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I grew up in Boise in the 50's and 60's. I can remember when the seasons there were mostly either sex. The hunting pressure is vastly higher now.

I'm not even 40 yet. On one hand I'm glad and excited more people are getting involved in hunting and fishing, but on the other its frustrating trying to do "my" thing and still be able to avoid people...
Whole 'nother rant about east side archery tags going to draw (requiring pref points) while west (where I've always hunted anyway) is still OTC and our spring bear hunts (historically having very low rates of hunter commitment) are on a draw system; sidelining those that are committed while wasting tags on those who draw and don't/only invest minimal time/effort...

For a comment; lose the background music. I don't care if it's country, pop, rap, or death-metal, it all sucks in a hunting video. What's so bad about the sound wind in the trees, footsteps, creeks, etc? Never understood the need to drown out the sound of the mountains with some over-the-top twangy or screaming guitar.

This.

I don’t hate NRs. In fact, I’ve hosted a couple from right here on the Campfire on Idaho hunts. You seem like an altogether agreeable guy too.

But pimping your videos on YouTube and social media while simultaneously complaining about hunting pressure is a bit like chitting your pants and then wondering aloud to the room where the smell is coming from.

It’s also a part of why NRs are suddenly struggling to purchase tags in Idaho that were once easy to get. If the exchange of likes/subscriptions are worth it to you,…then by all means carry on.

Dave

“Shiitting your pants and wondering where the smell came from”!! Haha god damn I just peed a little!!! Lmao

All fair points and I even agree with them. Again, I don’t think increased hunter pressure is THE key component, but in my very uneducated opinion, it serves to reason that it is ONE of them IMO.

I’ve gone back and forth on the topic of keeping it all a big secret vs hunter recruitment (or “pimping” my own adventures). Also as I mentioned I’m from a small Oregon coastal community rooted largely in the timber and commercial fishing industry (and I have 4 generations of family history, tradition and sentiment connected to that fishery BTW) but both of those have all but gone belly up and forgotten about in my lifetime and replaced by tourism as staple… if you’re an avid spring bear hunter in Oregon or savvy to how the draw went last year, you know what a disappointment the draw was last year. We had over 5,000 NEW spring bear applicants for the ‘21 draw and tags that used to be OTC just a few years ago, ppl have built up 3 years of points for now!?!? God knows there’s certainly no shortage of bears around here… I’ve totally been bit in the arse by supporting hunter recruitment! And that’s not the first time…

Talk about a rock and a hard place! But for me I look at it as, “Do I want my way of life, this chapter of family history and something that is as dear and I am as passionate about to die with me or should I use my experiences to draw attention to, instill a passion for and help build support around these thing I love?”

And that how I’ve landed where I am… I hate hunting spots being over run with people as much as anyone but if it means there’s a cost for knowing my kids and others’ future generations will have an opportunity to experience the things I have; I’ll pay it. Take a minute to look up a bill that has been presented in Oregon called IP13 ( https://oregonfb.org/ip13/ ) hunter pressure should be the least of our worries when it comes to the future of hunting. OR lost baiting bear and hound hunting in ‘94-by a VERY narrow margin and thanks to detrimental propaganda that influenced people who were otherwise neutral. Therefore I want to continue to build support for the outdoors by sharing my experiences.

Dave does have a way with words

Idaho has SOLD OUT of all available tags….again. How much more recruitment exactly do you think is needed for North Idaho white-tail hunts?

You can tell yourself you’re doing it for “hunter recruitment”, but that’s simply an attempt to stake the moral high-ground imho. You may actually believe your YouTube/social media pursuits are rooted in altruism, but color me skeptical. It’s what I hear from EVERY single person in your position.

I believe in hunter recruitment too. I just approach it differently…



I started to upload a couple of dozen of these types of photos, but this one pretty well covers it. I’m a strong advocate for recruiting new hunters, but we’ll have to agree to disagree on how to best make that happen.

I wish you no ill-will friend, but the recruitment angle rings hollow since every time I hear that claim it’s coming from someone that’s filming their own exploits and asking people to “like” them.

I’d encourage you to read article by Matt Rinella linked earlier. It was a profound piece imho. It’s helped me re-evaluate some of my own motivations honestly.

My apologies if I’m coming off like a bit of a dik…it’s only because I am. You’re clearly not a bad guy, but YouTube and social media are the devil.

