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Originally Posted by brinky72
My uncles,dad and I ran Speer flat base (hot Cor) bullets exclusively back in the eighties and nineties shooting a lot of crop damage deer. 280’s, 270’s and 25-06’s. Never had issues with a bullet one. We tried some Speer BTs in the 270 and 257 variety and they started to show a little weakness if pushed hard. I still have some 145 gr BTSP 7mm that I use in my 280 Rem. Very accurate and work excellent on deer but I don’t run them hard out of my 280


I have used a few over the years. The only one I had issues with is the 7mm 130 Hot Cor flat base. I don't have rifle I can make them shoot out of. I have tried a few boxes of them and they just don't shoot for beans in a few of my rifles. Now, the Boattailed version shoots well. No darned idea.


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Originally Posted by roundoak
Originally Posted by TrueGrit
Originally Posted by roundoak
We are not shooting game in a laboratory, rather, in many cases a swimming pool of schet and when the bullet reaches its target, we expect it to perform as advertised. The worst bullet I have encountered is the Sierra .257 90 grain HPBT used in the 250-3000 Savage and .257 Roberts. My Dad and Uncles read the Sierra advertising and Ken Waters comments and began using it in their 250 Savages and 257 Roberts. Working up loads in their rifles showed accuracy that bested all other bullets. Euphoric is the best description.

Subsequent use in Wisconsin and Montana deer camps proved the bullet was not reliable on deer.

I had to see for myself, so Dad loaded some for my Savage 99. I killed 3 deer with it at a distance between 175 and 200 yards. All three lung shots, only one bullet exited. Next deer was a nice Mule deer buck that came trotting up out of a coulee and when I stopped him with a whistle he was 50 yards away. Put a 90 gr HPBT into his near shoulder thinking that would anchor him to keep him from tumbling back down into that steep coulee. He bucked into the air and went out of sight into another coulee. I raced over the ridge back expecting to see him down. Nope, he was 3/4 of the way up the wall of the next coulee. I went prone and thru the scope he looked to be about 250 yards and put the cross hairs on top of his neck/back waiting for him to pause. He did and went down at the shot. My first shot splashed on his shoulder and second hit the spine.

Another time, I had the 90 gr splash on a Whitetail shoulder at short range and required a second shot.

Dad and my Uncles were right.

I still keep some of the bullets on hand for accuracy testing. If a .257 caliber rifle does not shoot good groups with that bullet, generally there are other issues.

Quotes:

Sierra .257 90 grain HPBT

Sierra Website

It will perform as a varmint bullet at high velocities, but it may also be used on medium game from smaller-capacity cartridges, such as the 250-3000 Savage and 257 Roberts.

Sierra Reloading Manual 4th Edition

250-3000 Realistically, the 100 grain bullets are probably the best choice for deer sized game. The 87 grain spitzer and 90 grain HPBT bullets will serve well for varmints, but are only adequate for deer and antelope if shots are placed precisely.

257 Roberts Reloaders find the 87 grain Spitzer and 90 grain HPBT serve well for most long-range varmint shooting, while the 100 grain Spitzer and Spitzer Boat Tail give best results on deer-sized game.

Ken Waters - Pet Loads Vo. 1

250-3000 (1975) Our table of loads tells the full story of bullet and load results. I'll just add the comment that I confess to being intrigued with that 90-grain Sierra hollow-point boat-tail driven at better than 2,900 fps. While I realize that it has neither the sectional density of the various 100 grain bullets, nor the ballistic coefficient of either 100 or 87 grain spitzers, it may just prove capable of doing the work of both heavier and lighter weights. I dunno, not having had an opportunity to try it on game, but it will be interesting to watch the reports as they come in from the field on this relatively new bullet.




Bad judgement and bullet placement.


Oh, I see nothing to do with bullet construction, yet when some of us changed to 87 grain Speer HotCors we punched shoulders and most double lung shots were a complete pass thru.


Maybe you need to re-read what you typed. All 3 deer lung shot and only one bullet pass through? And then you shoot a buck in the shoulder and expect a different result? I call that bad judgement or bullet placement or both actually. At least you figured out what you needed to do to fix your situation.


