Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game New hunters.

Is the recent push by many groups and individuals to bring in new Western hunters a good thing, or will it backfire in the long run?

IMO it has definitely fanned the resident, non resident flames. With such a finite resource, how much is to much?

SLM, guess it depends on your definition of “good”. Technology is hurting us as much of more than the movie stars IMO. “Hunters” shootin game with rifles over 1000 yards, muskets accurate over 500, folks shooting bows over 100 yards, onyx, rangefinders, Bluetooth scope/rangefinders,are making folks way more successful than 15-20 years ago. Always bitched about Washington, but, I can hunt Blacktail, Muleys and whitetail every year with any weapon, Roosevelt and Rocky mtn branched bulls every year with any weapon, 2 bears and 2 cougar every year, then I can drive a hour south to Oregon and do pretty much the same thing, 6 hours east to Idaho, do pretty much the same thing again, 8 hours to Montana and hunt pretty much yearly in Montana. States like Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Utah and Colorado are gonna be the ones that are gonna see tougher and tougher draws from here on out. Kinda feel sorry for folks that have to “draw” a tag to hunt good buck units and branched bulls annually in their home state. Just gonna get worse I’m afraid

Here's something I didn't anticipate with all the new rifle shooters.

All the sand bags at the public range have been blasted apart because the new shooters packing their "Modern Sporting Rifle" rest the barrel and muzzle brake directly on the sand bags.

If the range management can't get that sorted out then folks will end up having to start bringing their own bags to place on the wood front rests.

Idaho's getting harder in recent years for non-residents. They have quotas on deer and elk. They go on sale Dec 1 and they're usually sold out in days. Non-res can still apply for draw hunts if they miss out on the quotas but the odds of drawing aren't very good.

Sure are, if your on the ball you can get tags initially and returned tags. Wasn’t too many years ago, (5-6) I could drive over around thanksgiving, buy my tag and go hunt. Those days are long gone…

I've seen the effects the increase in the number of hunters here in Montana since I started hunting here in 1975.

I drew my first Goat tag back then in a unit with a 25% chance of drawing. Last year the Montana unit with the best chance of drawing a Goat tag had just a lilttle better than 4% success.

In the late '70s and '80s there were many Antelope units that did not sell all of their tags. Last year, all Montana antelope units were sold out and the units with the highest chance of drawing a tag were the units with the least public land which makes hunting access more difficult.

In the '70s and into the '80s, a Bighorn sheep hunter could apply in a limited sheep tag unit, and if unsuccessful there, just buy an Unlimited unit tag. Back then most of the sheep units just north of Yellowstone NP were unlimited units. The season for many of those units went from early September througn the end of November, and the kill quota was not filled in some of those units. A hunter could also buy an unlimited ram tag every year, and there was no 7 year wait to apply if you killed a ram. I hunted several of those unlimited units for many years and never saw another hunter, or at most only one or two. Now, an umlimited ram tag is only available as your first choice in the drawing, the harvest quota has been dropped to 2 rams per unit, seasons have been shortened in some units, other units have changed to limited draws, and the last time that I hunted in an unlimited unit, the high mountain basin that had sheep in it the day before, on opening morning, was crowded with hunters, tents, guides with hunters on horseback, and no rams.

Moose numbers in my part of Montana are way down from what they were in the '70s and '80s, I believe, not from hunting, but from the introduced wolves in Yellowstone. Many of the previously open moose units in our area are now closed, and the number of tags in the open units have been greatly reduced.

Throught Montana, I think, that the size of the Mule deer and the Elk antlers has significantly decreased from what they were 40 years ago. Disease has affected many of the mule deer herds, but just plain over hunting has reduced the number of large, mature bucks and bulls.

I agree Jud......I have said for a long time now we are our own worst enemies....bob

Agree 100% on the technology, ease of information etc. having an big impact. NM game commission has a proposed rule change to eliminate scopes on ML’s. I’m kind of on the fence about it. There’s a couple units I think it will help bring some big bulls back and that’s a good thing. It just seems a little off when a couple weeks before you have guys with bows with sliders that are dumping animals 100 yds+ like you say and in most units, you have guys dumping them at 6/700+ center fire shortly after. Sometimes it just feels like we’re loving it to death.

