Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Boone & Crockett Monkey Business!!!!

All,

I used to do business with an out of state taxidermist. Over the years friendship and bonds were formed and I always sent him work when I was successful on my hunts, I refered friends to him also. However, over the last few years I noticed his taxidermy business was taking a dive, when I would drop by on my way to the hunting grounds I noticed less and less hunters were dropping their game off at his place. He was changing too, more and more bitter about life in general, I noticed alot of his old hunting friends were not coming around or going hunting with him.



Back in 1993 I killed a Calif. black bear that made the B&C all time book. My taxidermist friend had hunted black bears all his life and never came close to killing a bear that large he said at that time. He made it quite obvious he was envious I had killed a B&C bear during my third year of hunting them when he had been hunting them all his life. The taxidermist had hunted mostly Montana for spring black bears for about 20yrs and I accompanied him the following spring (1994) in which he bagged a small 150lb black bear. You could not beat the hide for fur quality, it had a beautiful hide. Its been my understanding Montana has never had a B&C black bear entered in the all time book. (21" min)



In 2000, I bagged a nice 325lb black bear here in California. The bear had an exceptional size head. I did some rough measuring, it looked as if it might be an awards book bear (20") and turned it over to the taxidermist for skull prepping and a rug job. I did not receive the rug until Dec 2001 and it looked horrible! I knew right then the taxidermist had "subbed" it out as his work is always topnotch. I did not receive my skull either. I sent it back immediately and asked for my skull and a refund on the taxidermy work. Also earlier in 2001 my friend submitted a large California bear for skull and rug work also. After a furstrating 6mos of letters and phone calls to various state agencies I finally received what was supposed to be my bear skull and the refund. The skull was 18 15/16", the teeth were falling out from the skull being overboiled. It took a year and 8mos for this taxidermist to cough up a bear skull which I had trusted him with and I have a feeling it is not my skull! And I basically paid him to ruin a fine trophy!



Now we had to get my friends black bear skull and rug back which I had submitted to the taxidermist in the fall of 2001. Again phone calls and letters were sent to various state agencies. In April of this year 2003, my friend finally received his rug and skull. I looked at his skull and it looks like it has been boiled as numerous teeth are falling out also. The taxidermist claims it took a long time to process his skull because he had it done by the dermasted beetle method. Yea right, a year and a half to prep a skull? My friend has made an appt to have it officially scored real soon.



Now for the clincher. In late 2002, this taxidermist submitted and entered not one but two all-time record book black bears in the B&C record book. I know for certain one of the bears was legitimate because a friend of mine had accompanied him on the trip to S.E. Alaska where he bagged the monster. The other bear he entered he listed as having killed back in '99 in S.E. Alaska. Why did he wait to enter this bear? During my dilemma with this taxidermist I had warned B&C that this taxidermist might be entering black bears taken by other hunters under his name. They replied it would be difficult to prove otherwise.



So it came as no suprise today when I opened this quarter's B&C magazine Fair Chase magazine and read another two black bears have been accepted by B&C which were submitted by this taxidermist. All in all that makes 4 B&C All-Time black bears submitted and accepted by this taxidermist since 2002. It gets even worse, one of the bears recently entered is listed as taken in Montana in the year of 1994, the very year I hunted with him in Montana when he took the small 150lb black bear (I even have a picture of him packing out the small bear's hide and head) So how does one manage to take a B&C All -Time record book black bear in Montana and take 3 All -time black bears in S.E. Alaska in the last 4yrs? And to think that this taxidermist has the nerve to enter a bear that he claims he took while I was hunting with him back in '94!



I am asking the Alaskans on this board for their opinion as 3 of these bears came from SE Alaska. What are the odds of a self guided non-resident taking 3 All -time black bears in S.E. Alaska in 3 spring seasons (99', 01' and 02') while hunting without a boat. Am I barking up the wrong tree? I am seriously thinking about yanking my record book black bear and canceling my membership in this organization. Its fraught with people of questionable character!



A disappointed MtnHtr! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Boy,that made me upset just reading it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

We have a local taxidermist that does something simmilar,though he sells them.He "looses" your bear hide or rack of horns and then
they turn up for sale by him.Uh huh.

My father took a 7'2 black bear in to him to be tanned.The hide he got back was 6'2 and the hair had slipped.Doesn't take a genius
to know it wasn't the same hide.Same taxidermist also "lost" two beatiful blacktail capes,which ended up on heads that he sold
in his shop.A friend of ours took a big blackie in with a big white patch on his chest to be mounted-even had photos with the bear
when he killed it with the white patch.Came back mounted-and no white patch!