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Example of one. Number of years ago I thought I'd try Winchesters Power Max bonded in my 270wsm. They were fast in my Browning ti 3300 + with 130gr. It had snowed 9" the night before and it was sunny and still in the morning. I left the house crossed the pasture and into the timber. I was sneaking along when I got to the clear cut and started seeing does near me. Wasn't long before I hear a buck gruntting he stops broadside at less than 30 yards. I hold behind his shoulder and shoot. He takes off running tail up waggin back and forth jumping over blow downs like he's the star in a documentary. He goes 100 yds turns left another 30yds and into the thick stuff. I'm thinking what just happened. He is a mature buck about 140 lds or so. I get over to his tracks and see one very small drop of blood. 130 yards latter he's piled up. Dressing him out just looked like a lung shot deer with pass through. If not for the fresh snow I would of needed to borrow someone's dog.


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TrueGrit, I would not go so far as to call it bad judgement, rather expectation of an advertised bullet.

It was not a major concern when two bucks were killed with no bullet exit, just a little disappointed because I am in the two hole camp. I was not about to throw the baby out with baby water yet. I had experience busting shoulders with old Hornady 87 grain bullets, so I did not hesitate to take the shot on the Mule deer. After the shoulder splash on the Mule deer and comparing notes with others using the bullet, I decided not to use it on deer anymore. Too bad, it was the most accurate bullet in the Savage 99-F.

Some reading this may wonder why not use a 100 grain bullet on deer. It would not stabilize a 100 grain bullet and was probably the reason why Dad got such a good deal on it. Dad and I checked the twist and a second opinion was obtained with a gunsmith. It was close to a 1-15" ROT.


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Originally Posted by roundoak
TrueGrit, I would not go so far as to call it bad judgement, rather expectation of an advertised bullet.

It was not a major concern when two bucks were killed with no bullet exit, just a little disappointed because I am in the two hole camp. I was not about to throw the baby out with baby water yet. I had experience busting shoulders with old Hornady 87 grain bullets, so I did not hesitate to take the shot on the Mule deer. After the shoulder splash on the Mule deer and comparing notes with others using the bullet, I decided not to use it on deer anymore. Too bad, it was the most accurate bullet in the Savage 99-F.

Some reading this may wonder why not use a 100 grain bullet on deer. It would not stabilize a 100 grain bullet and was probably the reason why Dad got such a good deal on it. Dad and I checked the twist and a second opinion was obtained with a gunsmith. It was close to a 1-15" ROT.



I had an older (1920’s vintage) takedown 250-3000 Savage 99. Passed it along to my cousin for his boys to have and keep in the family. My grandfather shot a lot of heavy bodied (220+lb) UP bucks with that rifle and 87 grain bullets. Unfortunately things change and there aren’t a lot of 14” ish twist 250 Savages floating around that require a good 87 grain bullet so I’m sure Speer and everyone else doesn’t take the time and resources to build a stout light for caliber .257 bullet. Sucks because that is an accurate and handy little rifle. If only Savage still built them of that quality in say a 9” twist.


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Originally Posted by brinky72
Originally Posted by roundoak
TrueGrit, I would not go so far as to call it bad judgement, rather expectation of an advertised bullet.

It was not a major concern when two bucks were killed with no bullet exit, just a little disappointed because I am in the two hole camp. I was not about to throw the baby out with baby water yet. I had experience busting shoulders with old Hornady 87 grain bullets, so I did not hesitate to take the shot on the Mule deer. After the shoulder splash on the Mule deer and comparing notes with others using the bullet, I decided not to use it on deer anymore. Too bad, it was the most accurate bullet in the Savage 99-F.

Some reading this may wonder why not use a 100 grain bullet on deer. It would not stabilize a 100 grain bullet and was probably the reason why Dad got such a good deal on it. Dad and I checked the twist and a second opinion was obtained with a gunsmith. It was close to a 1-15" ROT.



