave it up to the hunters. One place we hunt a lot has a lot of busy hiking trails. As long as the hikers stay on the trails, the deer and elk ignore them. Almost none of the hikers wear orange but some worry about getting shot. Depending on where we plan to go, I sometimes don't wear orange in that area just so I don't attract the attention of some of the idiots. One time an anti-hunting biker asked me why I wasn't wearing orange. The question should have been why wasn't HE wearing orange. I had the gun and was unlikely to shoot myself. If I was going to do something really stupid, he'd be the target, not me.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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A azzhole from Pennsylvania who supposedly was a hunter safety instructor shot at a elk that was in front of me. He told the guide and me that "he saw me in the scope and knew he wouldn't hit me" I did end up shooting 2 nice bulls that day, well 2 raghorn 5x5's but nice for a Florida cracker.
You need to know what the he'll your shooting at and where the he'll they were standing when you shot. Where were you hunting that allows 2 branch antlered bulls to be taken? Asking for a friend….. Saw that as well but waiting for someone else to comment on that. Why wouldn't I reply, it was one he'll of a hunt. We were herd shooting elk after a 7 hour horse back ride. Our two guides rode down to the fence line of a ranch that bordered BLM land that had alfalfa planted on it. They had 22lr pistols and would shoot and and holler every 5 or 10 minutes. The herd of 56 elk came my way like they were on a string. They were walking on the same trail that I had shot a 180 class mule deer on a hour earlier. The dickhead from Pennsylvania who was supposed to stay on the opposite side of the mountain heard my shot and came over to my side of the mountain. The elk were only 20 yards from me when he started shooting over my head with a 300. At that moment I said screw the elk and laid down and started yelling and cussing at the dumbazz. Once I got my shirt back together the fun began. I was definitely excited, shook up and pissed. I shot at the first bull and he just kept on running like I missed. Then I shot at the second bull and he never flinched. So I went back to the first bull and thought they must be running faster than I figured and I was shooting behind them. So I just put a little air in front of the lead bull and squeezed the trigger and down he went. At that moment I knew I had screwed up. There was 3 of us shooting at the bulls and I was the only one shooting Remington bronze points. And needless to say the guide found my little bronze point in the off side hide right behind the shoulder of the second bull I shot. One of the guys from Pennsylvania who was blasting away claimed the bull and everything worked out. My Dad and brother were hunting with me and would of claimed the other bull it there was any BS. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. This has to be made up.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A azzhole from Pennsylvania who supposedly was a hunter safety instructor shot at a elk that was in front of me. He told the guide and me that "he saw me in the scope and knew he wouldn't hit me" I did end up shooting 2 nice bulls that day, well 2 raghorn 5x5's but nice for a Florida cracker.
You need to know what the he'll your shooting at and where the he'll they were standing when you shot. Where were you hunting that allows 2 branch antlered bulls to be taken? Asking for a friend….. Saw that as well but waiting for someone else to comment on that. Why wouldn't I reply, it was one he'll of a hunt. We were herd shooting elk after a 7 hour horse back ride. Our two guides rode down to the fence line of a ranch that bordered BLM land that had alfalfa planted on it. They had 22lr pistols and would shoot and and holler every 5 or 10 minutes. The herd of 56 elk came my way like they were on a string. They were walking on the same trail that I had shot a 180 class mule deer on a hour earlier. The dickhead from Pennsylvania who was supposed to stay on the opposite side of the mountain heard my shot and came over to my side of the mountain. The elk were only 20 yards from me when he started shooting over my head with a 300. At that moment I said screw the elk and laid down and started yelling and cussing at the dumbazz. Once I got my shirt back together the fun began. I was definitely excited, shook up and pissed. I shot at the first bull and he just kept on running like I missed. Then I shot at the second bull and he never flinched. So I went back to the first bull and thought they must be running faster than I figured and I was shooting behind them. So I just put a little air in front of the lead bull and squeezed the trigger and down he went. At that moment I knew I had screwed up. There was 3 of us shooting at the bulls and I was the only one shooting Remington bronze points. And needless to say the guide found my little bronze point in the off side hide right behind the shoulder of the second bull I shot. One of the guys from Pennsylvania who was blasting away claimed the bull and everything worked out. My Dad and brother were hunting with me and would of claimed the other bull it there was any BS. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Wow. What did your guides have to say to the guy who was shooting in your direction?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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A azzhole from Pennsylvania who supposedly was a hunter safety instructor shot at a elk that was in front of me. He told the guide and me that "he saw me in the scope and knew he wouldn't hit me" I did end up shooting 2 nice bulls that day, well 2 raghorn 5x5's but nice for a Florida cracker.
You need to know what the he'll your shooting at and where the he'll they were standing when you shot. Where were you hunting that allows 2 branch antlered bulls to be taken? Asking for a friend….. Saw that as well but waiting for someone else to comment on that. Why wouldn't I reply, it was one he'll of a hunt. We were herd shooting elk after a 7 hour horse back ride. Our two guides rode down to the fence line of a ranch that bordered BLM land that had alfalfa planted on it. They had 22lr pistols and would shoot and and holler every 5 or 10 minutes. The herd of 56 elk came my way like they were on a string. They were walking on the same trail that I had shot a 180 class mule deer on a hour earlier. The dickhead from Pennsylvania who was supposed to stay on the opposite side of the mountain heard my shot and came over to my side of the mountain. The elk were only 20 yards from me when he started shooting over my head with a 300. At that moment I said screw the elk and laid down and started yelling and cussing at the dumbazz. Once I got my shirt back together the fun began. I was definitely excited, shook up and pissed. I shot at the first bull and he just kept on running like I missed. Then I shot at the second bull and he never flinched. So I went back to the first bull and thought they must be running faster than I figured and I was shooting behind them. So I just put a little air in front of the lead bull and squeezed the trigger and down he went. At that moment I knew I had screwed up. There was 3 of us shooting at the bulls and I was the only one shooting Remington bronze points. And needless to say the guide found my little bronze point in the off side hide right behind the shoulder of the second bull I shot. One of the guys from Pennsylvania who was blasting away claimed the bull and everything worked out. My Dad and brother were hunting with me and would of claimed the other bull it there was any BS. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Wow. What did your guides have to say to the guy who was shooting in your direction? I don't really want to go there. But we had 3 more days of hunting left and the one who said he seen me in his scope stayed in his tent a day and a half.
Life is good live it while you can.
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True Grit, maybe you realize this but shooting two bulls in Colorado is illegal. Having someone else put their tag on an elk you killed is also illegal.
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True Grit, maybe you realize this but shooting two bulls in Colorado is illegal. Having someone else put their tag on an elk you killed is also illegal. Of course I know, but stuff happens, I'm not perfect. Is it illegal to shoot a wounded animal that your helping someone trail up? It's been almost 30 years ago and I owned it then and will now.
Life is good live it while you can.
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[quote=riverdog] Is it illegal to shoot a wounded animal that your helping someone trail up? Yes You can only shoot if you have a valid tag. The way it went down sounds like a real goat show.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Interestingly I'll attempt to kill any badly wounded animal I see regardless of rules. Its call ethics. Sometimes ethics are above rules but you have to pay a price to be ethical.
What he did was not shoot at a wounded bull basically, but kill two bulls because he was stupid.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Interestingly I'll attempt to kill any badly wounded animal I see regardless of rules. Its call ethics. Sometimes ethics are above rules but you have to pay a price to be ethical.
I wholeheartedly agree and have been in that situation more than once.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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True Grit, maybe you realize this but shooting two bulls in Colorado is illegal. Having someone else put their tag on an elk you killed is also illegal. Of course I know, but stuff happens, I'm not perfect. Is it illegal to shoot a wounded animal that your helping someone trail up? It's been almost 30 years ago and I owned it then and will now. As mentioned if you still have a valid tag in your pocket it’s legal. If we don’t have a tag, but are honestly confronted with that situation, the DWM’s I know here in Colorado most likely would not take any action.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Interestingly I'll attempt to kill any badly wounded animal I see regardless of rules. Its call ethics. Sometimes ethics are above rules but you have to pay a price to be ethical.
I wholeheartedly agree and have been in that situation more than once. Sometimes doing the right thing comes with a price. I’ll help any deserving individual, short of getting a citation.
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A azzhole from Pennsylvania who supposedly was a hunter safety instructor shot at a elk that was in front of me. He told the guide and me that "he saw me in the scope and knew he wouldn't hit me" I did end up shooting 2 nice bulls that day, well 2 raghorn 5x5's but nice for a Florida cracker.
You need to know what the he'll your shooting at and where the he'll they were standing when you shot. Where were you hunting that allows 2 branch antlered bulls to be taken? Asking for a friend….. Saw that as well but waiting for someone else to comment on that. Why wouldn't I reply, it was one he'll of a hunt. We were herd shooting elk after a 7 hour horse back ride. Our two guides rode down to the fence line of a ranch that bordered BLM land that had alfalfa planted on it. They had 22lr pistols and would shoot and and holler every 5 or 10 minutes. The herd of 56 elk came my way like they were on a string. They were walking on the same trail that I had shot a 180 class mule deer on a hour earlier. The dickhead from Pennsylvania who was supposed to stay on the opposite side of the mountain heard my shot and came over to my side of the mountain. The elk were only 20 yards from me when he started shooting over my head with a 300. At that moment I said screw the elk and laid down and started yelling and cussing at the dumbazz. Once I got my shirt back together the fun began. I was definitely excited, shook up and pissed. I shot at the first bull and he just kept on running like I missed. Then I shot at the second bull and he never flinched. So I went back to the first bull and thought they must be running faster than I figured and I was shooting behind them. So I just put a little air in front of the lead bull and squeezed the trigger and down he went. At that moment I knew I had screwed up. There was 3 of us shooting at the bulls and I was the only one shooting Remington bronze points. And needless to say the guide found my little bronze point in the off side hide right behind the shoulder of the second bull I shot. One of the guys from Pennsylvania who was blasting away claimed the bull and everything worked out. My Dad and brother were hunting with me and would of claimed the other bull it there was any BS. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. You sir, are full of chit.
