Home Forums Birds & Dogs Upland Game Hunter ethics

I believe it is unethical to shot a bird off of a limb; its no different than ground sluicing. My hunting partner blasted a ruff grouse off a fir tree yesterday and I told him it was definitely UNCOOL. His defence was that he had shot three times trying to get the dumb bird to fly so he figured he had enough invested. I strongly disagreed. Are my shorts bunched up or should I let this go?

You should let it go. Do you flush a turkey before you shoot it? What's the difference? How about deer? When a deer is under your stand, do you shout or throw rocks to get it moving before you take a shot? So much of this "ethics" business is arbitrary and inconsistent - you're killing it either way. <P>IMO, grouse hunting is more like turkey hunting than pheasant hunting, but I'm sure that is a result of the way the birds behave in my neck of the woods. I shoot pheasants and ducks on the wing because that's where I find them. I shoot grouse on the ground or out of trees because that's where I find them. They rarely flush around here, and when they do, you almost never get a shot. Your mileage may vary.<P>Here's my opinion about the matter. Much of this controversy is due to confusion between "ethical" and "sporting." In my mind, "ethical" means ensuring a quick, clean kill, recovering the game and not letting anything go to waste. By that definition, shooting at flying birds is actually less ethical, because the chance of wounding and losing it are higher than if you ground-swat a grouse in the head with a 410. You're not going to lose that bird, and you'll not ruin any of the breast, either, which you can't always say for a wingshot bird. OTOH, "sporting" pertains to the rules of the hunt, like only shooting birds in flight, for instance. It's usually for the sake of making it challenging, and is personal, arbitrary and often region-specific. In many ways, the two oppose each other. -al

EllieMae, your point was well put. Thanks for explaining your view. I believe it has a lot of merit.<P>I had already "let it go" but was curious what other members of the board thought.

I know you've put it to rest, but, I just wanted to add to the "Bunched Up" responses.<P>Not a personal attack, just a comparison of methods.<P>I've shot a whole bunch of blues and ruffeds and never shotgunned a one. 90%, or more, have been with a .22 handgun. The others with a centerfire rifle. All legal weapons.<P>I got a chuckle out of your post because my initial perception was one of your partner not waiting for a flight shot with a pistol or rifle. If I tried to recreate all my misses with that little Ruger Standard Model even I would think I was exagerating. It got to be a vendetta thing with me. No Mercy.<P>I will admit though that, when I started my young son on them, I gave him a .410 for the job. Once he got the sitting still part down pat I did encourage him to take the flight shots. But I never criticised him for taking the easy shot.<P>2D

twodogs - I can understand the vendetta point of view given my many unsuccessful days hunting grouse back east. The sneaky little birds would always put a tree between you and him and zig zag the whole way. But out west the grouse aren't overly cautious. Shooting sitting birds with .22s is whole different story and I don't see any problem with that technique. But with a 12 ga. I believe you should give the birds something of a sporting chance and make them fly. <P>In my view, I would compare this to waiting for the ducks to land in your decoys and then blasting them on the water. [img]images/icons/crazy.gif" border="0[/img]

Why is it okay to shoot a sitting bird with a .22, but not with a 12ga? My choice is a full-choked 410 and clean head shots with no collateral damage, although I shoot my share with a .22 pistol, too. And why do we give some animals a "sporting chance" at escape, while others we sneak up on or wait in ambush and just shoot them, unaware of our presence? This is the arbitrary nature of the issue that I mentioned earlier.<P>Hunting for me really has nothing to do with "sport". I'm out there just killing my breakfast, feeding myself the proper way, and having some fun. I'm not trying to prove something. It's not much different than picking a mushroom or blackberry to me (except that mushrooms and berries are usually easier). When hunting in Rome, however, I would do it as they do, so to speak. I'm planning a grouse/woodcock trip to Maine with an old buddy from there, and believe me, I'll have on my best tweed and will be shooting them on the wing like a gentleman, just to be sociable. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <P>If you're originally from the east, I understand your perception. I'm originally from Kansas, where it's actually required by law to shoot birds only in flight, and my hunting buds back there would cringe at the thought of ground-swatting a bird of any kind. <BR>Except for a turkey, of course. Now we're back to arbitrary again. -al