Dave

Word....

Dave, you nailed it. Well said!

Oh yay! Yet another hunting channel on youtube. 3/10. Hope giving away the area you and others hunt is worth the 1500 views.

Be real on why you’re making the videos. You haven’t been yet and everyone can see through the BS.

Hey, Dave, it’s no problem. I don’t think you’re a dick, or even trying to be one. I'm actually glad we can have and hold a conversation about it. I hope to hit your key points and those of a few other responses all in one without responding to each one of them individually...
-As a side note, one of my biggest complaints of electronic communication is what’s lost by not everyone being physically in the same room and I feel like that might be part of what's lacking in my explanations. I don’t want you, or anyone else, to get the impression that I’m trying to exploit or ruin the North Idaho whitetail hunting by posting this video.
-If you look around on our channel you'll see other hunts, most of which are in the "backyard" and in areas the person who filmed it calls home. We don't go out of our way to hide relative location and in our more recent videos have made it a point to give a comparatively specific (or vague depending on how you want to look at it) location as "North Idaho" because we WANT people to know what opportunities are out there.
-I think it's also worth noting I've written in depth "campfire story" versions of this specific hunt and other trips both out of state and closer to home. I've shared them on this forum and others. Some other forums show the number of times a post is viewed and some of those stories have been viewed thousands more times than this video.
In October 2017 I even shared a link to this same video, here on 24campfire when it was listed on my personal channel without my motive being questioned. I'm genuinely curious, what's changed? What is and where is the line between someone sharing their own personal adventures on a forum or other social media and what I'm doing. Is it a logo? The fact I was encouraging likes and subscribing? If so, is it a matter of tact? And if that's the case, what are your thoughts in refining my approach? I'd appreciate any input you might have since it appears I rubbed you the wrong way and are admired by a portion of other members of the forum (which to me attests to your character)
The hunt we've been discussing occurred almost 5 years ago. When I made it, it was intended to be more of a 'live' photo album; mostly just for memories for my longtime friend and I. I uploaded it to youtube simply for ease of sharing with friends and family. Much to my surprise it gained much more attention than I would have ever imagined.

Fast forward to last summer. My buddy (seen in video) took over this production group from a friend of his that had founded it. After many different philosophical talks about a lot of the points mentioned above, what we each wanted out of and for our efforts between him and I, I agreed to get involved and put ourselves out there. He and I are currently the only ones involved in production. Amidst editing some of our hunts from last year, I had the thought to use and add this older video to our new channel and share it from that platform.
Are we looking for an ego stroke? Not in the least. (if that was the case, why would I take the time to have this talk with you over soaking up praise elsewhere?)
What are we intending to get out of it? Nothing that hasn't already been mentioned in this thread.
Why are we doing this? In addition to my motives I've already listed, it'd be fair to say that it's an added new challenge to include videoing a hunt. Even if just for our own memories, It's fun to produce and put these together. I also enjoy writing stories about the same thing you see on these videos and for the same reason-it's fun!
Would it be great to make a couple million bucks off youtube? Absolutely.
Is that going to happen? 100,000:1 odds it doesn't.
Does that make a difference to me? Not a bit.

I think that's awesome you're taking kids! Taking kids and first timers and seeing what I can share with them is largely what's influenced my stance on the subject. I wish I could do it more! On the other hand I have three young kids myself so they take priority when I have a chance or plans for something that's appropriate to their skill level. I've heard the arguments for and against (including the Matt Rinella article before it was posted here) hunter recruitment and at the end of the day, it's the camp I (and I think both of us) land in; you and I just take different approaches.
I'm not writing all this in hopes you'll change your approach, but maybe reconsider mine. My explanation may sound empty or hollow as you read it, and that I'm sorry for. Maybe in another situation or under different circumstances I could convey my thoughts and feelings differently and more clearly. The social media approach is far from perfect and has its own set of flaws and it's nowhere near as impactful or productive as direct mentorship but at this point in my life, it's what I can do and with the resources I have.

BBB,

Let me start by saying I'm not the arbitrator of right and wrong. I can only speak to my own experiences and feelings. Just because I believe something doesn't make it so. You asked though, so I'll answer as best I can.