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Why wouldn't I reply, it was one he'll of a hunt. We were herd shooting elk after a 7 hour horse back ride. Our two guides rode down to the fence line of a ranch that bordered BLM land that had alfalfa planted on it. They had 22lr pistols and would shoot and and holler every 5 or 10 minutes. The herd of 56 elk came my way like they were on a string. They were walking on the same trail that I had shot a 180 class mule deer on a hour earlier. The dickhead from Pennsylvania who was supposed to stay on the opposite side of the mountain heard my shot and came over to my side of the mountain. The elk were only 20 yards from me when he started shooting over my head with a 300. At that moment I said screw the elk and laid down and started yelling and cussing at the dumbazz. Once I got my shirt back together the fun began. I was definitely excited, shook up and pissed. I shot at the first bull and he just kept on running like I missed. Then I shot at the second bull and he never flinched. So I went back to the first bull and thought they must be running faster than I figured and I was shooting behind them. So I just put a little air in front of the lead bull and squeezed the trigger and down he went. At that moment I knew I had screwed up. There was 3 of us shooting at the bulls and I was the only one shooting Remington bronze points. And needless to say the guide found my little bronze point in the off side hide right behind the shoulder of the second bull I shot. One of the guys from Pennsylvania who was blasting away claimed the bull and everything worked out. My Dad and brother were hunting with me and would of claimed the other bull it there was any BS. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
You sir, are full of chit. Why would you say that? Stuff like that happens all the time As to the bow hunter fatality, if it were me I would charge negligent homicide if he mistook a man for an elk. But Louisiana law and Colorado could be different on what qualifies for manslaughter. I would guess a jury will downgrade the manslaughter charge if they have that option.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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As to the bow hunter fatality, if it were me I would charge negligent homicide if he mistook a man for an elk. But Louisiana law and Colorado could be different on what qualifies for manslaughter.
That was the original charge. The newspaper article said that they were in negotiations but the negotiations apparently broke down. I'd guess they offered a plea deal for the lesser charge, the defendant didn't accept it, so they set the trial date. Do you have any insight as to what an expert witness for the defense would be looking to testify on?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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As to the bow hunter fatality, if it were me I would charge negligent homicide if he mistook a man for an elk. But Louisiana law and Colorado could be different on what qualifies for manslaughter.
That was the original charge. The newspaper article said that they were in negotiations but the negotiations apparently broke down. I'd guess they offered a plea deal for the lesser charge, the defendant didn't accept it, so they set the trial date. Do you have any insight as to what an expert witness for the defense would be looking to testify on? Never been in that situation. If there were no suspicious circumstances my co-workers and I charged negligent injury/homicide. I'm guessing an expert might try to impress the jury on how easy it is to think you saw something you didn't. That has happened to us all but hopefully we held our fire until we were sure. No way this wasn't a wrongful act and if he truly mistook a man for a legal game animal he should be convicted of at least negligent homicide in a criminal trial. This hunter could have vision deficiencies but he would be responsible for knowing his limitations. When I was teaching hunter safety I always mentioned that in our state a legally blind person could buy a hunting license and take a high powered rifle out into the woods and hunt alone. Maybe an expert will use the man's vision deficiency to explain to the court that his client did not have intent. I'm not familiar with Colorado law. I wonder about the wisdom of it being legal for sight impaired people to hunt especially on public land. And that is no argument against them owning firearms.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Tracker
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Betting the truth is that it has nothing to do with sight
impairment and everything to do about being reckless
"Put none but Americans on guard tonight."
-George Washington
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Campfire Kahuna
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Here's how it SHOULD work. Years ago my BIL's father was deer hunting with some co-workers. He was glassing a brushy area and spotted a buck moving through. He could clearly see the antlers and top of the back as it walked with it's head down. He was just ready to touch off a shot when he seemed to think he got a glimpse of orange. How could that be? He lowered the rifle and started glassing again. What he'd seen was for real. One of his friends had shot the deer and was carrying it over his shoulder. He'd just seen the top of his friend's cap above the deer's back.
This is what's called being sure of your target.
I've been hunting for 60 years and have yet to see a man who looked even remotely like an elk or deer.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Another good reason not to carry a deer on your shoulders during hunting season........
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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The following incident happened in 2015, just like the OP incident. Bow hunting and shot by NR muzzle loading hunter
By: Jesse Paul, The Denver PostPosted at 9:37 AM, Jul 06, 2016 and last updated 10:37 AM, Jul 06, 2016
A federal magistrate has recommended an award of more than $2.5 million to the family of a 14-year-old Mesa County boy killed last year by a hunter who apparently thought he was shooting at an elk.
While the payout, stemming from a wrongful death lawsuit filed by the teen’s family, is still pending review by a federal judge, the lawyer representing their case says it sends a loud and clear message at a time when accidental recreational shootings in Colorado have been in the spotlight.
Magistrate Judge Nina Y. Wang, in a 20-page default judgment, wrote that Guy Pohto’s actions amounted to an extremely high level of outrageousness when he mistook 14-year-old Justin Burns for an animal and fatally shot him.
She called Justin’s death “undeniably tragic.”
“We want people to realize that when you come, especially to Colorado, and you are going to go into the mountains and take a gun with you that you have a responsibility,” Justin’s mother, Karla Burns, said Tuesday. “You have a responsibility to the other people in the woods.”
Pohto, 60, pleaded guilty in January to reckless manslaughter and careless hunting in Burns’ death on Sept. 13, 2015. Pohto was sentenced in April to five years in prison and is serving his term at the Four Mile Correctional Center in Fremont County, state records show.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I remember that one. Looked up the details, the shooter said he took a "sound shot."
He pled guilty and instructed his lawyer not to ask for leniency.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Those big judgements are usually not paid if the shooter didn't have quite a large liability policy. I hope the family did collect something. Whenever I investigated hunting or boating accidents it was always a priority to pin the blame where it belonged so that an insurance company couldn't wiggle out of paying. A lot of folks don't realize their homeowner liability coverage will cover negligence away from home. As in boating or firearms accidents. If you have assets it pays to have big coverage.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The article I read said the shooter didn’t have much in the way of assets or insurance.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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The guy from Pa shoots the bow hunter. Goes over to see what he has shot and finds a dead guy. Gets his friend, goes back to camp, pack up, shower and grab a meal to eat in Rico. They then stop in and tell someone what has happened HOURS after the incident. It takes EMT's 10 hours+ to find the dead bow hunter because the shooter tries to beat feet out of Co. and doesn't take them to the body. Shooter then blames the state of Colorado for not making the archery hunter wear orange.
I'd say the [bleep] needs to face the same fate the bowhunter did.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The guy from Pa shoots the bow hunter. Goes over to see what he has shot and finds a dead guy. Gets his friend, goes back to camp, pack up, shower and grab a meal to eat in Rico. They then stop in and tell someone what has happened HOURS after the incident. It takes EMT's 10 hours+ to find the dead bow hunter because the shooter tries to beat feet out of Co. and doesn't take them to the body. Shooter then blames the state of Colorado for not making the archery hunter wear orange.
If you don't mind me asking, where did you come by this information, I haven't read anything like that? It doesn't seem to add up though, according to what I've read. If he tried to leave, seems like they'd have set bail higher than $10K. And they allowed him to travel outside PA because he wasn't a flight risk. Plus he wasn't hunting alone. Even if he tried to beat feet and refused to help with the search, there's no way his hunting partner would have.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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I’m going off of what I was told by a coworker who was in/around Rico when it happened. He has hunted in and around Teluride, Lizard Head for 25 years or so. One of the people in town with EMS or some search and rescue guy that he knows personally told him about what was going on.
I know, I know, it’s hearsay information but the guy I worked with is a straight up honest man. He gave me the story he was told and his acquaintance was one of the people who was in on the search. I haven’t read to much on the story myself until I saw where he was being charged back in January.
Why did it take 10 hours to find the guy if the shooter and his partner did not help lead rescuers to him?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I’m going off of what I was told by a coworker who was in/around Rico when it happened. He has hunted in and around Teluride, Lizard Head for 25 years or so. One of the people in town with EMS or some search and rescue guy that he knows personally told him about what was going on.
I know, I know, it’s hearsay information but the guy I worked with is a straight up honest man. He gave me the story he was told and his acquaintance was one of the people who was in on the search. I haven’t read to much on the story myself until I saw where he was being charged back in January.
Why did it take 10 hours to find the guy if the shooter and his partner did not help lead rescuers to him? That's a good question, I was curious about that myself. Could be the guy was so upset about shooting someone he wasn't thinking right and didn't mark the spot. It'd be hard to find a body in camo up there if you didn't know exactly where to look, lots of thick cover. Anyway, thanks for the info, always good to hear an account from someone who was there. What you read in the papers is usually about 10% of the story.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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They were in the south side of the San Juans in or near Lizard Head Wilderness. I didn't hear anything about a 10 hr search for the bowhunter, but it could've been a long ways back to camp, and take an even longer time to contact the sheriff.. There will always be lots of rumors about these incidents, especially when it involves a nonresident.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'm familiar with the area. The reports say the bowhunter was shot at around 8:30 and the EMS call was received at 10:48. There's no cell service near the trailhead and it's a 30-45 minute drive to Rico, the nearest town with cell service. So after hiking back to the vehicle and driving down, a 2 hour and 20 minute lag is not unreasonable by itself.