Ellie Mae, you may be legally correct, but your hunting ethics, that is morals are pitiful. If all you are after is dead game, then trap them and kill them with a hatchet. Or go to the corner supermarket, it is cheaper and easier with no ethical baggage.<P>Grouse on a limb are an exception to many of the normal criteria applied to hunting situations, but that does not mean that ground swatting, shooting birds on a wire, covey shooting, night hunting, or any of the myriad other ways to collect dead tissue is an ethical use of a natural resource. <P>Sportsman ethics are a product of years of hunters, both modern and ancient, deciding what is fair chase and what is not. Killing something solely because you can by any means is not fair chase, whether the something is big game or birds. Hell, why not use claymores and electric eye triggers, game is dead, you get to eat it, and it died quickly? I repeat, pitiful.

Tea, anyone?

No thank you, but coffee would be fine. I think I will sit and look out the window at the beautiful day unfolding and be thankful for the wonderful world I live in.

IIFID - Every discussion on this board goes down the toilet the minute you chime in with your insulting attitude. -al

Maybe so, Ellie Mae, but at least I understand that ethics and sport hunting are not in opposition, but go hand in hand to make hunting an acceptable ethical modern sport with widely followed rules of correct behavior that MOST of us use when we hunt and kill game. Clean kills and not wasting meat are only part of the equation. The end does not dictate the means.

If you'd care to kindly step down off your high horse first, I'd be interested to hear from someone with such strong convictions about right and wrong, exactly WHY "grouse on a limb are an exception to many of the normal criteria..." <P>And while you're contributing constructively to the discussion, explain how shooting birds on wires, covey shooting, night hunting and claymores are related to anything I or anybody else have mentioned. The question at hand, at least in my mind, was WHY are the rules the way they are, and what is it exactly that makes one method right and another wrong? Anybody who can't articulate that is just blindly reciting scripture. -al

EllieMae,<P>I have been hunting ruffed grouse for over 40 years in the east and out here it considered unsportsmanlike to kill a grouse on the ground or out of a tree. That is not to say that it doesn't happen and that is not to say that I haven't done it. The first grouse I ever killed at the age of 13 was shot on the ground with a 410. Different ideas apply in different areas, that's all and I don't believe in telling someone what they're doing is wrong because they might feel what I'm doing is wrong.<P>Good Hunting,<BR>George

[QUOTE]Originally posted by George Foster:<BR>Different ideas apply in different areas, that's all and I don't believe in telling someone what they're doing is wrong because they might feel what I'm doing is wrong.<P>I couldn't agree more. Growing up in Kansas, cutting my hunting teeth on pheasants and quail, I learned that birds are shot in flight, period. I never questioned it. I guess I never had any reason to question it, because every game bird I saw was flying. I suppose the few exceptions were the occasional pheasant crossing the road, but I never considered shooting one, and not just because they disappear the second you step out of the truck. Besides, there is a safety (and legal) issue there that has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. <P>Then I moved to the mountains and saw that most grouse out here are actually not shot on the wing. And besides, on a stump or in a tree is where you usually find them. I accepted it because I couldn't see any reason not to. That's the way it's done here, mostly. I've shot them on the wing, as have my hunting buddies, but those times are the exception rather than the rule. They're not as good eating, I might add.<P>We have to be careful about placing our own methods and personal ethics above those of somebody else. That is where the laws against hound hunting or baiting come from. (Never mind that hunting bears with hounds is exactly the same thing as hunting pheasants with pointers.) Some people shoot running deer with rifles in drives, the drivers can be either other people or dogs, while others stalk them with a stick and string. One isn't more ethical than the other. While I do think that the ethic about clean kills and no waste are universal, "sporting" is in the eye of the beholder. -al