"In October 2017 I even shared a link to this same video, here on 24campfire when it was listed on my personal channel without my motive being questioned. I'm genuinely curious, what's changed?" --

From my perspective, it's a couple of things. (1) Market saturation. There are seemingly a million dudes now looking to make money doing what you're doing. It's getting....old...in a hurry. It's America and that's still your God-given right of course, but you probably shouldn't expect that everyone on the www is going to be super keen on you turning a buck at the expense of making it MORE difficult for many (most) of us to do the same thing sans profit. By your own admission, what you posted in 2017 was just your own channel meant to share with friends/family. Now you're part of a "production group". If the difference between those two scenarios isn't obvious, it's only because a person is being willfully obtuse.

I've sent two e-mails now to "hunting production companies" that posted videos with VERY easy to recognize landmarks in the same drainage(s) I hunt. Not coincidentally, they suddenly got VERY crowded. That's not your fault of course, but you're doing the same thing to lots of other dudes out there whether you realize it or not. Nothing can ruin an area faster than an "influencer" with a camera. It's becoming a common occurrence in the hunting world, and it's about as welcome as a dose of the clap by many.

(2) From my perspective, you've reduced hunting to a commodity. I checked, and the last two years you've posted nothing outside of the classifieds and "look at me" videos. Again, that's your right and well within rules of the Campfire I suppose,...but it speaks to a mindset from my perspective...which is how can this site benefit you. In fairness, that doesn't seem to be the case when you first joined based on a cursory glance at some of your first posts in 2017. Don't get me wrong, there are LOTS of dudes using the site merely for their own benefit. The difference as I see it is that most of them aren't on here claiming to be doing so under the guise of "hunter recruitment" or some other altruistic cause.

The "hunter recruitment" angle is also falling on deaf ears for most of us that have hunted for any length of time...especially in Western states. Numbers may be dropping SOMEWHERE in America, but it damn sure isn't in Idaho. Had you posted a turkey hunting video in Arkansas or deer hunting in Texas.....I likely wouldn't have thought to comment. I just thought it was wildly disingenuous to do so in the context of hunting out west though. That was further brought into sharp focus by your own, simultaneous note that deer hunting has diminished up there the last few years. There is ZERO doubt that it's getting increasingly difficult to get a tag in any western state...resident OR non-resident. You're videos don't help with that. It's really that simple.

Look, I fully admit my own motivations are (mostly) selfish in nature. I don't like your videos SPECIFICALLY because I believe (know) they make my own efforts that much more difficult. That trade off might be worth it for you in terms of likes/money/etc, but it doesn't hold much water for me....or apparently a few others that also posted on this particular thread.

"And if that's the case, what are your thoughts in refining my approach? I'd appreciate any input you might have".

I think I've been pretty clear in my criticisms, but I'll summarize as briefly as I can.

1. Stop saying it's for "recruitment". Maybe you really believe that....but damn few other people will...especially if they've been hunting for more than 10 minutes. You sound like my buddies that drink my beer and then tell me they're doing it to help me watch my weight. The claim of recruitment undermines your efforts, even if you actually believe you're "helping" other hunters.

2. Don't complain about hunter "crowding" while simultaneously making a video that will only exacerbate that situation.

3. Get thicker skin. If you're going to commercialize hunting and put it out there for the world to see, you should expect some negative feedback. I admire your willingness to engage in a discussion, but it's not one you're going to "win". As such, don't waste a lot of time trying to change the mind of people who's mind you're very likely NOT going to change....like me.

4. A previous poster was correct...less music in the videos if you insist on making them. If you notice, the most popular videos (think Netflix/Amazon) have very little of that stuff. It's...cheesy.

Good luck on your endeavors friend, and I mean that.....even if I wish every person in the world would stop following every single hunting "influencer" in the world. In spite of my tone, I can read the tea leaves here well enough to know you're probably a heck of a nice guy in general.

Dave

Why someone would drop couple of F bombs during the good times and youth recruiting is puzzling to me. Nice video of beautiful country and friends enjoying the passion.

Because you pimped them out to the world. I think Idaho is a great place for you. I hope you STAY there.

Let me start by saying I'm not the arbitrator ... best I can.

-No, I don't suppose you are, but you are one of the first to have anything of the contrary to say and certainly the only person to exchange in any kind of dialogue.

"In October 2017 ... curious, what's changed?"
From my perspective ... of us to do the same thing sans profit.