And the reports do say that it took 10 hours for S&R to find the body. But I didn't read anything about the shooter or the hunting partner refusing to help with the search, or anything on why it took so long.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Says here in the news article that searchers spent 10 hours trying to locate the dead guy. We were hunting near Sleepy Cat peak when this happened and we had a pretty good snow during that time. Don’t know the weather or conditions that were present where they were at but I can only imagine that getting a crew together and getting into the area takes time. https://kdvr.com/news/local/hunter-...-homicide-charges-in-southwest-colorado/
Last edited by Gristle; 03/10/22.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Here's the latest. They had a hearing this week where the defendant's lawyer argued some pre-trial motions. All of them were denied by the judge, including a motion to suppress the statement the shooter gave to a deputy where he described what happened and admitted to shooting the Bowhunter Greg Gabrisch. I wouldn't be surprised if the shooter negotiates and pleads guilty now, things aren't looking good for him: https://www.durangoherald.com/artic...r-trial-in-fatal-shooting-of-bow-hunter/
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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In my mind the real question is why CPW are running a firearms and archery hunt at the same time and area without the stipulation all hunters have to wear blaze orange....mb?
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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Campfire 'Bwana
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In my mind the real question is why CPW are running a firearms and archery hunt at the same time and area without the stipulation all hunters have to wear blaze orange....mb? Because the Colorado Bowhunter's Association is dead set against it. Seems like they're the ones with the most skin in the game.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Am a Hunter Ed instructor here in Oregon and the orange mandate came up about 10 years ago. A poll among instructors across the state came in at about 60:40 against orange. That was a surprise given our emphasis on safety.
Legislature tried to walk the fence and made orange mandatory for kids 17 or younger during firearms seasons. Not required for archery or us elder hunters. We do have some archery/firearms overlaps.
No excuse on the being sure of one's target regardless of implement. Even if the victim was packing a rack the shooter should do some time.
1Minute
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No excuse on the being sure of one's target Root cause. Not being absolutely sure.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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For certain. I've never seen a rule of safe gun handling that had anything to do with blaze orange.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Tracker
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Wearing orange in the woods is never a bad thing.
Life is good live it while you can.
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Wearing orange in the woods is never a bad thing. Although I used a to bowhunt a lot and occasionally still do, I've become a lot more aware of muzzleloaders.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Just skimmed though, yes I heard about this when it happened. I’d wonder, did the M-L hunter have a ‘bull only’ tag?
I think CO M-L hunting is iron sights only, no scope? As posted previously, one has to pick a spot on the animal for proper placement, not just shoot at the ‘elk’.
I’d wonder the history of the individual, it may not matter in this case, but what’s his background? Was there any impairment? Does he have a history of game law violations or running afoul of the law?
I offer zero excuses for the shooter, no reason whatsoever of not identifying before pulling the trigger. Just like with turkey hunting, that ‘gobble’ may not be a gobbler.
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It still baffles me that people shoot firearms into thickets not knowing exactly what they're shooting at. The fact that this guy packed up and was ready to bolt tells volumes about what kind of human being he is. I say throw the book at him and make an example for others to see.
Ron
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Orwell
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You are supposed to know if a bull is legal before you shoot it (4+ points or brow tine longer than 6") for crying out loud. How many points did the victim have? Certainly not enough to be a "legal bull" in Colorado.
"Socialism produces bad music, bad art, social stagnation and really unhappy people", “I am a conservative, and you may not like that, but I am.” Frank Zappa 1986
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It sounds like the type of guy who would leave game lay if it didn’t have a legal rack. That’s the only account I can see to be shooting when unsure of the antler points. Yes, that’s beside the normal safety protocols about shooting at what you think is game.
After they throw the book at him, he should be mandated to tell his story in hunters safety classes for 5 years, when out of prison.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Just skimmed though, yes I heard about this when it happened. I’d wonder, did the M-L hunter have a ‘bull only’ tag?
There are no either-sex tags for ML in that unit these days. There used to be, but the elk population is way down in the past few years. Someone brought up the case in 2015 where the ML hunter from WI shot the teenage bowhunter on Grand Mesa. That guy pleaded guilty and told his lawyer not to ask for lenience. In other words, he made a mistake but took responsibility and owned it. This guy pleaded not guilty and is trying to get evidence suppressed, including his own account of what happened. In other words, just the opposite. I can understand making a mistake in the heat of the moment with "buck fever" and all. But I can't understand trying to get out of it once you've had time to sit down and think about what you did. Plus, his hunting partner was right there and saw what happened. Not much doubt about what happened. The ML hunter pulled the trigger and the bowhunter Greg Gabrisch is dead, I don't see the point of arguing the details.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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True Grit, maybe you realize this but shooting two bulls in Colorado is illegal. Having someone else put their tag on an elk you killed is also illegal. Of course I know, but stuff happens, I'm not perfect. Is it illegal to shoot a wounded animal that your helping someone trail up? It's been almost 30 years ago and I owned it then and will now. Ain’t none of us perfect. That said, I don’t often talk about showin’ my āss on the interwebs. P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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I thought elk were like deer, and can’t actually distinguish orange?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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That's right. Bowhunters just don't want to wear it.
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Just skimmed though, yes I heard about this when it happened. I’d wonder, did the M-L hunter have a ‘bull only’ tag?
There are no either-sex tags for ML in that unit these days. There used to be, but the elk population is way down in the past few years. Someone brought up the case in 2015 where the ML hunter from WI shot the teenage bowhunter on Grand Mesa. That guy pleaded guilty and told his lawyer not to ask for lenience. In other words, he made a mistake but took responsibility and owned it. This guy pleaded not guilty and is trying to get evidence suppressed, including his own account of what happened. In other words, just the opposite. I can understand making a mistake in the heat of the moment with "buck fever" and all. But I can't understand trying to get out of it once you've had time to sit down and think about what you did. Plus, his hunting partner was right there and saw what happened. Not much doubt about what happened. The ML hunter pulled the trigger and the bowhunter Greg Gabrisch is dead, I don't see the point of arguing the details. i agree ,this muzzle loader hunter is guilty and if his partner was next to him he is guilty too ! i just don`t understand this it is a very horrible mistake. if the 2 seasons over lap in Colorado did the archer have orange on also like muzzle loaders did ?
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire 'Bwana
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pete, why do you say the hunting partner is guilty? Guilty of what?
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Bowhunters just don't want to wear it. Hell, I don't know ANYBODY that wants to wear it.....
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I don't want to wear it either. But with people from all over the county in the woods taking "sound shots" and shooting at "flashes of white" if I'm bowhunting during ML season, blowing a bugle and raking trees I might anyway. At least a hat.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Know your target and beyond.
Shooter didn't know, so, he shouldn't have shot. His mistake and lack of skills, cost's someone their life.
Texas
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Strange, we had a supervisor that was a high strung nut from Pennsylvania, and he would brag about what a great deer hunter he was and all his buddies up there were great, too. Once he bragged about shooting at a deer behind a bush and he hit it even though he couldn't see it. I guess he couldn't understand why nobody at work ever asked him to go hunting with them. Word got around pretty quick. I wonder if the killer knew him???? Maybe it's standard procedure in PA!
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I don’t mind wearing orange. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/XqgvpjHF/DE5-CE7-DC-9-FCF-4482-B707-4-A8-F856-A6728.jpg) P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You wouldn't be legal here with that unfortunately.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Yep, Colorado has a thing about "camo" blaze orange. Don't quite get that one but rules are rules. I have a cabela's pack vest in the same pattern I hunt everywhere in because it is a great piece of gear. I have to throw / sew a cheap silk blaze orange over it when in CO.
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I use a thin fleece blaze camo vest and hat when out for rifle or muzzle. To many idiots everywhere it seems these days.
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pete, why do you say the hunting partner is guilty? Guilty of what? if the other hunter who bugled was he right next to the muzzle loader hunter, and did the guy bugling tell him to shoot ? did the caller feel it was a bull too ? did the bowhunter bugle back ? what side of the muzzle loader hunter was the caller standing ? was the caller a friend or a guide working for cash with no guide license ? was the bowhunter rattling a tree while he was bugling ? lot of of unanswered questions and probably more. but yes the muzzleloader shooter is guilty but his partner might be guilty too of some think ? someone needs to post the court case just thinking its a open and shut case is not always the compete answer.