Most of the new “breed” of hunters don’t know what it’s like to go spend the time and $$ to find game by actually going out and doing it, they’re dropping pins etc. technology is making it too easy and too successful, double edge sword, influx in “hunters”, more successful hunters= less critters, less opportunities, less tags, which is a big problem, especially in states that have limited, predominantly draw for most/all species.

Before whiners start bitching, I’ve never used a gps or had a onyx membership. There was a time when you actually used to load your gear and go scout/find areas by yourself, which intimidated folks. I remember guys asking me, where snd how do you figure out where to hunt?? Ummmm get off your ass and go do it. My first non resident trip was 35 years ago when I was 12, dad and I used to load up with a 1970 chev and a pile of junk camp trailer and drive to ne Oregon and hunt, great times. Now you have pretty much everything at the click of a mouse. We’re gonna see a more dramatic change than we already have in the next 10 years, and probably a lot sooner.

Also noteworthy, a guy in his 30’s here at work was sittin around watching born and raised on YouTube. They showed a pic of a tagged bull. The little titty sucker zoomed in on the tag and found out what tag they purchased and was huntin the same group of units they were the following year.. watch your landmarks in your pics and videos too. 👊🏻

Jud; you make a good point about the two sides of technology.

I used to find honey holes by dropping a couple of hundred dollars on maps and airphotos followed up by hours of pre season scouting. Now a $5 app gives everyone with a cell phone the information in better detail instantly.

Lots of the old honey holes are now crawling with hunters.

Lots of the new hunters seem to be cross overs from other outdoor pursuits. They move way too fast with too little concern for concealment and being skylined.

Theres still a 1 cougar bag limit in washington, not 2. And please provide evidence of +500 and +100 yard muzzie / archery hunters. Most hunters cant shoot a scoped rifle competently at 200, let alone an open sight muzzy at over 500. And a bow over 100? Get real 99% couldnt succeed at that at a foam target, let alone a moving animal. Pure sensationalism here.

Jud,

You're nailing it. I know it causes some all sorts of handwringing, but the technology is evolving way faster than the critters.

Heck, remember when you had to find a source for topo maps and they weren't cheap, than you had to study them all winter long, scout the area on foot, talk with people familiar to the area, burn lots of gas and time to learn an area. A guy used to have to worry about getting lost in these parts. That ain't even happening anymore with OnX.

We used to spring bear hunt an area in the that the only real way to access it was snowshoeing in and taking them off when not on snow. Now tracked ATV's are covering the area in droves.

My nephew was showing me his drone the other day. My mind went to how scouting game is going to change even if laws are in place about hunting and having a drone in the air. Critters are at a big time disadvantage and hunting is just plain easier now, if you can find a place to hunt and that might be the real deal breaker in the near future?

Sorry, I’m able to buy 2 longtail tags. Before ya flip your lip, see what “hunters” are doing in states that allow scopes on muzzleloaders. Maybe GregW for example will chime in about a muzzleloader with a scope will do?? I’m sure there are more. Have shared camps with guys that shoot bucks 100 yards plus regularly with archery equipment. There has been no mention of “open sighted muskets killin at 500 yards plus… 👍

Please try not to be a total douche.

Interesting. Care to expound on the "hunter" comment insinuation?

all 50 states need to enact & enforce regs that require hunters to bring out of the field 100% of the edible parts of animal hunted, to their permanent residence for consumption ......

Far too many moneybag phux come to Alaska on a high dollar guided trip, shoot a 60-70" racked moose, leave the entire carcass with the guide and fly home with nothing but the rack, guides "donate" (there's an ambiguous term) the moose meat to the four corners market ie brown & black bears, wolves & coyotes etc ....
Far too costly & time consuming to pack out the quarters so they claim it was donated to "local natives" yup, the 4 legged ones .....

guess the furry critters gotta eat too !

