Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Book: “Custer’s Trials”

You are mixed up. This is not what happened at all.

The plains Indians had all been notified that by the first of January 1876, any Indian not on a reservation would be considered hostile and dealt with accordingly. The reservations having been polled as to the number of Indians on each reservation, gave false numbers to pad the allotments sent to each reservation for their reported numbers. According to the intelligence acquired in those days, there was no way that many Indians were off their respective reservations.

You also have to consider the fact that Custer almost didn't make it to the Little Bighorn as he was required to testify in Washington to the inappropriate and nefarious activities of Grant's brother and William Belknap as they were caught cheating in trading post affairs that were not beneficial to the Indian plight at that time. Custer, who many think hated and wanted to kill Indians are not aware that he was one of their greatest allies for their welfare. As a result, Grant pulled Custer from his position in the 7th Cavalry and it took a lot of work for Sheridan to convince Grant to let Custer go west.

You don't know what you are talking about!

The Finkle story is more like a Fickle story. There hasn't been any certifiable link to any such person in the 7th Cavalry.

However, there is an eyewitness account of 2 soldiers that had made it back to the general vicinity of the pack train near the lone teepee. Years after the battle, Walter Mason Camp interviewed every survivor (both Indian and cavalry) he could find to get their account of what happened. His collection is published in a book called "Custer In 76"

In that book on pages 188-189, The witness tells of seeing two soldiers near the pack train and Lone Teepee site and saw them surrounded by 5 Sioux warriors and surmised they were killed by the Indians.

In our investigation of the property around this area, that no one has access to, we were able to get permission and did some metal detecting and surveying of that area with other accounts that are unknown to historians or the battlefield experts. A resident of that area said he had seen the remains of what appeared to be 2 soldiers in a rock crevice when he was riding his horse in that area as a boy in the 1930's. This account and the testimony recorded in Walter Camp's book give much credibility that some soldiers had escaped the battle, but not to survive...

Concur...

Here is the roster of MOH recipients of the Custer battle in 1876, Your uncle is listed first!


Medals of Honor Awarded in the Little Bighorn River Fight
Individual Rank & Co. Date Citation
Otto Voit Pvt. Co. H 10/5/1878 Bravery in Action
Benj. C. Criswell Sgt. Co. B 10/5/1878 Brought up ammunition
Henry Holden Pvt. Co. D 10/5/1878 Brought up ammunition
Thomas Murray Sgt. Co. B 10/5/1878 Brought up pack train
Richard P. Hanley Sgt. Co. C 10/5/1878 Recaptured pack mule
Chas. Cunningham Pvt. Co. B 10/5/1878 Continued firing though wounded
Henry W. B. Mechlin Bks.* Co. H Sharpshooter for water party
Charles Windolph Pvt. Co. H 10/5/1878 Sharpshooter for water party
George Geiger Sgt. Co. H 10/5/1878 Sharpshooter for water party
James Pym Pvt. Co. B 10/5/1878 Brought water under fire
Neil Bancroft Pvt. Co. A 10/5/1878 Brought water to wounded
Abram B. Brant Pvt. Co. D 10/5/1878 Brought water to wounded
Thomas J. Callan Pvt. Co. B 10/24/1896 Brought water to wounded
Frederick Deetline Bks.* Co. C 10/5/1878 Brought water to wounded
Theodore W. Goldin Pvt. Co. G 12/21/1895 Brought water to wounded
David W. Harris Pvt. Co. A 10/5/1878 Brought water to wounded
William M. Harris Pvt. Co D. 10/5/1878 Brought water to wounded
Rufus D. Hutchinson Sgt. Co. B 10/5/1878 Brought water to wounded
Stanislas Roy Sgt. Co. A 10/5/1878 Brought water to wounded
George D. Scott Pvt. Co. D 10/5/1878 Brought water to wounded
Thomas W. Stivers Pvt. Co. D 10/5/1878 Brought water to wounded
Peter Thompson Pvt. Co. C 10/5/1878 Brought water to wounded
Frank Tolan Pvt. Co. D 10/5/1878 Brought water to wounded
Charles H. Welch Pvt. Co. D 10/5/1878 Brought water to wounded
*Blacksmith

I’ve visited the Battlefield three times in the last 15 years and I always discover something I missed on the previous visits.