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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pete, why do you say the hunting partner is guilty? Guilty of what? if the other hunter who bugled was he right next to the muzzle loader hunter, and did the guy bugling tell him to shoot ? did the caller feel it was a bull too ? did the bowhunter bugle back ? what side of the muzzle loader hunter was the caller standing ? was the caller a friend or a guide working for cash with no guide license ? was the bowhunter rattling a tree while he was bugling ? lot of of unanswered questions and probably more. but yes the muzzleloader shooter is guilty but his partner might be guilty too of some think ? someone needs to post the court case just thinking its a open and shut case is not always the compete answer. pete, no one can post the court case because there hasn't been one yet. But I did post this a few pages back, it will answer some of your questions: https://www.durangoherald.com/artic...r-trial-in-fatal-shooting-of-bow-hunter/Nothing in there about the hunting partner acting as a guide or telling the guy with the rifle to shoot. And nothing about the hunting partner being charged with anything, including guiding without a license. If he'd been doing that, it no doubt would have been reported on. But you didn't answer my question so I'll re-state it a little differently: What could the hunting partner possibly be guilty of? And why would it matter if the bowhunter was bugling and raking trees? Why would it matter where the hunting partner was, or what he said? Is it his responsibility to be sure of the target someone else takes a shot at? As far as being an open and shut case, the shooter told a deputy exactly what happened and how it happened. It involved him shooting his rifle at what he thought was an elk, and killing the bowhunter Greg Gabrisch. His hunting partner confirmed what happened. Everyone deserves their day in court but there's not much doubt about what happened. At least the relevant facts, that is.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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well then glad for the information ,thank you , rather its right or wrong good attorneys can change verdicts it just takes money. O.J. Simpson got off on the murder charges ???? the part of bowhunter wearing
legal camo instead of orange and the muzzle loader season over lapping seasons and muzzle loader are required to wear orange . its a terrible mistake and a man was shot and died but it is not a open and shut case ,Colorado will need to make some kind of change in this rule / law for safety . one of the 1st question of 1st day is going to be by defensive attorney : did you know bowhunters could legally wear camo during the beginning of the muzzle loader season when you are required to wear orange on legally ? next question did you have orange on ?
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire Kahuna
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Why would Colorado change a law from one incident.
People need to be smarter for sure. Plenty stupid ignorant folks out there. And most of them rely on rules to keep the world going. Rather than common sense.
And yes, the case is a done deal. When you tell the C. O. what you did and how you did it, its pretty clear.
I can't fathom anyone wanting to even think about blaming another person involved. Lord knows as a guide I can't see everything my hunter can and vice versa. its the hunters responsibility in the end regardless. Yes I've had hunters shoot without me saying ok. We knew what it was etc... that it was legal, ,range and such and it was not a human but still he never said he was going to shoot and I"d have appreciated that.
But again the person that pulls the trigger, orange or not, told to shoot or not, is the person responsible
Any other way, one could actually put the blame on the gun then instead too......
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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i was a juror once and sometimes what is right and just and should happen doesn`t . the verdict we will have to wait and see ?
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire 'Bwana
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well then glad for the information ,thank you , rather its right or wrong good attorneys can change verdicts it just takes money. O.J. Simpson got off on the murder charges ???? the part of bowhunter wearing
legal camo instead of orange and the muzzle loader season over lapping seasons and muzzle loader are required to wear orange . its a terrible mistake and a man was shot and died but it is not a open and shut case ,Colorado will need to make some kind of change in this rule / law for safety . one of the 1st question of 1st day is going to be by defensive attorney : did you know bowhunters could legally wear camo during the beginning of the muzzle loader season when you are required to wear orange on legally ? next question did you have orange on ? pete, if you read the article I linked you'll see that there's a link for a related story on the Colorado Wildlife Commission's recent meeting where they already considered a change to the regs for bowhunters wearing orange during the overlapping season, and they voted 11-0 against it, because: "bowhunters were overwhelmingly against the recommended new regulation that would have required them to wear fluorescent orange or pink in the overlapping season on public lands west of Interstate Highway 25. The wildlife commission did not want the change, either, and voted 11-0 to table the issue.
“Our constituents don’t want it, why change it,” said wildlife commission member Marie Haskett. “Every letter and email said, ‘do not do it.’”As far as the questions you quoted above, they're irrelevant. They don't negate the fact that it's the shooter's responsibility to identify his target before he pulls the trigger. Plenty of guys don't wear orange during the rifle seasons. If you shoot one, "they weren't wearing orange" is not a defense. And once again I'll ask, what could the hunting partner possibly be guilty of?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Wait till this happens. Colorado bear season is open also the same time as ML & archery season.
You got to wear orange or pink but you can use a rifle.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yeah, and it's illegal to kill a bear with cubs, just like it was illegal for the muzzleloader in this case to kill a bull that didn't meet the antler point restrictions or a cow.
Kind of hard to make sure of either if you're shooting at movement in the brush or don't get a good look at your target.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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let`s just wait and see just because your from Colorado doesn`t mean you know the verdict or rather its fare or not ?
Last edited by pete53; 03/18/22.
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire 'Bwana
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That's right pete, being from Colorado has nothing to do with knowing the verdict. There is no verdict to know. And the guy can still plead guilty so there may not be a verdict. But let me ask you this:
And once again I'll ask, what could the hunting partner possibly be guilty of?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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At my age, 60’s, I’ve been hunting and guiding since a teen and I have never even considered a shot at something I could not see. I have had countless chances at client wounded animals as well and if I cannot put the hairs/sight on the spot I want to hit I don’t shoot.
This “sound shot” nonsense I used to hear about from guys around here in northern MN and it always made me cringe.
I am incredulous at how often I read about hunters doing this.
Osky
A woman's heart is the hardest rock the Almighty has put on this earth and I can find no sign on it.
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Update on this, the trial was postponed until August because the defendant's expert witnesses had schedule conflicts: https://www.the-journal.com/articles/dove-creek-trial-for-man-accused-in-hunters-death-is-delayed/One of the experts is in the field of "psychology and trauma response" whatever that means. I still can't believe the guy is pleading not guilty. He told a deputy exactly what happened, and his hunting partner was right there and saw the whole thing. Oh, almost forgot, he has a public defender. So most likely the expert witnesses as well as his lawyer are being paid for by local taxpayers.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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The outcome will be, no longer will they have the seasons with multiple weapons choice. It's the state's fault.
Randy
NRA
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The outcome will be, no longer will they have the seasons with multiple weapons choice. It's the state's fault. I sure hope you're being facetious.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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a real good attorney will get him off ,it just cost plenty money. don`t forget O.J. walked. there is an attorney in Minnesota that would get him off but it would be very expensive because he is one of the best in the country , he deals with Feds alot .
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Update on this, the trial was postponed until August because the defendant's expert witnesses had schedule conflicts: https://www.the-journal.com/articles/dove-creek-trial-for-man-accused-in-hunters-death-is-delayed/One of the experts is in the field of "psychology and trauma response" whatever that means. I still can't believe the guy is pleading not guilty. He told a deputy exactly what happened, and his hunting partner was right there and saw the whole thing. Oh, almost forgot, he has a public defender. So most likely the expert witnesses as well as his lawyer are being paid for by local taxpayers. All it takes is one juror....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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He's not gonna get off. He told the deputy exactly what happened and his friend was right there and saw the whole thing. There's no doubt about what happened.
And given all that, he didn't make any friends with the DA or local community by trying to weasel out of what he did.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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The outcome will be, no longer will they have the seasons with multiple weapons choice. It's the state's fault. I sure hope you're being facetious. Yeppers!
Randy
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I thought you were, but some on here have said the same thing, and not tongue-in-cheek.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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At my age, 60’s, I’ve been hunting and guiding since a teen and I have never even considered a shot at something I could not see. I have had countless chances at client wounded animals as well and if I cannot put the hairs/sight on the spot I want to hit I don’t shoot.
This “sound shot” nonsense I used to hear about from guys around here in northern MN and it always made me cringe.
I am incredulous at how often I read about hunters doing this.
Osky This takes "ALL" the guess work out of it! Orange or not! Identify your Target or don't shoot! Don't shoot at movement or noise, (sound)!
I Learned a long time ago to Separate My Want's from My Needs!
A man's Gotta Do What a Man's Gotta Do!
Know Thy Self!
TRUMP DID WIN!!!
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In semi- communist CA where we have more laws & rules than anywhere no orange required. One hunting buddy shot a deer bless than 40 yards from camouflaged son in law he never saw tucked behind a fallen log. Scared the daylights out of him. Deer died on the spot but could have run right past son in law. Poor communication one of the guys moved into a hillside that was occupied already by the other.
In Utah bow hunting elk in a ghillie suit firearm bear hunters with dogs chased a big bear my way - luckily he winded me & left. Would not have wanted shooting going on in that situation- thanked the hunters for reminding me I enjoyed being alive.
States can make hunting conditions safer with common sense rules. Shooting without identifying your target is unforgivable.
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He's not gonna get off. He told the deputy exactly what happened and his friend was right there and saw the whole thing. There's no doubt about what happened.
And given all that, he didn't make any friends with the DA or local community by trying to weasel out of what he did. I doubt he will, nor should he. ....however when people are involved, especially 12. You never know.....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Ain't that the truth. Even on here where people should know better, some have tried to blame this on overlapping hunting seasons, or the bowhunter for not wearing orange.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Kahuna
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a real good attorney will get him off ,it just cost plenty money. don`t forget O.J. walked. there is an attorney in Minnesota that would get him off but it would be very expensive because he is one of the best in the country , he deals with Feds alot . OJ spent a lot more than most of us have. He paid $1 mill to a legal team that specialized in jury selection. They guaranteed the client a jury that wouldn't convict no matter what the evidence. They did it using preemption in jury selection. They got a woman on the jury who would vote not guilty even if she'd seen him stab his wife in person. The idea that a wealthy person can buy their own jury like that shows a big flaw in our legal system.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Just wondering, whatever happened to the Pa. elk hunter that shot and killed a fella from West Virginia a couple of years ago?
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Thanks. I know of the shooters family.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I just checked in on this, the trial was supposed to be this month but it's been moved back to October.
Apparently the defense plans to call witnesses that will testify that the shooter is a very experienced hunter who's passed on many bull elk that weren't trophy quality and isn't the kind of hunter that would get excited and shoot at movement in the brush.
And the shooter plans to testify that he watched a five point bull for 20 seconds before he pulled the trigger.
Thing is, right after it happened he told a deputy that he saw movement in the brush and took a shot. No mention of watching a five point bull.