-Very accurate and agreed. Without getting too deep into my personal life, I work in a very specific and unique career field. One of those jobs that a lot of kids grow up wanting to become. Funny thing is, I was NOT one of those kids and regularly shunned the profession until I was a young adult where I began to gain a bit of insight that influenced my opinion. 2 of the key takeaways were 1) That guy is an idiot and shouldn't be doing this job/missing the point of the profession; even I could do better than that- 2) (also much less often than the other) That person is fantastic in this position; they portray and conduct themselves professionally and the are reflective of the position in a positive way, dispels stereotypes and makes a difference to those they come in contact with; there needs to be more like them-As I write and reread that, one could consider that philosophy and perspective as a personal motivation.

By your own admission ... being willfully obtuse.

-Point taken and something I had not entirely considered until you put it in your, appreciatively, blunt way. I'll be kick this around for a while and see if and how it changes things for me...

I've sent two e-mails ... a dose of the clap by many.

-I've seen this too from others. I would feel invaded, betrayed or violated if a specific area that I hunt was blatantly depicted for the world to see. Again, I want people to know what's around them but keep it anonymous enough to encourage others to find their "own" spots. Exception being the Once-In-a-Lifetime goat tag I drew (which happens to also be the ONLY tag issued for that unit per year) and my home fishing port, Cape Kiwanda, Pacific City, Oregon. Aside from a huge barrier to entry the fishery's unique quality is what warrants the special attention IMO and to not disclose it's location and highlight the differences would be self defeating. You're also right in that I could have tainted someone's spot without knowing. If it makes a difference to you or anyone else, to my knowledge, nothing I've shown is anything that would be distinguishable to anyone besides the people that already hunt it. I've had people comment or message me about "knowing" where a clip was filmed but as of this moment, nobody has been remotely close or chose to engage beyond snarky comments and threats of slashed tires (and I have continued to frequent those spots during hunting seasons with all 4 tires intact) so I'm failing to see the harm of the process in which I select segments and leads me to believe your conclusion might be a little premature.

(2) From my perspective ... some other altruistic cause.

-That makes sense and very reasonable how you came to that. You're entirely right on a couple parts but I think this, in part, might be missing some context or what is lost in written-only conversation. Then again, I may have been the one who missed something earlier. I have an innate compulsion to helping with issues that are within my realm and get a great deal of satisfaction from helping other achieve a milestone. Regardless of their degree of success, has no bearing on my willingness to offer insight. If gaining a level of personal satisfaction taints the altruistic spectrum, then that will likely be another one of the differences. I saw your posts too of your son's bulls and I can tell you beam with pride as any father would. I get that same sense (but maybe differing levels) of reward when strangers check back in and share updates and with my own kids.
You are 100% accurate in my activity on this forum. I've been a member of a couple others for a looong time and 24campfire was one that was frequently referenced. Initially when I joined I tried to engage similarly to the other forums I'm a part of but found it wasn't as conducive to me as the others but still found some benefit (ie classifieds) so my use has remained pretty limited. Along those same lines and for a variety of irrelevant reasons late 2018 I broke down, made a facebook account and have slowly been less and less active in forums and more active in several dozen discussion groups there. If I felt it would influence your personal opinion of me, my motives and my willingness to help/mentor others there I could dig up, screennames, forums, specific threads and group names; but I don't get the impression that's the issue or a concern for you.

The "hunter recruitment" angle is ... help with that. It's really that simple.

-Before we even put the wheels in motion to hunt there, I did my research and poured over the harvest statistics, made phone calls to bios, looked at maps for hours to make an educated guess where would be a good starting point. The general consensus I found was that the region, as a whole, was showing an over all decline in harvest dating back at least to 2012 predates most of the largest booms in designated hunting related YT videos. Even with what impact YT and other social media may have had, there's A LOT of other factors to be considered (wolves, large scale logging operations, natural cycles, covid cabin fever, improved general economy, general regulation changes to name a few) that each present their own imposition and effects. Because of all those considerations I don't have the information to substantiate a hard position in support or opposition to any of those and in turn influenced my decision making leading me to this point. You may disagree but that's my thought process.
I touched on it in one of my earlier responses (#17120444) but I should have applied more differentiation and emphasized where and how I prioritize support from non-hunters and how it relates in totality to my position. I think we'd agree that there's a lot of content that's out there that conflicts with our personal ethos, portrays a negative image of hunters and some of it is downright disturbing. I watched the tradition and culture of hound hunting (and use of bait for bears) get stripped away from Oregon hunters when I was a kid (pre-youtube). In an attempt to repeal the law, hound hunting advocates found through surveys, one of the biggest influences that pushed people to oppose hound hunting who were previously neutral or undecided on the subject was the use of distasteful and unsettling video clips the "anti's" got their hands on. Because we live in a day and age where misinformation and conformation biases are readily available and bills like IP 13 (referenced in same post) gain as much traction as they do, I want to contribute what I can to offset circling inaccuracies.