Don’t be so insecure Greg, not everything is about “you”. 👍

Lmao. You brought my name up my man and I didn't understand the comment.

Your comments on this thread however, are very interesting.

I brought your name up simply because you have a high dollar muzzleloader, and you shoot long range with it. How far can you accurately hit a deer with it? Elariah or wtf thinks it’s not possible. Glad I’m interesting. 👍

WOW +P+

I've been on one scoped muzzie hunt in my life and killed a deer with it at 450 yards bang flop through the heart at 12k feet on a backpack hunt. I can shoot 3" groups at 500 yards with it but I've never spoken about it. It's pretty straight forward. It's basically a rifle and when the laws are changed it'll get a peep.

I've also got a dedicated peep muzzie for states like CO....

How's your shooting these days?

Yeah - now that's absurd ...

Not bad, as you know, I recovered my “wounded” buck, unlike the one you lost, in was it Colorado or Utah?

Just to clarify, he wasn’t a pard or a friend, professional poker player from California, hunted early archery hunts in Colorado and Utah, even stretched it to 130 yards so he said. That is a “hunter”. 👍

Thanks for that clarification.His story I'm sure has impressed a lot of people. Just not in a good way...

Been outta the archery game for quite a while. With today’s setups, arrows, expandables etc maybe it’s possible?? Dunno? Hopefully not a whole buncha folks are doin it.

It has probably stretched by the same percentage of guys that are now taking super long rifle shots at game.

500 yards with a rifle is now 1000

50 yard shot with a bow is now 100.

I've lost one buck in my life and that was it. Offhand at 70 yards. Think I hit him back. I looked for two days. I punched my tag and left and took two days to get outta the hole. I could have killed his running partner later which was a bigger buck but I didn't.

I'm not gonna do this with you Jud.

👍 copy that. Kinda wondering why you respond to my posts after the “have a good one Jud “. It’ll be better this way.

It’s a double edge sword. It sucks and won’t get any better. We need more hunters for a voice. Sometimes that voice doesn’t help our cause. It doesn’t help when every niche group is against the other. Or when one group’s “ethics” doesn’t align with another. I’ve made a living hunting and I’m probably the most uninformed hunter there is. I don’t watch hunting shows or belong to any organizations, I don’t go to shows. I get on here so I guess there’s that. I don’t put much thought in the draws. I don’t keep up with legislation. I really don’t give a sheet anymore. The other day some friends in the industry told me to listen to a podcast (which can be argued is hurting hunting too) that Matt rinella did on Blood origins. They set it up as he hit the nail on the head of what’s wrong with hunting today. I thought I was gonna agree with every word he said. I didn’t. He came on and started in on social media and how it’s the downfall of hunting. Some merit to that. But then it turned into a whine fest how he couldn’t get tags and only hunters who hunt for his reasons should be allowed to hunt and if you posted a pic of an animal you were basically a POS. Now don’t get me wrong I don’t give a piss about some flat billed gym rat who kills a forky or 200” or any hot attention whore that does it for likes. But the libertarian in me says they have the same right as anyone to hunt. Who am I to say just because you didn’t grow up hunting, you can’t now? I dunno. I’m just rambling. If you love to hunt you can make it a priority. If you love elk meat you might buy a cow tag. If you like killing sheet go whack some coyotes. I get a kick out of the guys that but $80k pickups, $5000 in rifles, $5000 in optics $30k in side by sides and wear matching designer camo then say they can’t afford a landowner tag or a hunt. Priorities. One thing that I never thought of as a negative was OnX. I guess just because where we live can be so checkerboard and land access issues are big. I thought it’s probably the greatest invention since lazer rangefinders. It just keeps us out of trouble. Like I said it sucks but there ain’t nothing we can do about it. It is what it is and we either roll with the punches or take up golf.

This Idaho buck supposedly ended up getting killed at over 100 yards with a bow. I am in no position to say it was right or wrong, nor do I know what kind of equipment/practice the guy had.