Funny how that works.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Thanks for the update
Last edited by exbiologist; 08/10/22.
"For some unfortunates, poisoned by city sidewalks ... the horn of the hunter never winds at all" Robert Ruark, The Horn of the Hunter
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The problem with mandatory orange is that an inexperienced hunter "might" assume that it is ok to shoot in the absence of orange. Others use the woodlands during hunting season and won't be wearing orange. It's an argument against mandatory orange that has been knocked around in several states. Presumably, by not mandating orange, it forces a hunter to make certain that his target is actually a game animal.
However, the idea is obviously not fool-proof.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The problem with mandatory orange is that an inexperienced hunter "might" assume that it is ok to shoot in the absence of orange. Others use the woodlands during hunting season and won't be wearing orange. It's an argument against mandatory orange that has been knocked around in several states. Presumably, by not mandating orange, it forces a hunter to make certain that his target is actually a game animal.
However, the idea is obviously not fool-proof. Not sure about that but the before/after fatality statistics in states including Colorado that required blaze orange as of a certain date pretty clearly show fewer fatalities and incidents after blaze orange was required. Which doesn't reflect very well on the average Joe's ability to positively identify their target.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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I watched Eastman’s Hunting show last night on a Colorado elk hunt. The host and the guide had not one piece of blaze orange on while the hunter was decked out in orange vest and cap per CO regs. So explain to me how that passes the common sense sniff test?
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Are you questioning the wisdom of the regs for not requiring it, or the host and guide for not wearing it anyway?
There's nothing that stops a non-hunter from wearing orange. If you read the CO brochure, they go out of their way to recommend everyone including non-hunters wear orange during gun seasons but there's no requirement. Which is about where they should be IMHO.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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In case anyone is interested the trial for the shooter is going on right now down in Dove Creek. It's being live streamed on webex: https://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/District/Index.cfm?District_ID=22Scroll down a few lines, the trial is People vs Ronald Morosko and there's a link in blue.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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I don’t believe a guide is required to wear orange in Colorado but the hunter is…
NRA Life,Endowment,Patron or Benefactor since '72.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I watched the opening statements this morning. The day it happened the shooter told a deputy on scene that he and his partner were calling to bulls that were bugling and raking trees and coming in.
The DA showed a cell phone video of the bowhunter taken about 20 minutes before and a couple hundred yards from where he was shot. Couldn't really see it on the live stream video but it was described as the bowhunter blowing on a bugle and raking trees with the sound of bugles in the background. He was excited and going after the bulls you could hear in the background.
Pretty chilling stuff.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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I hunted with an Outfitter in Colorado (two actually) that required that the guides wear orange and carry a sidearm. There is no excuse for a gun hunter shooting a camp bowhunters, none!
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The problem with mandatory orange is that an inexperienced hunter "might" assume that it is ok to shoot in the absence of orange. I talked to a guy one time who said he didn’t see any game but got a few “brush shots” while out hunting. I asked him what a “brush shot” was and he said it is when you hear something in the brush and shoot into it. The problem is not any law. It’s dumb fugks.
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle. I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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Thanks for the updates on the trial Smoke. I was wondering when the trial had been rescheduled.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Was he telling the truth or just trying to keep you from coming back to his favorite public land spot.
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Our system of laws and courts is adversarial, so everyone deserves a good defense, making whatever argument they choose to make. Prosecutors do so every day.
That said, anyone shooting at a sound needs their firearm to have a catastrophic barrel obstruction.
I know it isn't up to me to know the facts or judge the circumstances here, and for that, I am grateful.
If it was my son that was killed, I'd pull out the Mosaic Law on someone's ass, I know that.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Our system of laws and courts is adversarial, so everyone deserves a good defense, making whatever argument they choose to make. Prosecutors do so every day.
That said, anyone shooting at a sound needs their firearm to have a catastrophic barrel obstruction.
I know it isn't up to me to know the facts or judge the circumstances here, and for that, I am grateful.
If it was my son that was killed, I'd pull out the Mosaic Law on someone's ass, I know that. The day it happened the shooter told a deputy that he "saw a flash of white in the pines" and took a shot. Later, after consulting a lawyer he changed his story to say he'd seen a five point bull and shot at the bull. He hired an expert in firearms safety and hunting incidents who wrote a report and gave an opinion in court that the shooter conducted himself in a safe and reasonable manner when he took the shot. The expert spent most of his time bagging on the people who investigated the incident, saying that they didn't collect enough information to properly analyze the incident. So I'm not sure how he could look at the same information and conclude that the shooter acted safely and reasonably. Plus, the investigators had a guy who admitted to taking the shot, told them exactly what happened and where to find the body. Maybe they thought that was enough. He also hired an expert in PTSD who said it's not unusual for people who've been through trauma to leave out details when they describe the traumatic incident. I hope the jury makes the right decision.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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The only risk to hunters in camo should be when they are behind an animal that is the target of another hunter. Shooting at movement or sound is the definition of negligent homicide.
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How could an expert witness ever convince anyone with a brain that a person looks like an elk? What part of the person did the shooter think was the rack? I'm hoping he realized it was a human before he started field dressing. lol You have got to be a complete moron to shoot a human thinking it is an elk, gezeeeeee!
KB
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in Minnesota during any firearm deer season it is required to wear orange , even if you are a bowhunter during the firearm season. Colorado`s law on the non-requirement of orange for bowhunters during firearms season will probably save this dudes butt some . as a bowhunter myself for 50 some years i had no problem wearing a orange vest while hunting with a bow during a firearms season. i bet the families on both sides sues Colorado for this unsafe orange law rather its right or wrong ? i am not going to second guess the jury O.J. got off ?
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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smokepole;
Good morning my cyber friend, I trust the day down in your section of Colorado is behaving and you're all well.
Thanks for the thread and for keeping the updates coming, it's of interest to me for a few reasons.
Since I've been a BC Hunter Safety Examiner/Instructor for 33 years, we get access to hunting accident stats from BC and then nationally as well as from stateside as well.
The responsibility of the individual hunter to identify both their target and beyond is drilled into the students in our course. I'll note that one can home study and challenge the test for sure, but we've usually seen mainly adults or children with parents who are really, REALLY involved do well with the challenges.
Here in BC we have overlapping bow seasons with youth firearm and black bear firearm seasons.
Back in the day when we were fighting to get youth seasons going, the hue and cry from the bowhunters - mostly boomers like myself might I sadly add - was that the kids were going to shoot them all dead because they were wearing camo.
Our argument was more or less the same argument that I sent as a letter to the local coroner who conducted an inquest into the last accidental shooting in our area, the details of which I am somewhat familiar with, but the short version is one hunter shot another hunter who was dragging out a whitetail buck. He missed the buck at 30-50yds but hit the guy dragging it squarely, so there's that too. They were coworkers but not hunting together.
Anyways more or less here's what the letter said smoke -
"Here in southern BC where we hunt, at any given time there can be range cattle, ranch horses, feral horses, mountain goat, California bighorn, mule and whitetail deer, elk, moose, black bears, grizzly bears, wolves, coyotes and cougars in any given area. As well in the same area can be timber cruisers, prospectors, mushroom pickers, mountain bikers, cowboys on horses - so they sound like animals - and hikers.
We are required by law and regulation to identify first species, then gender, then in many cases antler point count - 6 point on one side for elk, 4 point above the brow tine for mule deer, no more than 2 points on one side for non-LEH moose etc.
After we've identified the species, gender and antler point count, the chances of the target being a human are non existent."
Honestly smokepole, I've come to believe that the pressure we put on ourselves and our fellow hunters to "get something" is a primary factor in these incidents.
The hunter has traveled a great distance, at great expense and believe that they will potentially face the derision of family, friends and/or coworkers if they come back from the hunt without pulling the trigger.
That's a problem - IF - that's the case.
Yesterday morning was the last morning of mule deer "any buck" section of the season for us and our eldest and I were up in a new spot looking for one for her. We spotted a first rack 2 point and put a stalk on him, but while she got into shooting position 3 times for it, there was always brush in the way or she wasn't satisfied with the shot angle for bullet placement.
We came home clean, with no meat in the back and both agreed it was an epic and grand in all ways hunt.
Somehow we - collectively as hunters - have to get that message out, that it's not only acceptable but of primary importance to not shoot if we're not comfortable with all the conditions of the shot.
I'm not sure I always do that smoke, that is to say communicate that it's okay to come home empty and I'm sure that many if not most of the hunting videos don't do that. The implication is that the hunt was a success because the hunter killed a big whatever it was they were after.
Personally I do not believe that mandatory blaze orange for hunters is the answer, because as noted above, all the rest of the 2 and 4 legged users of the same part of the mountain will not be wearing orange.
Anyways sir, I apologize for preaching to the choir for the most part, but that's where I'm at on the issue.
All the best and good hunting.
Dwayne
Last edited by BC30cal; 10/30/22. Reason: more information
The most important stuff in life isn't "stuff"
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Dwayne: Thanks for the thoughtful (as always) reply. The day is mostly behaving but I think tonight we're expecting an invasion of goblins.
The case is of interest to me because I'm also a hunter ed instructor, and I've hunted this area the past ten years with both a bow and muzzleloader. It's interesting that the defendant in this case said the area was so remote that they weren't expecting to see any other hunters. I've been there and it's an area that I walk past to get into remote areas where there are fewer hunters, but they're always there.