Please let me share a story to help lighten up this discussion: I was lucky enough to hunt Africa this year and decided I should do some wing shooting. The PH set me up at a water hole and I had fantastic shooting at doves and sand grouse. It was all pass shooting, on the wing. The PH comes back and picks me up and he decides to check one of his water tanks. I see some francolin milling around and ask if it is OK to take one, he says no problem.<P>Now the story gets good. I walk towards the birds and they walk away, I walk faster and so do they. Stomping the ground and hollaring causes no flight. Finally I break into a run, the birds scatter but still none fly. I'm in a flat out run through thorny bushes and taking hits, my sporting nature is ebbing. I sluice one of the SOBs on the ground. <P>Of course the PH is laughing the whole time. When I get back to him he has tears on his cheeks. I apologize for sluicing the bird and he says, "No problem, they never fly, we always shoot them on the ground." <P>I have a photo of me holding the bird and an entertaining story to go with it. I guess it was worth it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Hey Boise. Show us a pic of those African "grouse" if you can. <P>I saw a thread on another board where a couple Canadian fellas hunt grouse with a bow (obviously on the ground). -al

Ellie Mae - They call them sand grouse but they look like a sand colored dove to me. They fly similarly to a dove but in a straight line making for easier shooting. I was shooting Turtle Doves - ain't much romance in me when it come to wing shooting. [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img] <P>I don't have a system that allows access outside the fire wall and haven't been successful in posting the images on outside services. Any suggestions on how I can post the images?

Boise:<P>Are you sure you are not talking about guineas, they run unless absolutely forced to fly? I have shot a good many francolin and they flush pretty well, at least where I was. A doctor and his son, both marathon runners, took off after some guineas one day with their shotguns, the guineas had about a 100 yard lead and maintained it for the next 5 miles or so when the two Docs decided it was beer time. LOL<P>Most people find sand grouse to be pretty tricky shooting, they flit back and forth and have a relatively broad wing area that when spread for landing makes them almost stop in the air, I would rank them at least as tough as average condition doves, particularly since you are often shooting them at dusk or darker.

Ellie,<P>Cant agree with much of what you rationalize and justify. It's a fair chase issue. And shooting with a shotgun at upland birds is typically noted as wing shooting. It sounds to me like you are a harvester, not a hunter, and a justifier to boot.<P>History and hunting practices over time have unfortunly placed Grouse out here in the west in the Un-Sporting, Non-wing shooting, hardly even an upland bird category!<P>If we had never allowed unsuccessful deer and elk hunters to shoot them with centerfire and .22s while deer and elk hunting, just to let em touch off a cap and save thier season, this would never even rate as a debatable issue! <P>There is nothing that you can conjur up that justifies shooting a Grouse out of a tree, or sluicing Grouse off of a road with a shotgun.(illegal here in Wa. if discharging a firearm within 50feet of the roadbed) <P>Nor is any skill equated to hunting involved what so ever. Your rational about wing shooting being less ethical than head shooting, can only be remotely justified for those that do not practice thier shooting, commit to understanding range and choke limits as well as thier own skill base. Not to mention lacking the natural and intimate respect for the game you are eating. <P>Calling head shots with a .410 F/C ethical, whoo, thats a stretch. I bet you dont get much beyond 25 yards before you pull the trigger, cuz you understand the limits of your gun, and the miserable, non lethal/ (ethical) patterns it produces, right?<P>But I am sure it takes years of practice, honing shotgunning skills, and the intimate awareness of your game when you are, say 12 yards distant, affording you a "Decent Just Take the Head Off Meat Shot", hmmm, full choke .410? pattern must be pretty tight, hope you don't miss dinner... <P>IMHO big game hunting and the shooting of grouse concurrent is a total screw-job. It fosters this kind killing mentality. Knowing the ranges of centerfire rifle bullets and .22s that miss the birds during big game seasons is ok and safe practice for the rest of us, no dangers there. The anti's just luv that kinda press. Not to mention some jerk, 200yds away from me, that has'nt seen a deer in a week, shooting thier 7mm Mag thru the trees just to kill something.<P> It really hacked me off when i was ready to pull the trigger on a 6x6 Whitetail buck a season or two back. Bang goes the jerk's 7mm, the buck jumped three feet in the air, then departed and bolts off to the hinterlands. And no the idiot missed the Blue Grouse and was pissed to boot...<P>Great Game Managment Practices they are indeed...<P>Scott

Thank you Scott, I thought I was the lone stranger on this thread for a while there. As for that 6x6 whitetail, ummm, where did you say you were hunting? LOL