I do know a few folks with 80 yard pins on their bows that are as confident at that range as I am at 400 with a rifle. Right or wrong I am not sure how they could legislate distance restrictions when it comes to hunting. If they could, what then? How far you'd be allowed to cast a lure? I don't have those answers.

I would like to hear Saxton Pope and Art Young's thoughts on 40 yard shots with bows, as they sport hunted way before compounds were designed. 40 yard compound bow shots these days are completely accepted by about anyone, from an ethics standpoint.

As regs change within a State, turning once otc tags for the entire State for archery into draw units...This change in Oregon has/will push archery hunters into West side hunting units that are still, otc.

Whenever the guys with bow tackle start showing up. The rifle units begin to explode with their friends and family, who don’t hunt archery, showing up with rifles to hunt the intel they got from a archery Pard.

🦫

Jud, do you not remember the year we hunted together you lost two bears and elk (or maybe vice versa), three critters total, earlier in the season before our hunt? And then there was a rodeo on your coues.

I knew it was a matter of time Clint. It was 1 bear, and a muzzleloader bull. Bears are like coyotes, make great maggot food. Elk sucks, but muzzleloaders are tough for doin damage to big critters, especially when they’re in country where you can’t see 5’ in front of your face, which you and most folks will never know…

Perhaps you should follow your advice on your last text to me, “ya Greg and I shouldn’t of said anything “..

PS, guys out west don’t get the opportunity to kill bucks trying to get into a high fence operation. 👍 that’s some shootin right there!

Jud,
Maybe clear your last post up a smidge. It reads like it’s okay to wound a bear or elk because they aren’t your kind of table eats.

I’m sure you meant something else, right?

🦫

Jud,

Did Greg take you hunting for a week? Take a week out of his time, set up camp, provide all transportation, provide all food and cooking, "guide" daily, take you into his home, etc etc, all free of charge, out of the kindness of his heart? Hell of a way to treat someone who did that. Call them out by name in this thread, completely unprompted. No good deed goes unpunished. Its so weird to me. I can't even grasp it.

You won’t find anyone that loves elk meat more than me mark. Dunno how you interpreted it that way? Bears are a predator, no more no less. I think of bears like the guys in Texas feel about pigs and auadad. I hope that’s alright

Clint, read and re read this post. I didn’t mention a name, a certain party thinks/thought I was targeting him, if said party feels they resemble that remark, than so be it, there’s nothing I can do about that. I can tell after the falling out, it’s getting more hostile, perhaps folks should block me?

Read the “Elk Sucks” part after bear maggot feast.

Thought you meant you don’t like elk meat either.

My bad. Carry on.

🦫

No name? And completely unprompted.

My bad. We live on elk meat, with the exception of a few ribeyes and New York steaks through out the year!! 👊🏻

Jesus Christ Clint, you can’t be this dense?? Remember the group texts about how accurate his musket was??? Read the reply a couple above it where dude said i was full of shiit about ling range muzzleloaders. I was hoping, and he did post and gave the info that people do in fact shoot long range with with muskets. Thanks for clearing that up and setting the record straight Greg!!

Here ya go Clint 👊🏻

Greg host Jud and Clint for a week of hunting. Goes wayyyyyy above and beyond. Greg doesnt even have a tag, only Jud and Clint. Everything was great. Everyone enjoyed each other's company, we all left more than happy. Another hunt was planned for the following year. Again, this wasn't a hunt swap or anything like that. Nothing in return. Jud couldn't make the second hunt due to COVID travel restrictions from his home state, Washington. Everyone was bummed. Then there is a "falling out". I don't even know the reason. Apparently social media (don't kid yourself, the campfire is social media) trumps actual real life experiences. Strange times we live in. Very strange.

Sure way to bond a friendship or bust it is to spend a week long hunt with someone. I have cemented some lifelong friendships with guys that I hunted with at a mutual friend’s invite and on the other hand hunted with “friends” who showed true colors on a hunt and whom I seldom see anymore. Works both ways…

Thats what one would think.

I can't imagine anyone getting tired of me in just a week.

Ha. I bet.