Needless to say,this taxidermist is just about out of business now.I certainly hope the taxidermist who screwed you (and others) over
has the same thing happen to him.

WB.

Mnt Hunter,

Sounds fishy to me. But I find it hard to blame B&C. It seems like you enjoy belonging to that orignization, so why let this incident change that?

I've been on three S.E. Alaska black bear hunts in the past few years. On the first one we got skunked. It was too late in the Fall for a boat based hunt, which is what I was doing.

The second time I hooked up with Big Stick and I scored a 7" bear with a 20-11/16th inch skull. That was also boat based, but in the Spring.

The third time (last May) I was hunting with two friends, one who was a non-resident. He ended up taking the only bear, a 7'-2" bear with 20 4/16th inch skull. Again, very much a boat based hunt in the Spring.

I'd say there's a chance to score three 21+ inch bears on certain road systems here in S.E. Alaska, but they are slim. If he shot them up here, then ADF&G should have records of the bears.

I understand fully what you must be going through. I can feel this situaton from both sides actually. As you may know I own the largest Skull and skeleton cleaning business in the USA for hunting trophies. I have had a debate on two occasions with hunters who have accused me of swapping out their skulls with somebody else or with my own.



Speaking strictly for myself, I have no desire to enter a skull in any book, and have even less desire to own a trophy killed by somebody else. The issue with these two fellows was the guide who told them the beqr they killed would be a B&C bear. However when it arrived it was still frozen and not trimmed or boned out at all. Both guys hunted with different people and did not know each other. Yet both had been told they killed a B&C bear.



There was no question that the bears they killed were large but you cannot possibly know if it would make the book until its cleaned off of all meat. Both hunters exclaimed I was a cheat and a lair and would pay for such a huge deception. One even called his outfitter to have him prove that it was a Booner skull that was killed. He sent me photo's and said it was a big bear that should go B&C. I replied to him asking what the green score was and how it was measured? He said they used a tape to measure the girth of the skull. When I asked him what the girth of the skull with all, the flesh on it had to do with the B&C score he replied they had trimmed all meat off and removed the Jaw too. Hmmm curious situation, I recieved a skull with all the meat on and the jaw completely untouched. I forwarded this letter and my concern to the owner(hunter) and never heard another word about this. I don't know how I recieved the skull I did but it was sent by the Taxidermist he used to mount his bear. It was not send directly by him!



The other fellow was just rude and had no idea what he was talking about. I think he was also very embarrased in front of all his buddies for what he had told them and what he actually ended up with. We use seriel numbered tags identical to the tags the State of ALaska uses for Brown bears to tag each and every skull that comes into my shop. In this way there is no chance of mixing up skulls. Believe me with 500 plus a year it could happen without this method. 90% of the bears we recieve are between 17.5" and 19" in score. There are always a bunch from 19" to 20" and a few dozen that will go bigger each year. I have over 100 skulls in the freezer right now over 60 are from SE Alaska. of those a dozen will be right around 21".



If I used the system of entering skulls in the all time Book that this taxidermist is alleged to be doing I could have well over 100 Booners in the book today! I have processed the two biggest black bears ever killed in modern times. Both over 23". Neither will be entered in B&C because the owners of the bears don't like the organisation. We have 3 lions which will score 16", we have done the #2 polar bear and several 30" plus brown bears. I have one here right now as a matter of fact. Brown bears are a bit more difficult to swap and tinker with as they come with plactic seals that are boil proof and seriel numberd. These big brown bears always come boned out clean and nearly spotless as well. The outfitters usually do a great job and are anxious to know the score of these exceptional bears.



I suppose the bottom line is to get the work to a guy you trust and who does enough volume that everything he see's is "just another trophy". He may exclaim it's a beauty but when a Taxidermist sees so much work come though the shop after a while it's just "another trophy" to him.



Futrther more Trust is critical and when in doubt use seriel numbered tags which must be cut off to remove. As far as a guy shooting 21" plus bears in SE Alaska. I have seen it happen several times with guided hunters and on POW I suppose its possible as well. POW is at times greatly over hunted because of the ease and the roads. It's without a doubt the most easy to hunt location in the state of Alaska for bears by non-residents. It would be a very lucky guy who hunted the island and only shot 21" bears on each trip. Probably could happen easier then getting hit by lightning, but still dog-gone lucky!



