Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Single Shots Savage 219 Accuracy?

Is there anyone with reasonably extensive experience with the little old and somewhat crude Savage 219's or 220's with 219 barrels on them?

I had one in .22 Hornet years ago. Not a great trigger, but reasonably accurate. A very basic, bare bones utility rifle, but of decent quality.

They sure are sleek and pretty rifles. You should send that picture to Henry accompanied by a one word letter: "hint..."

I had one in .30-30 for a number of years. It carried a 4x scope. I could usually get 5 shots of factory Winchester 150 grain ammo under 2 inches at 100 yards off a bench. Occasionally, I'd get groups of 1-1/4", but they were not the usual result. In any event, the rifle shot well inside the "minute of deer" requirement for which the rifle was used and I did kill a nice 7 point whitetail with it. I wish I hadn't sold it, but something else whispered in my ear and it went down the road to partially fund the whisperer. They are solid, very basic rifles which were a good deal more attractive than the various H&R and clones of those H&Rs that were a more modern version.

All the steel of the pictured .30-30 219 received Black Nitride treatment, making for an all-weather, lightweight, quick-handling stalking rifle.

working with one in 30-30 right now seems to be EXTREMELY sensitive to grip pressure and rest point showing 4-6 inch vertical stringing especially with factory jacketed ammunition. Light loads using 165gr cast bullets will shoot 1.5 MOA if and when I am SUPER consistent with hold.
Hoping to find/work up a cast load with heavier 190gr for whitetails.

15 grains of SR4759 (unfortunately discontinued) has been working well for me with cast bullets ranging from 150 grains to 173 grains:



If I had some 190 grain cast bullets, I’d certainly try 15 of 4759 with them, too, if it can be found. I stocked up before it disappeared.

15 to 16 grains of 4227 gives similar results in one of my Marlin 30-30's and is still available. Might give it a try if you don't have any 4759.
Good Luck,
Rick

15 to 16 grains of 4227 gives similar results in one of my Marlin 30-30's and is still available. Might give it a try if you don't have any 4759.
Good Luck,
Rick

I like what you did with it.

I've been thinking about re-chambering one of the 30-30 barrels I have to 30-40 to step it up a little. Being able to use spitzer bullets in these is a real plus, also. I'll be glassing the buttstock to prevent the usual 219/220 cracking and repair the existing crack.

I’ve sometimes thought about re-chambering a 219 .22 Hornet barrel to .218 Bee, partly because I already load for it in my 14” Contender pistol. However, I would not be inclined to re-chamber a 219 .30-30 to .30-40, because it’s more than would be enjoyable to shoot in such a light rifle. When a step up is desired, I go to this heavier TCR83 in .30-06:

The TC is nice for sure, but light is what I'm after, and recoil isn't a big issue.

I still shoot a pre-64 Mdl 70 375 H&H with a steel butt plate. I don't think the 30-40 would kick any harder than my 16ga 220 or surely my 12ga 220.

I wouldn't mind having a TC, but they're not all that available and are expensive. I DO like set triggers!

But, are they truly enjoyable to shoot, or is it too much like work?

It won't be a recreational shooter. It will be a LW hunting rifle that forces me to get a bit closer. That's how I have fun with a HP rifle.

The expense of popping primers, burning powder, and bruising bullets has taken away a lot of fun out of poking holes in targets.

Since the Henry is designed to handle 12ga, .45/70, and high-pressure centerfires like .308 and .243, I doubt they’re going to be slimming it down. The receiver is a bit squarish for my taste, but the stocks are actually quite slim and trim. Hard for me to not like a nicely-finished, quality American-made gun with very nice walnut for under $500 street price. Another one will be landing here shortly. I did go to their suggestion page and tell them they should d&t all the shotguns, not just the slug and turkey models, and fit them with swivel studs, but I ain’t holding my breath.

I have a 219 in the hornet. It is old enough that it has the smaller bore. Still shoot 224 bullets but reduced the charge a bit and went to small pistol primers and it shoots fine.

Don't get me wrong, I like a svelte break open (kiplauf) single shot rifle as much as the next guy, but there's an inherent design fault which can't help but detract a little from accuracy. Since the barrel itself opens and closes and by necessity must have "wiggle room" tolerances for it to work (slight as those tolerances may be), upon discharge the barrel jumps around a tiny bit on its pivot axis and within the receiver frame (and still whipping like any barrel on any gun, too) which doesn't do us any favors one or two hundred yards downrange on the paper. High end break-open rifles conquer that by employing tighter hand-fitted tolerances and more sophisticated bank vault-like locking systems - something not found in cheap American guns based on single shot shotgun actions. Add to that the "clatter" of the hammer/striker and you have a recipe that denies benchrest accuracy from these things. Falling block designs ameliorate a lot of that, but still have to deal with hammer/striker vibrations, but at least the barrels are firmly anchored and barrel whip is the only concern (hence heavy barrels on target models).