The list of guys I'd spend a week in camp with, twice, is very very short. Jud was on that list. Good dude to hang around with. Not the personality you'd expect from just reading internet post. But there is a "falling out" on the Campfire. There is nothing beneath the surface that I know of. Only what has transpired on the pages at the Fire. Sad.

Same here. I've known me for a long time and I really like myself.

Not in washington. 1 cougar per year. Youre talking out your azz. You can get 2 in one CALENDAR year, yes, because our hunting license year is april 1st through marck 31st. So you could fill your 2021 lion tag in say february of 2022, then fill your 2022 lion tag in april or september of 2022, but its 2 different license years. If you did that youd have to wait until april 2023 to fill a 23 tag, and if you did that you couldbt hunt lion again until april 24. Its one per license year statewide.

You clearly dont understand the regs. Have you killed a cougar in washington since 96? I have, but ive never had the option of buying a second cougar tag. Go ahead and get on wdfw website and try to buy a "second cougar tag". Seriously, post up a pic of your 2 longtail tags with the same license year on them.
Pretty please. Id love to see it.

Duirng a Utah DWR meeting about what to do to help the mule deer in the NE part of the state, an old ranch hand/biologist had an idea. He said limit hunters to 2WD pickups and open sighted lever action rifles!

Jesus Christ sally, stew on it for a week and still I can buy 2 cougar tags in a year..

Now as far as “talking out my ass”, get back to flipping your lip of rifles and muskets and far guys “aren’t “ shootin them accurately. Make sure you don’t go full pelosi, again. 👊🏻

Haha that would probably help a bit!! 😂😂

Let me chim in here regarding Oregon. It's much harder to draw tags now. First in NE Oregon every unit is a draw including bow for deer and elk. Decent rifle units can take several years to draw. As a senior 65 I may not draw a cow tag again until I am almost 70. Now you can hunt blacktail and Rosie's over the counter but you also need to buy a Wherehouser permit if you can to hunt alot of the lands on NW Oregon.

As along time bowhunter it kills me to hear about 100 yard shots. On a elk if they take a step when the arrow is flight you go from lungs to butt. So things are changing dramatically.

Let me chim in here regarding Oregon. It's much harder to draw tags now. First in NE Oregon every unit is a draw including bow for deer and elk. Decent rifle units can take several years to draw. As a senior 65 I may not draw a cow tag again until I am almost 70. Now you can hunt blacktail and Rosie's over the counter but you also need to buy a Wherhouser permit if you can to hunt alot of the lands on NW Oregon. As along time bowhunter it kills me to hear about 100 yard shots. On a elk if they take a step when the arrow is flight you go from lungs to butt. So things are changing dramatically.

Worried a bit about new shooters here. For the first time in over 30 years we canceled a pending hunter education class limited to 15 seats. Only had 3 sign up. Until now we typically turn away 2 or 3 hoping to secure walk in seats.

Our state went to an online course for 16 yrs and up. We still offer traditional class or a hybrid online with a field day for those below 16 yrs old. But those below 16 yrs old can hunt with a licensed adult and not need hunter education as long as they are with the adult.

Our state governor slapped covid classroom restrictions on hunter education instructors as to the distancing, mask wearing for everyone and if any student caught covid the liability fell back on to the volunteer instructors. That pissed off a LOT of instructors, because before the state covered instructor liability as long as the instructors ran a safe course. I teach H.E. but after that letter we received from the state, I wasn't going to risk losing my house to pay for a student's medical bills if they got covid sick from attending one of our classes.

We have some online courses, but kids < 18 yrs must still attend a hands-on field day session and pass our Or state test. Adults can take an online course and be issued a card without ever touching a firearm. That surfaced when some adults discovered they needed a card regardless of age in a few states. Once one reaches 18 in Oregon, no card is required.

The preference in this community is to do our 14-16 hr hands on sit down class and our live fire range session. Our test, however, was recently dumbed down. Average score in our last class was 98%.

When virus mandates were on, we had about an 18-month window with no in person classes in Oregon. Presently, we have no virus restrictions in effect with life essentially back to normal.