Thanks for the reading suggestions gentlemen, I’m needing some more reading material. I just started Empire of the Summer Moon for the third time and I’m craving some new material. 👍

This is a timely thread since Shrapnel is back. I really enjoy these LBH/Custer threads when Shrapnel and others share their knowledge.

Thanks to the OP for the reading suggestion and a good thread.

Is Little Bighorn rightly considered an Indian victory? It seems to me the Army held the field and the Indians retreated ahead of reinforcements.

I understand Custer's battalion was wiped out but Reno and Benteen held their defensive position until the Indians headed for the hills, likely because they had word Terry was approaching.

I was there when I was a boy with my grandparents and while I loved history, especially cowboys and Indians, my understanding of the the Battle of the Greasy Grass was pretty infantile. I thought he was an arrogant ass that through his hatred of Indians and recklessness had gotten his men killed. I bought into the revisionism that surrounds LBH but through the years the more I read about the battle and learned the truth about the varied circumstances that came into play the more I realize that it’s more complicated than we were taught in school.

Looking forward to reading some new stuff on the LBH. I just mentioned to my wife that I want to do a road trip back there and she said “Sure, let’s do it”…I’ll do some more reading while I plan our trip.

I always thought so too, at least until I read more about him. But the more I find out about him, the more I tend to admire him and overlook his many faults.
I think Custer underestimated how many Sioux and Cheyenne were gathered on the Little Big Horn, but as Mike observed, Indian gatherings of that size were unprecedented.
I believe Custer was attempting a repeat of the Washita. There he had unexpectedly found himself surrounded by superior numbers, but through the use of hostages and bluff, was able to get himself out of a jam. In spite of his failure to reconnoiter what he was up against, Custer had made a victory and a name for himself.
“Benteen hated Custer, and Reno hated both of them.”
Words of a Ranger at LBH.
Seven years later on the Little Big Horn, he found himself in a similar situation.
He didn’t have time to reconnoiter, fearing the Indians would escape.
He sent Benteen with 3 companies southwest to be sure they weren’t able to escape that way, and he ordered Reno to charge the village from the south, while he led the remainder of the regiment to cut off escape to the north, and hopefully capture some hostages.
I think when Reno saw what he was up against, he lost his nerve and stopped to form a skirmish line. When his flank started to give way, he ordered a retreat, and finally, When Bloody Knife’s heac and brains exploded on him, he completely lost his cool.
By the time his now leaderless men were trying to set up a defensive position on Reno Hill, he was starting to get drunk.
Benteen deserves praise for rallying his and Reno’s troops, but I still think he would have had time to go to Custer’s assistance. Custer’s younger brother Boston was able to retrieve a horse from the supply train behind Benteen and rejoin his brother on Last Stand Hill.
Benteen’s stop on Reno Hill allowed the Indians to break off that attack and concentrate against Custer’s Battalion.
7mm

In retirement Benteen was promoted to Brigadier General for gallantry at Little Bighorn and the Yellowstone Expedition. He is buried at Arlington along with his wife and Frederick Benteen, their son, also an Army officer.

Welcome back Kirk, I mean Shrapnel.

Like some others I've been a student of this fight for a very long time. Shrapnel and I have discussed this numerous times and we concur on what is becoming more factual due to continued archaeology and scholarship. I've been to the battlefield at least a dozen times starting in the 1980s. One has to read about and understand the frontier Army and the rivalries and enmities among many of the officer corps. Personalities played an important part in these campaigns.

Keep in mind that Custer was on the offensive, this was his nature, right up until the end. Having divided his forces several times he was defeated in detail.