In our hunter ed class we focus on game identification. We ask the students why it's important and they always say, "so we don't shoot the wrong animal and get into trouble." Then we tell them it's also a safety issue; if they make positive ID they'll never shoot another hunter. We show the students various photos and measurements of elk vs. moose and ask them if they think it would be easy to mistake a moose for an elk. They always shake their heads "no" in unison, and then we tell them that on average, 25 moose are mistakenly shot by hunters with elk tags in Colorado annually. And those are just the ones reported. This particular shooter had a bull tag, and the game management unit has antler point restrictions so a hunter can't shoot just any bull. Maybe that's why his story was that he saw a five-point bull, they're legal.
To your point on putting pressure on ourselves, this was the last day of their hunt and they were going to hunt a half day and then begin the long drive home.
And I agree that mandatory blaze orange is not the answer, it's just an excuse used by too many including the shooter in this case. Bowhunters in Colorado don't want it, and resoundingly so. And not only do birdwatchers, hikers, and mushroom pickers avoid it, I've seen plenty of rifle hunters not wearing it too.
Last, I'll say that I've had some interesting moments with livestock in the national forest. Once it was a brown llama tethered to a tree about four miles from the trailhead, up on the side of a mountain nowhere near a trail. I had a cow elk tag so it did get my attention until I'd sorted it out. Looked like a big old fuzzball when I closed the distance. The other time, I had a bear tag and heard an animal turning over rocks in a creek bed. I saw black through the brush, snuck up on it, and drew down on an angus steer. Would have been good eating!! Oh well, at least I got some practice stalking, those angus are really tough to sneak up on.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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smokepole; Good afternoon to you sir, I'm glad to read that other than a goblin onslaught you should be alright. Here's hoping...  Thanks for the reply, the kind words therein and for being a Hunter Safety instructor too. Obviously I believe it's important to have the next shift get a good firm foundation. It's interesting that many moose get shot every year. I want to say we don't hear about that often here, but again it's possible it's unreported and left in the field. Our BC cleanup crew is amazingly efficient so the evidence would be gone in days. Thanks for the chuckle with the livestock stories, we're well familiar with Black Angus range cattle as pretty much everywhere in the mountains here is someone's grazing lease until today actually when they're supposed to be off the range for winter. The oddest livestock experience I had was on an elk hunt in the Kootenays back in about 87 so I was younger and more impressionable then. Still, it's got a bit of a Halloween vibe to it so here goes. My late father and mother were friends with a couple their age, so in their late '60's at the time. The husband had been showing signs of occasional early onset dementia and before we left, his wife took me aside and asked that I keep a little extra careful watch out for her husband, which naturally I agreed to do. We were there a few days and decided we'd hunt a mountain west of Canal Flats which looked good when we scouted it late one afternoon. The next day then was one of those still mornings on the mountains with just enough fog to keep the visibility to a bit less than 100yds or so, but we'd come a long ways to hunt and had LEH calf tags, so my hunting partner and I split up and headed separately into the fog. We agreed to meet back at my pickup at 10:00 as I recall. Maybe an hour from the pickup or so, I heard hoofbeats coming through the old growth in my direction, so I dropped down on one knee and closed the bolt on my rifle. Out of the mist a white horse appeared, trotting towards me with it's head down so obviously trailing me. He trotted up to about 25 yards from me, didn't change pace as it went in a circle snorting quietly like horses will do sometimes and then it left the way it came.  It was surreal and more than a little unsettling to say the least smokepole, as the first thought that struck me was "Death rides a Pale Horse" and that Death must have got bucked off somewhere back there.  I'll also admit that I walked over to where the horse was and checked that it left tracks - I went there smoke!!!  Anyways, the day got weirder from there as my hunting partner who was my father's buddy, so a senior, got lost and didn't show up at the pickup until about 1:00PM.. All that time I was sitting in the pickup trying to figure out how I was going to tell his wife that I'd managed to lose her husband - when she'd specifically asked me not to. That's the story of the Pale Horse and the Kootenay elk hunt smokepole, I hope it gave you or someone out in the ether space a wee laugh on this Halloween. Thanks again and good hunting. Dwayne
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The problem with mandatory orange is that an inexperienced hunter "might" assume that it is ok to shoot in the absence of orange. I talked to a guy one time who said he didn’t see any game but got a few “brush shots” while out hunting. I asked him what a “brush shot” was and he said it is when you hear something in the brush and shoot into it. The problem is not any law. It’s dumb fugks. This story has been told in every state for years!
The more I get to know people, the better I like dogs, life is short, eat dessert first.
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The problem with mandatory orange is that an inexperienced hunter "might" assume that it is ok to shoot in the absence of orange. I talked to a guy one time who said he didn’t see any game but got a few “brush shots” while out hunting. I asked him what a “brush shot” was and he said it is when you hear something in the brush and shoot into it. The problem is not any law. It’s dumb fugks. This story has been told in every state for years! The first time I heard it was 50 years ago when I took a hunters safety course in New York.
Faith and love of others knows no mileage nor bounds. That's simply the way it is.
dogzapper
After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box.
Italian Proverb
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yes, New York is where the "brush shot" originated.
Which ushered in the era of the "brush gun."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Dwayne, I don't know how I missed that story, thanks for posting.. I'd guess that each of us has a few stories like that, things that will never be explained.
In keeping with the theme here, at least you didn't shoot the horse!
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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smokepole; Good afternoon my friend, I hope you're keeping warm enough down there and the day is going well otherwise too. Thanks for the reply and the chuckle, indeed it's good that I didn't shoot the horse. It was shod too by the way, which I suppose speaks well for Death in that he/she/it cares about keeping the horse's feet healthy in the rocks? As mentioned we've got feral horses in some areas that we hunt, but since they were originally First Nation's horses which have slipped off of Federal Reserves, they're not on the list of things we can shoot on sight. Hogs are however on that list, but I've not seen or heard of feral hogs in our part of the valley. Honestly I'm still trying to wrap my head around someone mistaking a moose for an elk, that's really puzzling on a number of levels. Do you have any data on the folks who do that? As in are they typically out of state hunters? Vision impaired perhaps? Funny too, after making my original post here I've called a local rancher for two different Black Angus range cattle - one young bull on Monday who'd ripped his ear tag out and a heifer yesterday with a #21 ear tag. I ran across them looking for moose on the first two days of our spike fork bull season here. The ranchers are always happy to hear from hunters who find stragglers up on the mountains and in fact he mentioned that this particular young bull had done the same thing last fall too. Usually there'll be a lead cow that will just decide it's time to head down and she'll take her calf and go. Our eldest daughter and I hit the main herd moving down the main logging road about 3 weekends ago now smokepole and we both chuckled at how smoothly that migration down works in the cow world. My rancher buddy said when they get a new grazing lease area and move the herd to a new spot, it can take a couple years before the herd gets into the rhythm of when to head down. It's always a lead cow that starts it, just like a lead doe will usually cue the mulie migration out here with the alpine herd. He said the cattle will always have a pecking order in the herd and if you take out the lead cow or she happens to die, the second in command as it were will take over within a day or less. Lastly he said that young bulls often will wander off on their own as they're not really important yet in the herd structure and aren't tolerated by the older bulls or mature cows typically. Interesting I always thought. Anyways that's the news from here smokepole, no bull moose spotted - or mistaken for elk either - but noncompliant range cattle spotted and whereabouts reported to the appropriate entities. All the best and good hunting. Dwayne
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Dwayne, good evening and yes I'm managing to stay warm but we're supposed to get a pretty good freeze and some snow this evening.
I'm not sure of the demographics or resident/non-resident breakdown in the moose-mistaken-for-elk deal. One factor might be that moose weren't introduced here until 1978 and weren't really common until maybe 20 years ago? So there's not a long tradition of dealing with and seeing moose.
Our pet theory amongst the group I teach with is, when people see moose they're always in a wetland area or in the willows in stream valleys, so that's what people think of as moose habitat, and most don't expect to see moose up in the alpine areas and timber where elk hang out. So when they glimpse part of a moose where the elk hang out, they're not even thinking a moose would be there.
Still not an excuse but makes as much sense as anything else.
Take care Dwayne, and post some pics of your deer hunts this year!
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I spent about a half hour in the back of beyond of F. Church Wilderness area stalking a sound.
Once spotted, it took a bit of thought to determine something black, wearing a saddle, tied to a tree probably wasn't an elk, so I decided not to take a chance on shooting first, positively ID later.
9000 feet up, I didn't get an elk, but I got some great moose video from 20 yards of a large Shiras bull tossing around a 20' long tree with his antlers.
He didn't look like elk either....
Last edited by las; 11/11/22.
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I was told by someone at the trial that the shooter left the scene, drove through the town of Rico and back to his lodgings before reporting the shooting hours after it happened. Not a good look.
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I just pray the goofball never hunts again. We had a dyed-in-the-wool PA Yankee that transferred in to my workplace years ago. He talked a talked big about PA hunting, and how he hunted since he was a kid....blah,blah,blah... One day near deer gun season he started trying to get someone to invite him to hunt. during one of his big tales, he talked about how they would shoot at movement in the brush because no buck was going to get away from him. Needless to say, word got around and nobody invited him to hunt the entire time he was here. I guess he transferred because none of us darned hillbillies would take him deer hunting. Did I mention he was a cocky ladder climber as well?
Last edited by reivertom; 12/14/22.
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A azzhole from Pennsylvania who supposedly was a hunter safety instructor shot at a elk that was in front of me. He told the guide and me that "he saw me in the scope and knew he wouldn't hit me" I did end up shooting 2 nice bulls that day, well 2 raghorn 5x5's but nice for a Florida cracker.