Now a final thought. Shooting a B&C bear is like rolling 4 dice and coming up with all sixes. You can hunt a lifetime and shoot the most giant of all bears but that does not mean the bear will posses a 21" skull. The size of the skull is 100% luck. There is no skill in shooting a 21" bear, and no way to determine this before hand. I know, as well as every bear hunting guide that has ever taken a bear that skull size has nothing to do with body mass.



Genitics are the key to your "Luck". Hunt in an area which has produced big bear skulls and your more likely to find one. Arizona and Pennsylvania have bears with big skulls and well as the islands of SE Alaska. However the state of Wa. has only 13 all time and I know personally two of those were from Alaska not Washington( another fake entry by the same guy). SE Alaska produces that many 21" a year! As stated in the original post Montana has none. I don't know that to be true but it may be.



I have seen bears square an honest 8 foot that have a sub 20" skull. I have seen bears killed which were weighed on official scales which made the 460 pound mark and square 7 foot. That bear had a sub 19" skull. Yet we have also taken a run of the mill 6'-6" bear with a 21"+ skull in SE Alaska! Hunting bears is not like horned or antlered game. There is nothing to judge before you shoot but body size. That is unfortunately no indication of skull mass!



I wish you well with your situation, and think you have presented it well without the names of the people involved. Better to sort this through 100% before you light the fire under him by telling the exact details.

Sounds like A pure shafting you got there MNT HUNTER. I arrowed A big bear in MASS. last year and after the butcher gave me the skull, "which never left my sight'' I contacted BEAR HUNTER MAG. which led me to J.J HACK. I removed all the meat and placed A heavy ziptie whith my name and address on it before shipping it to JJ.I measured it with calipers and got 20 6/16.green.JJ mailed me that he had A slew of skulls and that it may take A few months. I recieved my skull in under 3months whith my tag and his tag still attached.It offically scores 20 5/16. MASS. has only 2 P&Y BEARS listed ,so I wasn't taking any chances of loosing ''MY HEAD''.YES ,YES ,YES, Indede there is A lot of sleazy ,dishonest,crooks out there whom will do anything to get there name in the books. I trusted my skull whith JJ and I 'm glad I did. It's sad that A man ''IF THATS WHAT HE CALLS HIMSELF'' would sacrifice his friendship & business for A little false fame. Good luck resolving this mess,and be glad you know who you are caus your taxadermist is totally lost.

There is always the chance that this taxidermist did indeed harvest those 3 bears listed as taken in S.E Alaska. With all due respect he is an excellent hunter and crack shot. But he would also have to be one lucky SOB too. I feel his ego may have gotten the best of him which is sad. As for the Montana bear I know he did not take a "book" bear because I was with him the entire trip. 9 yrs later and the taxidermist decides to enter it? After entering 3 other bears killed much later? And the fact that he was evasive in returning our skulls does not help either. There is other evidence which I cannot reveal due to the nature of this type of thing. I will not reveal his name or origin, I just wanted other's views on this subject as there are some very knowledgable bear hunters on this forum. Thank you, MtnHtr

There is a list available to the public that will show the name of every hunter and the skull size of the bear that was killed by him from the state of Alaska. All black bears are required to be sealed. It would be possible to get the list and see what the size of the bears green scored were right from the them. It would also show if he infact ever killed one there. You need to know the unit he hunted in and the year to get the details. I know this because when I worked there the F&G filled out a form for every single bear presented to them for the seal. This information is also available by requesting the outfitter information. That list will show the bears killed each year by the outfitter and their hide size and skull size.

It's possible but quite difficult to jerk things around in ALaska. Their record keeping for non-residents is pretty tight, and available to the public on request!

JJ,
Sent you a P.M.

Thanks,
MtnHtr

MtnHunter, ironically I was just looking at that issue of Fair Chase over the weekend and I noticed that bear from Montana. My first thought was, wow, no chit a Montana bear went 21"!?! Now I see by your post that it was chit. I'm not quite sure why you don't bother to post the sleaze ball's name. It's not like it's not already there in black and white in the magazine. One other question I do have though. Didn't you guys have to take your bears in to the Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks office to be checked in? I know you have to do that now, plus you have to include where it was killed. There should be some kind of record at the FWP office to back your claims. If there is a paper trail in both Montana and POW then that Ian dude's goose is cooked, if you pursue it.