It would be well to consider that the main battle of the Great Sioux War might have been fought just over a week earlier, 17 June, at the Rosebud. There a force of Lakota and Cheyenne stopped Crook who had over 1,000 mounted troops, cavalry as well as the infantry mounted on the pack mules. The battle has often been depicted as a confused melee. Now having visited the Rosebud Battle site three times and found an excellent book, Rosebud June 17, 1876 by Paul Hedren, I have a better idea of that event. It was a battle of movement over an area approximately five miles east to west and at least three miles north to south. Crook was barely able to keep up with the attacks by Lakota and Cheyenne who initially, very nearly over ran the entire command while they were having coffee and Crook was playing whist with his staff officers. His scouts took the brunt of the initial attack and several battalion commanders, most noticeably Captain Anson Mills bought time to respond.

The battle was fluid and several times companies were almost cut off. The battle ended with the Lakota and Cheyenne leaving just as Mills was taking a battalion into the Rosebud narrows. Crook claimed a victory since he held the battlefield. He had been decisively defeated and retreated back to Goose Creek near the present site of Sheridan Wyoming, and went fishing for a month. Crook had botched his part of the campaign, again, just as he had at the Powder River in March 1876.

The Lakota and Cheyenne were thus very confident having defeated a large and well armed force, and this contributed greatly to their victory at the Little Big Horn.

Some other reading,
The Custer Myth by Graham
Lakota Noon by Michno
The archaeology books by Fox and Scott

The Rosebud site is a Montana State Park and is barely developed, much of it on private land which is accessible. I hope it stays the way it is. When I've visited I've had it to myself.

I await Shraps' review. AJ

Not sure, but I think Benteen’s brevet to Brigadier General was awarded for his part in the pursuit of Chief Joseph and the Nez Perce.
At any rate, after his retirement he spent a lot of time telling anyone who would listen what an azzhole Custer was!
Benteen blamed Custer for the loss of Joel Elliot’s command at Washita in 1868. That poisoned his relationship with Custer.
Reno had lost his wife in (IIRC) 1872. After her death, he became the next best thing to an alcoholic. Reno was not well liked even before the battle.
A few years later he was caught peeping through a window at another officer’s daughter. Put out for “conduct unbecoming” , his second marriage ended in divorce and he died of throat cancer, ending up in a pauper’s grave in Washington DC.
In 1968, at the request of his family, his case was re-examined, and the Army expunged his court marshal, and restored his rank and he was re-buried in the LBH Cemetery.
Libbie, Custer’s beautiful widow, was left nearly destitute. She became Custer’s chief defender in the later years, and wrote 3 books about her life with her “Boy General”. She finally died in 1931, 4 days short of her 93rd Birthday.
I think had Sitting Bull not pulled back, the Indians probably could have destroyed the Reno/Benteen detachment as well. It was another full day before Terry’s column reached the LBH, and had they attacked, they could have probably overrun Reno Hill.
But I believe Sitting Bull realized that the payback for Custer’s Battalion alone would turn the tide against his people.
Just outta curiosity, what do you all think of the Crazy Horse Monument under construction?
There are no known pictures of Crazy Horse, and from what I’ve read the Sioux aren’t in favor of the project. They are getting none of the benefits from it as well.
7mm

History.net says Benteen was breveted Brigadier General in 1892 for gallant and meritorious service at Little Bighorn and Canyon Creek.

I've been to the LBH battlefield 4 times and Rosebud once. I've wondered if Custer would have just continued up the Rosebud another day surely he would have found unmistakable evidence of Crooks battle there and what a different outcome it would have been.

Those Indians at LBH apparently were rather timid tacticians or they would have reduced the Reno-Benteen defense site pretty quickly. Seems they were intent on holding the soldiers down while the camp packed up to head for the hills. Didn't hurt that Benteen had a lot more time and opportunity to organize a defense than did Custer.