You need to know what the he'll your shooting at and where the he'll they were standing when you shot. Where were you hunting that allows 2 branch antlered bulls to be taken? Asking for a friend….. Saw that as well but waiting for someone else to comment on that. Why wouldn't I reply, it was one he'll of a hunt. We were herd shooting elk after a 7 hour horse back ride. Our two guides rode down to the fence line of a ranch that bordered BLM land that had alfalfa planted on it. They had 22lr pistols and would shoot and and holler every 5 or 10 minutes. The herd of 56 elk came my way like they were on a string. They were walking on the same trail that I had shot a 180 class mule deer on a hour earlier. The dickhead from Pennsylvania who was supposed to stay on the opposite side of the mountain heard my shot and came over to my side of the mountain. The elk were only 20 yards from me when he started shooting over my head with a 300. At that moment I said screw the elk and laid down and started yelling and cussing at the dumbazz. Once I got my shirt back together the fun began. I was definitely excited, shook up and pissed. I shot at the first bull and he just kept on running like I missed. Then I shot at the second bull and he never flinched. So I went back to the first bull and thought they must be running faster than I figured and I was shooting behind them. So I just put a little air in front of the lead bull and squeezed the trigger and down he went. At that moment I knew I had screwed up. There was 3 of us shooting at the bulls and I was the only one shooting Remington bronze points. And needless to say the guide found my little bronze point in the off side hide right behind the shoulder of the second bull I shot. One of the guys from Pennsylvania who was blasting away claimed the bull and everything worked out. My Dad and brother were hunting with me and would of claimed the other bull it there was any BS. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. One proud idiot!
Never take life to seriously, after all ,no one gets out of it alive.
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Guilty https://www.durangoherald.com/articles/jury-finds-morosko-guilty-in-fatal-hunting-incident/A Cortez jury found muzzleloader hunter Ronald J. Morosko guilty Wednesday on charges of criminal negligent homicide and hunting in a careless manner in the death of bowhunter Gregory Gabrisch. The jury of two men and 10 women reported it had reached a unanimous verdict at 3:40 p.m. after beginning deliberations at the end of the day Tuesday. The four-day trial began Thursday….
Last edited by huntsonora; 01/25/23.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Dude is 67.
Kiss your retirement goodbye.
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Dude is 67.
Kiss your retirement goodbye. Maybe not. From the article linked above, the maximum sentence available is three years. Minimum is probation and a fine. Kind of surprising.
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Campfire Ranger
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1Minute
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An old soft white boy in gen pop in Kali east ? GOOD LUCK !
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Dude is 67.
Kiss your retirement goodbye. Maybe not. From the article linked above, the maximum sentence available is three years. Minimum is probation and a fine. Kind of surprising. I think he might get the maximum, which would not have happened if he'd just taken responsibility for what he did. He pretty much did the opposite and that will be taken into consideration.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Interestingly I'll attempt to kill any badly wounded animal I see regardless of rules. Its call ethics. Sometimes ethics are above rules but you have to pay a price to be ethical. I wholeheartedly agree and have been in that situation more than once. +2 Duty not pleasure. A game warden quietly told me that I had done the right thing when we phoned him and he came and looked at the slowly dying, fatally wounded bull I had put down. I wonder if he would have said that and let me go if other cops had been around.
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yes he is guilty but he won`t get the max if the verdict is over ? this verdict could still get over turned ?
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire 'Bwana
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yes he is guilty but he won`t get the max if the verdict is over ? this verdict could still get over turned ? Pete, the verdict is in and it's guilty. There's always the possibility he could appeal it.
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Scheduled for March 31st.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Interestingly I'll attempt to kill any badly wounded animal I see regardless of rules. Its call ethics. Sometimes ethics are above rules but you have to pay a price to be ethical. I wholeheartedly agree and have been in that situation more than once. +2 Duty not pleasure. A game warden quietly told me that I had done the right thing when we phoned him and he came and looked at the slowly dying, fatally wounded bull I had put down. I wonder if he would have said that and let me go if other cops had been around. Yes. No. Maybe. Moot point really. Do the right thing. Cop refused to put down a deer with broken back legs a while back because she was on private property and no longer in the ditch. GMAFB.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Dude is 67.
Kiss your retirement goodbye. Maybe not. From the article linked above, the maximum sentence available is three years. Minimum is probation and a fine. Kind of surprising. I’m thinking more about the civil suit.
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Dude is 67.
Kiss your retirement goodbye. Maybe not. From the article linked above, the maximum sentence available is three years. Minimum is probation and a fine. Kind of surprising. I’m thinking more about the civil suit. +1
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Dude is 67.
Kiss your retirement goodbye. Maybe not. From the article linked above, the maximum sentence available is three years. Minimum is probation and a fine. Kind of surprising. I’m thinking more about the civil suit. Yep usually that follows after the criminal
Small Game, Deer, Turkey, Bear, Elk....It's what's for dinner.
If you know how many guns you own... you don't own enough.
In God We Trust.
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Scheduled for March 31st. SP--thanks!
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Dude is 67.
Kiss your retirement goodbye. Maybe not. From the article linked above, the maximum sentence available is three years. Minimum is probation and a fine. Kind of surprising. I’m thinking more about the civil suit. Usually limited to the homeowners policy.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Ranger
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Pathetic 90 days & $500 for killing someone.
He needs his brains beat out
PRESIDENT TRUMP 2024/2028 !!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Bristoe
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Two things from the article. First, before the trial the judge rejected a plea deal the prosecutor made that involved no jail time. That tells me the prosecutor didn't think he had a very strong case. And if you followed the trial, one of the defense's key contentions was that LE who investigated the incident did a shoddy job of it. And they've already said they'll appeal, so maybe the judge was trying to give a sentence light enough to avoid an appeal?
Second, the judge said he wasn't sure the shooter was taking responsibility for his actions.
Ya think?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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seen this before on other cases if he was black or Indian the verdict would have been not guilty , but a non-resident old white guy might still get off ? this wearing camo is legal for bowhunter but gun hunters has to have orange on is a foolish law during a gun / muzzle loader season. yes he is guilty but a good criminal attorney would get him off it only takes lots of money. the longer this trial goes on the better chance the old white guy gets off yet ? >> he should have got life in prison but here in America criminals get off too easy.
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Pathetic 90 days & $500 for killing someone.
He needs his brains beat out Well when he's locked up, you'll know where to find him....
Last edited by Jackson_Handy; 04/01/23.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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....... the longer this trial goes on the better chance the old white guy gets off yet ? >> he should have got life in prison but here in America criminals get off too easy. Pete: 1) The trial is over He's been sentenced 2) No one ever gets anything close to a life sentence in a case like this. 3) I wouldn't call him a criminal. His crime was unintentional.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Was it a felony or misdemeanor conviction, the article says both? He's stupid if he appeals, on another trial he could be found guilty and sentenced by a different judge. He got off lucky, he should never hunt again!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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He had multiple charges, the most serious was a felony with a maximum sentence of 3 years in jail.
The judge did recommend that he be banned from hunting for life in Colorado and the compact states, but apparently that's something that CP&W has to do.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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"another trial "> i was talking about a new trial ? that he may get off yet ? the Liberal Colorado rule / law that bowhunters can wear camo during a gun / orange wear season law might be enough that he may get off in a new trial " another new trial ". if he broke the law he is a criminal otherwise he goes free ,which he could still go free with again a new trail. also if he gets a felony he is a criminal .
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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"another trial "> i was talking about a new trial ? that he may get off yet ? the Liberal Colorado rule / law that bowhunters can wear camo during a gun / orange wear season law might be enough that he may get off in a new trial " another new trial ". if he broke the law he is a criminal otherwise he goes free ,which he could still go free with again a new trail. also if he gets a felony he is a criminal . LOL, you crack me up pete, you've got it exactly backwards. The law, or rather lack of a law that forces bowhunters to wear blaze orange is anything but liberal. In fact it's the opposite because it gives bowhunters the choice of whether to wear orange or not. In this case, the law is what it is because that's how Colorado bowhunters want it. I know it's outrageous, the audacity of Colorado bowhunters wanting a choice when people from Minnesota don't want them to have one. The conservative position is to give people a choice, the liberal position is to mandate safeguards "for your own protection." But let me ask you a question. Your comments imply that in this case, you think that the bowhunter not wearing orange is a valid defense for the muzzleloader who shot him. Is that really what you think?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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smokepole;
Top of the morning to you sir, I hope you're getting seasonally appropriate weather in your part of Colorado and you're well.
Thanks for the further updates on this, I appreciate you taking the time.
When we did some submissions to the MoE regarding mandatory Blaze Orange here in BC, which had resulted from a Coroner's Inquest into what I believe was a questionable hunting related shooting, one of the points that myself and many other respondents made is that we know share the back country with many, many other users, not just hunters.
If then we were going to make all hunters wear BO for their safety, did we need to do that for all firewood cutters, mountain bike riders, mushroom pickers, wild flower pickers, bird watchers, cowboys and just folks taking a hike? The timber cruisers already usually have BO vests on, but prospectors and geologists don't always.
To my way of thinking the onus has to remain on the hunter to identify our target and what's beyond it.
Here and throughout most of the west at least, those backcountry users have always shared the mountain with each other - well okay not mountain bike riders perhaps, but here it was California 49ers following the lure of another strike that really opened up the area after the fur traders and FN folks.
Following close behind the placer miners were cattlemen who were feeding everyone and then the rest followed.
Anyways sir, again just random thoughts from a semi-geezer on a sunny Sunday and nothing more.
All the best to you in the upcoming week.