Look, I fully admit my own … posted on this particular thread.

FWIW, we are NOT monetized. Thus far we're entirely self funded. We don't receive compensation from any avenue (at this point) but conversely, neither my buddy or I would turn our noses up at it. I wouldn’t necessarily call your motives, “selfish.” In this case I’d consider it more a prioritization of your immediate concerns. To reiterate, we’re not seeking uninhibited adoration (but the ‘likes’ etc are a facet to extending the scope of our reach). If it doesn’t speak to you, there’s no hard feelings-even when you flat out don’t like them. Rest assured, I’ve got my big boy pants on so… sticks and stones… The fact that you’re willing to have this conversation has given me some points I need to address within myself and go over with my partner. It’d be foolish for him and I to legitimately “THINK” we’re going to make it ‘big’ off this and who knows, we may decide to take it all down if we’re not seeing the impact we were hoping for. We’re learning as we go and I’m glad I got a chance to hear your very candid opinion, so thank you for that!

"And if that's the case … "helping" other hunters.
2. Don't complain … exacerbate that situation.

-Just a point of clarification, I haven’t meant for anything you and I have gone over to be intended as a complaint and more so of a general observation (my comments about ODFW’s draw system should have been rephrased as an area of concern regarding their procedure and methodology). Off the top of my head, I can’t remember having and issues with hunts/stalks in Idaho being ruined or affected by other people and the factors leading to a reduction of opportunity are of my very unscientific perception.

3. Get thicker skin…NOT going to change....like me.

-I haven’t lost any sleep because of anything you, or anyone else has said. Despite our differences I think you and I probably agree on more than not; but that would make for a boring conversation I don’t believe in browbeating anyone into conformity but do want to be an open door for anyone who’s curios, has questions about my experiences, opinion or interested in comparing their own.

4. A previous poster was correct...It's...cheesy.

-Again, I whole heartedly agree with you. The clips seen in this whitetail video we’re never meant for or taken with any intent to be shared with the masses. It’s raw and crude nature portrays a better sense of being relatable or “real” which has partially lead to its early popularity. That’s one problem I’ve struggled with heavily (logistically and internally) during the production of videos from 2021 seasons. Next time I’m going to work with inserting some concise narration rather than relying on trying to get a full thought out, on (usable) video, in the moment.

Good luck on your endeavors friend, and I mean that.....even if I wish every person in the world would stop following every single hunting "influencer" in the world. In spite of my tone, I can read the tea leaves here well enough to know you're probably a heck of a nice guy in general.

-The content of you last paragraph tells me something about your integrity and I like it. A lot of what you offered would only come from someone with certain qualities. Beyond that, the willingness to carry on a dialogue of opposing viewpoints without letting it turn into a futile pissing match (over the internet nonetheless) is almost unheard of anymore, so again, thanks for sharing your thoughts and poking a couple holes in my notions. Who knows, maybe once I digest some of your cynicism and apply to my philosophy maybe you’ll even hit that subscribe button lol
I bet you and I could go round and round for hours about why the ‘06 is or isn’t the best all around hunting cartridge ever made and I’d still buy you a beer even though you’re CLEARLY wrong on that too…

And it's also why NR's will sometimes find flat tires on their vehicles when they comes into areas in big groups, in Idaho elk and deer hunting, block roads and say the mountain is theirs because they claimed it first. Sad when NR's pimp out states for a few likes. Not just in Idaho but in Montana, Colorado, Wyoming. Just enjoy your hunt and dont pimp it out Last year had a group from Washington block a trail with their vehicles and when II parked and just walked around they said dont expect my truck to be in very good shape when I returned. that didn't turn out too well because I knew better and the video on my cell was on lol The sheriffs up in Boundary County dont care for that type of hunter harassment


The folks in Idaho really appreciate what they and are generally very helpful but when outsider come in and try and ruin things that typically upsets them. We already are fighting big culture war here