On a related note, in 2017, I accompanied Wifey when she was working as a travel nurse in Culbertson MT. I only got to LBH one day in August, and it was 113 freakin degrees that day. Needless to say, I didn’t spend nearly as much time walking and examining the field as I would have liked.
I spend 2 or 3 days almost every year in Gettysburg, so getting “Boots On The Ground” is, to me, a very important part of visiting anyplace.
Regardless, I attended a Cavalry re-enactment at Fort Buford in ND that summer, where I met a fellow named Gerry Schultz.
Mr Schultz plays the part of Peter Thompson , who was one of the last troopers from Custer’s Battalion to escape death when his horse gave out.
Many people afterward discounted Thompson’s story, saying it couldn’t have happened the way he described.
At any rate, I spent more than an hour talking to Schultz, who had discovered Thompson’s story after finding a manuscript following a flash flood.
He’s spent an awful lotta time walking Thompson’s route from Medicine Tail Coulee to Reno Hill, and he told me he was in the early stages of writing a book about Thompson and his story of the battle.
Unfortunately, I didn’t get his address, and I haven’t heard of his book or anything.
I ran across the website posted above, and thought I’d include it in this discussion for the thoughts of some of the other “Custerphiles” on here.
7mm

7mm, the peeper and buried in a paupers grave was Reno.

Yes, I was talking about Reno. The paragraph earlier had referred to Benteen, but it was ended and I referred to Reno losing his wife and turning to the bottle.
7mm

Speculation is one of the biggest contributors to the Custer myth.

So much could have or may have happened, but had Custer survived, the reports and conditions as we know it would be completely different. Much of the testimony right after the battle, changed by the time of Reno’s court of inquiry almost 3 years later.

It is also convenient that the court of inquiry was over 2 years later, which is past any deadline for an official “Court Martial.” This certainly was in Reno’s favor as the worst that could happen is the tarnish on his reputation would remain, with no dishonorable end of his career, although he was later dishonorably discharged for practices ”unbecoming.” Reno was not found guilty of any malfeasance, but had Custer survived, that would have changed the outcome of the Court Of Inquiry.

As far as Crook was concerned, he should have been brought up on charges of insubordination. There has never been any real investigation into his actions on the Rosebud, yet he was a critical part of the plan to contain the Indians in the Little Bighorn vicinity. He fired over 25,000 rounds of ammunition and hit only a handful of Indians and had Crook not had the 200 Indian scouts with him, he may have suffered the same fate as Custer did.

Had Custer survived, Crook would have been investigated.

The events have been told and retold since the battle, there is no shortage of different accounts. The testimonies of the soldiers and officers by the time of Reno’s inquiry changed dramatically and Custer became the goat. Everyone from General Terry on down, recanted testimony from what was given just after the battle.

Even Terry tried to convince everyone that Custer disobeyed orders, yet his orders survive today, verbatim. Nowhere in his orders does it show that Custer disobeyed anything Terry wrote, but the survivors are the ones that write history. Had Custer survived, this wouldn’t even be a consideration.

The survivors of the worst American defeat in history, and on the Anniversary of the 100 years since signing the Declaration Of Independence, needed to put blame somewhere else that would exonerate themselves and the image of the United States Army. Had Custer survived, the blame would have been placed where it belonged.

Testimony did change, but what happened only happened once. One of the best accounts of the debacle at the river crossing and route of Reno to the hilltop, was from George Herendeen, who had been hired as a mule skinner, but turned into a scout because of his intimate knowledge of Indians and the Bighorn valley. He was very critical of Reno at the river, and he had taken about 15 troopers into the woods at the river and kept them safe until they later joined Reno at the top of the hill without a single casualty. He knew how to survive and was capable enough to witness Reno for who he really was. Herendeen was still critical of Reno at the Court Of Inquiry.

Speculation is legion in the whole affair of the battle. Studying the accounts from reputable sources help to sort out what did happen. Once a person investigates Custer and the battle, the comments of “dumbass” “Indian Hater” “wanted to be President” and many more labels that are given him, it is certain that Custer would be remembered as a stellar Cavalry Leader with no equal during the Civil War. He was more than capable as an Indian fighter and at his best on the battlefield. Had Custer survived his legacy would be far from what it is today.

Years later an observation by a contemporary Indian fighter General Nelson A. Miles had this observation:


"The more I see of movements here the more admiration I have for Custer," Colonel Nelson Miles wrote from the field to his wife several months after the Battle of the Little Big horn," and I am satisfied his like will not be found very soon again."

Nice write up shrapnel.

I got to try and visit there this summer and get a “feel” for it.