Hence the reason I hold little faith in any record book. I KNOW of way too many false, poached, illegal entries in all of the books. WAY too many "hunters" base everything, including their reputations on "making the book" by what ever means they can. My trophies hang on my walls and the memories fill my mind. I don't need to point to my name in a book and say, "I am somebody!" Flinch

Flinch well said! For that reason, I will never enter any animal into a record book. Too many "hunters" are willing to do what ever it takes to see their name in "The Book". It would be nice if "The Book" only had the animal's score, location, and date of kill. Credit to the animal and a record of size... without the name of the "hunter". Don't get me wrong, I like to know the score of my animals as much as the next guy, but don't need a pat on the back or a newspaper article every time I bag a nice one. I figure that if I have to hunt to impress someone else, I'm out there for all the wrong reasons.

280_ACKLEY

Those are my feelings too, guys. I even have to be careful showing a nice trophy at the Taxidermist shop. You show a nice trophy, someone wants to know where it was taken, and the next thing you know that someone has offered your lease owner more money than you can afford to pay. It sounds like a streach but it happens alot.

I had a guy call me pretending to be a writter for an outdoor magazine asking where my son had killed his turkey with the 11 & 1/4 inch beard. We had entered his turkey in a local long beard contest which required a photo. The guy said he wanted to include the photo in an article he was working on and had to know what ranch the bird was killed on. He avoided answering any of my questions (which magazines have you been publishied in?) and was not much interested in any details of the hunt, just wanted to know where the bird had been killed. He did not even bother to ask for permission to use the photo. And he acted suprised that I would not tell him.

I have resorted to the old fisherman's lie. When asked: where did you catch all those fish? I answer; in the side of the mouth.

I know I'm ranting, but it seams to me if there's money to be made, sport goes out the window and lying and cheating take over. I belonged to a gun club once where they had money riding on their trap shoots. Not much either, you might make $500.00 if you had a really great winning season. I never saw such cheating, sandbagging, and grown men poutting. I quit shooting trap and went over to the skeet field. All that was at stake there was a tiny, inexpensive trophy to the top shooter and top squad at the end of the season. Those guys had way more fun and there wasn't any cheating or hurt feelings.

Bass fishing is in the same boat, so to speak. The local bass club fisherman thinks he might get rich and famous if he fishes hard, and cheats when he thinks he won't get caught doing it. I had a fishing buddy I enjoyed fishing with until he got seriously involved in a bass club and started fishing the tournaments. I'd go fishing with him when he was "practicing" but would not enter any tournaments with him. He hounded me so hard to "tournament" with him that I finally found another fishing partner. I kept telling him I was not interested in turning fishing into another job. He just didn't get it.

I don't understand that thinking at all. If you need money that bad, take a second job. Why ruin a great sport for yourself and those around you?

My grandfather told me that fishing and hunting shows the true character of a man. Of corse he was right. Connect a little money to it in any way and it brings out the worst in many people.

But I suspose we have to take the bad with the good. If there were no money to be made from fishing or hunting we would not have all the new gadgets and gear we love to use and there would not be much motavation for land owners to manage for hunting and fishing.

I think that if I killed a trophy buck/bull or whatever that I would enter it in the B & C book if it qualified. I can't account for what other people do, but I can account for myself. Just becaause something is in the book doesn't mean that it was taken unethically or illegally and I don't think we should cast doubt on what others have done without the facts.

Rolly, even the Fish and Game figure that 60% of all entered animals were taken by some form of illegal means. Some of the means used are hunting after hours, the day before the season opens or closes, trespassing, illegal illumination, high powered weapons during primative seasons, hunting other states and stating that the animal was killed somewhere else. And the largest statistic is shooting critters on their winter range, freezing them and saying they were killed the following year. I know of several guys in the books that poached their entries. They don't have the sense or skill to kill giant bucks and bulls every year. Nobody is that lucky or good, unless they have endless amounts of money and sponsors (chuck Adams). Flinch

Well, Flinch, if our own G & F Depts. say that the book entries are 60% from poached animals, I guess it only goes to proove that if we lose our hunting and/or fishing rights, we have only ourselves to blame. That number is extremely distressing to me. It goes to show why my father-in-law, a minister, gave up hunting. He said, he was becoming ashamed to identify himself as a hunter because of so many unethical and unsportsmanlike activities going on. Maybe he was right.

I made a boo boo. I meant 40% were unethical and 60% were legal kills. Sorry about that, but it is still VERY distressing. Oh, and 85% are killed on private ranches, so that might as well not count either, since I am not able to afford such "hunts". Oh well. Flinch