I had an older (1920’s vintage) takedown 250-3000 Savage 99. Passed it along to my cousin for his boys to have and keep in the family. My grandfather shot a lot of heavy bodied (220+lb) UP bucks with that rifle and 87 grain bullets. Unfortunately things change and there aren’t a lot of 14” ish twist 250 Savages floating around that require a good 87 grain bullet so I’m sure Speer and everyone else doesn’t take the time and resources to build a stout light for caliber .257 bullet. Sucks because that is an accurate and handy little rifle. If only Savage still built them of that quality in say a 9” twist.
Savage came out with the 99-A 1971-1982 in 250-3000 with a 20" or 22" barrel. ROT 1-10"and I bought a used one. Speer has the stellar 87 grain HotCor and that is all I use on Whitetail deer. I could load 100 grain and up for that A, but the Speer is very accurate and has killed a lot of deer.

Last edited by roundoak; 04/06/22.

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Roundoak, makes me wonder what twist my 250 is? Brass shell counter and shnable fore end


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Originally Posted by Pharmseller
One episode tells you exactly nothing BUT I quit using Bergers after a little 3x3 Mulie decided not to die quickly despite 3 solid lung hits with a 140 gr VLD-Hunting from a 7mm-08.

He died sure enough but it took far longer than I either wanted or expected.


I just booked a hunt with an outfitter with 25 years in the business,

He says, Please, No Berger bullets on the hunt...Too many bad experiences....

And that was the rifle I was thinking of taking along....LOL.

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What ya huntin Ken?


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Dall sheep in the Brooks Range, AK.

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So now I'll take your other favorite bullet,

Barnes.

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Bergers are by far the most hated/loved bullet out there as far as I can tell. People's experiences (my own included) with them are either really good or really bad. Even barnes has some middle ground users, but not berger.

I find that really interesting.



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I killed my dall last year with a 6.5mm 135 berger classic.
Solid head on chest hit at 130 yards. He stood up and stared at me on the edge of a 1000 foot cliff. I am sure he would have died right there and soon but the last thing I wanted him to do was fall off the cliff so I put a second round in him, this time broadside. He stumbled for 4-5 seconds then fell over. The first shot---straight on---entered in between the collar bone and neck bone and blew up in the top of lungs. The second shot, tight behind the shoulder also blew up in the lungs but didn't exit or even make it to the far side hide despite not hitting any bone.

They worked and some animals just need shot twice, but I have yet to see a berger shot critter instantly fold up like so many videos show, and so many others say they see. It is so weird how different people have different experiences.



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Originally Posted by Kenneth
Dall sheep in the Brooks Range, AK.


Nice man pretty fine boned critters. You’d think Berger would be peas and carrots


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Originally Posted by T_Inman
I killed my dall last year with a 6.5mm 135 berger classic.
Solid head on chest hit at 130 yards. He stood up and stared at me on the edge of a 1000 foot cliff. I am sure he would have died right there and soon but the last thing I wanted him to do was fall off the cliff so I put a second round in him, this time broadside. He stumbled for 4-5 seconds then fell over. The first shot---straight on---entered in between the collar bone and neck bone and blew up in the top of lungs. The second shot, tight behind the shoulder also blew up in the lungs but didn't exit or even make it to the far side hide despite not hitting any bone.

They worked and some animals just need shot twice, but I have yet to see a berger shot critter instantly fold up like so many videos show, and so many others say they see. It is so weird how different people have different experiences.


T, any pics of the Ram?

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If the Outfitter says Bergers not preferred, I’m not about to start the hunt on the wrong foot,

But damn that Creedmore loves the 140 VLD hunting bullet, most accurate load I have, Tikka, 7.5 lbs scoped and loaded,

Seemed like a great Sheep set up.

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I shot quite a few critters with the 105 berger in a 6mm-06. Coyote size to mature muley. Everything died and typically in short order. Rarely got exits on bigger mulies, almost always on antelope/whitetails. I switched to the Barnes LRX for less meat loss when we can't always get it broadside through the ribs. Would still happily kill with the 105 but very pleased with the LRX.

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Originally Posted by Kenneth


T, any pics of the Ram?


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The week before, when I first spotted him.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]



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The Brooks? Terrain looks to be?

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Talkeetnas.
It does look similar to the Brooks.



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