Dwayne
The most important stuff in life isn't "stuff"
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Thanks Dwayne, always good to hear from you. The weather down here has been appropriate, the problem is, that can mean anything in April. Sunny and 65 degrees here today, doing some yard work but can't plant anything because we'll have snow and a low of 17 on Tuesday. Anyway, you hit the nail on the head with what you said, this has to be the foundation and we can't erode it, not one little bit: To my way of thinking the onus has to remain on the hunter to identify our target and what's beyond it.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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"another trial "> i was talking about a new trial ? that he may get off yet ? the Liberal Colorado rule / law that bowhunters can wear camo during a gun / orange wear season law might be enough that he may get off in a new trial " another new trial ". if he broke the law he is a criminal otherwise he goes free ,which he could still go free with again a new trail. also if he gets a felony he is a criminal . LOL, you crack me up pete, you've got it exactly backwards. The law, or rather lack of a law that forces bowhunters to wear blaze orange is anything but liberal. In fact it's the opposite because it gives bowhunters the choice of whether to wear orange or not. In this case, the law is what it is because that's how Colorado bowhunters want it. I know it's outrageous, the audacity of Colorado bowhunters wanting a choice when people from Minnesota don't want them to have one. The conservative position is to give people a choice, the liberal position is to mandate safeguards "for your own protection." But let me ask you a question. Your comments imply that in this case, you think that the bowhunter not wearing orange is a valid defense for the muzzleloader who shot him. Is that really what you think? your problem from the beginning, i had posted how this trial will end up more accurate than you did and this trial could go to another trial yet ? the orange /camo thing is wrong but the shooter who could get a Felony yet , which makes him a criminal . it is a valid point by lawyers in court the orange/camo thing but the muzzle loader hunter still should have first identified what he was aiming at . who knows maybe he was smoking legal liberal Colorado pot before he shot ? >>> get over it you have been wrong since the beginning of all these posts go smoke some more liberal Colorado pot , being wrong and always posting negative comments makes you look foolish man up !
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So you do think the fact that the bowhunter was not wearing orange is a valid defense for the guy who shot him.
And you think I'm wrong here. Thank goodness the jury didn't agree with you.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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your problem from the beginning, i had posted how this trial will end up more accurate than you did and this trial could go to another trial yet ? No you didn't pete, you have a selective memory. Here are a couple of the things you posted before the trial: i agree ,this muzzle loader hunter is guilty and if his partner was next to him he is guilty too ! i a real good attorney will get him off .... Here's what I posted before the trial: He's not gonna get off. He told the deputy exactly what happened and his friend was right there and saw the whole thing. There's no doubt about what happened.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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So you do think the fact that the bowhunter was not wearing orange is a valid defense for the guy who shot him.
And you think I'm wrong here. Thank goodness the jury didn't agree with you. i know it was wrong but if you ever sat in on a court case you should be able to understand how lawyers twist the law and words around. as far as what he may get for charges he did not get much did he ? it should have been at least 10 years oh that`s right its liberal Colorado the pot state just give him another chance ? discussion with you is over your answers are not >VALID< again! maybe Big Stick can make you understand better or a 2x4 side the head ?
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So you do think the fact that the bowhunter was not wearing orange is a valid defense for the guy who shot him.
And you think I'm wrong here. Thank goodness the jury didn't agree with you. i know it was wrong but if you ever sat in on a court case you should be able to understand how lawyers twist the law and words around. Pete, I've been on four juries and testified in court as an expert witness. And I watched about half of this trial on Webex. Did you? as far as what he may get for charges he did not get much did he ? it should have been at least 10 years oh that`s right its liberal Colorado the pot state just give him another chance ? discussion with you is over your answers are not >VALID< again! maybe Big Stick can make you understand better or a 2x4 side the head ? Pete, once again it's not what he "may get," it's what he's already gotten, he's been sentenced. As far as the sentence he got, the trail was in Dolores County. If you knew anything about the case or about Colorado, you'd know that's one of the most solidly red counties in the state.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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smokepole....do you have a headache yet?...you need to look at this from petes view....that will require some gymnastics but that is the only way you can get on that level of thinking.....bob
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yeah, I'm gonna go watch some Perry Mason re-runs to get in the right frame of mind.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Dude is 67.
Kiss your retirement goodbye. Maybe not. From the article linked above, the maximum sentence available is three years. Minimum is probation and a fine. Kind of surprising. I think he might get the maximum, which would not have happened if he'd just taken responsibility for what he did. He pretty much did the opposite and that will be taken into consideration. i noticed you " smokepole " felt this might happen ? but it didn`t . > right or wrong this muzzle loader shooter may ask for another trial yet ?
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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It you don't want to wear orange while your in the woods so be it. I spend a lot of time in the woods and wear a orange cap and most of the time a orange vest also. I don't care if JJ
Life is good live it while you can.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I think he might get the maximum, which would not have happened if he'd just taken responsibility for what he did. He pretty much did the opposite and that will be taken into consideration. i noticed you " smokepole " felt this might happen ? but it didn`t . > right or wrong this muzzle loader shooter may ask for another trial yet ? You're right pete, I thought he'd get a longer sentence, wishful thinking on my part. And he should have gotten a longer sentence. He pulled the trigger, the bowhunter died, yet he thinks he's "not guilty" and caused the people of Colorado to pay for not one, but two trials. I don't know how the judge came up with the sentence, but just the fact that he didn't step up and take responsibility would've colored my thinking if I was making the decision.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Welcome to a liberal schiethole. Jail time is a no-no now in such utopias. Let's get real, it was the assault muzzleloader's fault. We need common sense assault muzzleloader control.
I bet pole smokin polis will right this wrong
Last edited by Jackson_Handy; 04/03/23.
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Pretty much the reason for my position on mandatory blaze orange. Can help lead to "if it don't glow-shoot it" mind set.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yep, there's no mention of blaze orange in any gun safety rules I've ever seen.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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The fact that he shot another hunter makes this guy a negligent hunter at best. The fact that he packed up and left without reporting the shooting speaks volumes about this guy’s character. He got off easy in my opinion. But that’s just an opinion.
Ron
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Orwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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He didn't pack up and leave without reporting it. There's no cell service in the area, they drove down to their hotel and called it in.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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The fact that he shot another hunter makes this guy a negligent hunter at best. The fact that he packed up and left without reporting the shooting speaks volumes about this guy’s character. He got off easy in my opinion. But that’s just an opinion.
Ron That and that fact alone should earn him a really long jail sentence. Accidental shooting is inexcusable as it stands but just leaving until everything was sorted out , throw the [bleep] book at him.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The fact that he shot another hunter makes this guy a negligent hunter at best. The fact that he packed up and left without reporting the shooting speaks volumes about this guy’s character. He got off easy in my opinion. But that’s just an opinion.
Ron That and that fact alone should earn him a really long jail sentence. Accidental shooting is inexcusable as it stands but just leaving until everything was sorted out , throw the [bleep] book at him. He didn't pack up and leave without reporting it. There's no cell service in the area, they drove down to their hotel and called it in. Do you read before posting?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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A stretch in the Co State Prison System-making blaze orange vests on a sewing machine would be just desserts.
I sold 20 acres near Durango 20 years ago. Like Pagosa Springs though. Still too many migrants
from a large West Coast state and another large state E. of New Mexico. Just my studied opinion.
I used a 405 Winchester on my last large CO elk. There were no bow hunters nearby.
Perhaps only trained Native Americans should carry bows, while only 1850s trappers should get Hawken
muzzle loaders. New Mexico is safer because there are less eastern "hunters".
After serving a term, this PA individual should have been placed on the Western states permanent
bar to license/tag: just like a serious poacher.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena-not the critic"-T. Roosevelt
There are no atheists in fox holes or in the open doors of a para's aircraft.....
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The fact that he shot another hunter makes this guy a negligent hunter at best. The fact that he packed up and left without reporting the shooting speaks volumes about this guy’s character. He got off easy in my opinion. But that’s just an opinion.
Ron That and that fact alone should earn him a really long jail sentence. Accidental shooting is inexcusable as it stands but just leaving until everything was sorted out , throw the [bleep] book at him. He didn't pack up and leave without reporting it. There's no cell service in the area, they drove down to their hotel and called it in. Do you read before posting? Yes Azzzhole , he got down to town reported his stupidity and left. Why was he allowed to leave after murdering someone? This dumb chuck should face jail time under manslaughter.
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Not sure where you got your Information but he was interviewed in person by LE that day, and told them what happened. Kind of hard to do that after leaving.
And he was sentenced to jail. Just not enough IMO. The DA dropped the manslaughter charge.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Not sure where you got your Information but he was interviewed in person by LE that day, and told them what happened. Kind of hard to do that after leaving.
And he was sentenced to jail. Just not enough IMO. The DA dropped the manslaughter charge. How could they drop the manslaughter charge, It was reckless behavior ?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The fact that he shot another hunter makes this guy a negligent hunter at best. The fact that he packed up and left without reporting the shooting speaks volumes about this guy’s character. He got off easy in my opinion. But that’s just an opinion.
Ron That and that fact alone should earn him a really long jail sentence. Accidental shooting is inexcusable as it stands but just leaving until everything was sorted out , throw the [bleep] book at him. He didn't pack up and leave without reporting it. There's no cell service in the area, they drove down to their hotel and called it in. Do you read before posting? Yes Azzzhole , he got down to town reported his stupidity and left. Why was he allowed to leave after murdering someone? This dumb chuck should face jail time under manslaughter. You are one stupid individual, he reported it, was interviewed by the police and ALLOWED to leave. Stupid may not be adequate, moron may be the more accurate term Azzhole
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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How could they drop the manslaughter charge, It was reckless behavior ? You know that he was charged with criminally negligent homicide, right?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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