For a guy to take a position on this type rifle, he has to define his accuracy standard and think about its intended purpose. For me, as I start to age out, acceptable hunting accuracy doesn't cut it much any more as I actually hunt less and less each year. But, I'm bench shooting more and more in its stead.

Thinking about this some more: Imagine, theoretically, that with a perfect harmoniously balanced load with the perfect bullet, in a barrel that could (again theoretically mind you) put 3 or 5 into a tiny cluster at 100 yards - if that barrel wiggled just .001" while the bullet is traveling down the bore that equates to almost 3/8" deviation at that distance. (3600 inches in 100 yards x .001" = .360") Given that said barrel could just as easily wiggle in the opposite direction during the second shot as it did for the first shot, right there is almost 3/4" extreme spread in the grouping built into the gun, and that's just with a thousandth of an inch lateral play. Factor in that a hardware store quality rifle surely has more than a thousandth of play/wiggle/tolerance maybe you can see where I was coming from in the above post.

Of course real world results are often mitigated by a myriad of factors, some good some bad, but it's something to ponder.

I just picked up a H & R 22honet with full stock, classy looking little gun, will try to get some bench time before I send it to him, need to scope, no iron sights, thats ok with me. btw, its the tightest closing one I have every had.

If all of the things mentioned above actually did contribute to inherent inaccuracy of a Savage 219, as described, then this cast bullet target must have been shot by someone possessing marksmanship skills rivaling those of Davy Crockett:



But, as I certainly cannot routinely put one rifle ball atop another dead center in a bullseye at 100 yards, standing, perhaps the Savage 219 is not much of a handicap after all. Theoretically, that is.

As impressively average as that group is, and as neat as the rifle is, it wouldn't win any CBA or ASSRA matches, theoretically, but would certainly work to prove my theory.

Your theory suggested that a Savage 219 should not be up to producing such an average group. Though obviously incapable of winning any CBA or ASSRA matches, such an average group certainly does forecast a successful end to a stalking hunt.

Since, despite my decrepitude I’m still a hunter at heart (and in practice so far as I’m able), my focus with rifles is mostly about their use for that, and more accuracy (or precision) beyond that is wasted. Little groups make me smile like everyone else, but no more than the pleasure I get from the heft of a nice field gun while out and about.

My Henry .308, before the thugs at UPS futzed it up on the way back from the recall, made tidy little clusters with some hand-me-down loads built for something else. By the time it came back the second time with a new barrel I had acquired another .308, so let it go to a new home. Have big plans for the .357 in the pipe, which will come home when turkey season us over and the garden in. Won’t be any matches, but my club has a bunch of plates hanging at 100 yards that are gonna take a beating……..

No, I didn't. Obviously you didn't read what I said, which was the inherent source of potential inaccuracies in cheap break open single shots. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I've had a fair number of break action rifles and shotguns, and they just are what they are. I never go into a deal on one expecting to come home with a tack driving magic laser.

Occasionally one will fall into the better than expected, or utterly hopeless categories, but for the most part, they generally fall into the 2-4MOA shooter ballpark, in my experience.

They used to be great little cheap woods beaters in the days of them floating around used at double or very low triple digit prices, but those times are long past now. Heck, I remember paying under a bill for a brand new 22LR Handi on sale at Walmart in the early 2000s. Those days are never coming back.

Good reading comprehension is important for everyone.

Hey Exchipy
Is that folding sight an original. I have 2 one with the elevator rear sight and the other with a folding sight like yours. Do you know, if perhaps, at the end of the run of 219s they switched to the folding rear?
Anybody else know???

I solved the rear sight issue with a scope on my 22 Hornet 219 and have a rear peep sight on a 30-30; I gave the other 30-30 to Owen.

I've seen 219 with the standard ramp elevator and with the Dockendorff sight.

The scruffy Hornet:


My 340 in 222 with a Dockendorff rear sight.


Vintage 30-30 barrel with a peep sight: It shoots great.

It’s not original. It’s a Marble Arms #69 folding leaf sight. I believe even the later versions of the Savage 219 were never offered with a folding rear sight.

Follow-up to that earlier pictured performance:

The five shot group just prior to this one was even tighter, but a couple inches out of the black at 8 o’clock. A scope adjustment was made to get it centered. Prior to this range session, I had already switched from using my own cast RCBS 30-150-FNGC bullets and started using the Montana Bullet Company version of the same bullet, but this time in Winchester cases instead of the Remington cases I’d been using for many years. I understand that the internal volume of Winchester brass tends to be slightly greater than Remington brass. It’s looking like that made the difference.

Hi
Thanks for the feedback. I believe you are correct at least as far as my folding leaf unit. I had a closer look after seeing your post and can see some rub marks on the barrel where the elevator was. Pretty sure the mystery is solved. Folding sight = not original.

Is this at 100yd?

Yessir

Well. I like the 219s. I have 2 -219s 22h and 30-30, a 220 and a 221 combination with a 22h and 20 gauge.

Seriously thinking about a nitried finish on one and making it into a 30-30AI.

Anyway, nice groups.

Always kinda wanted a 219 but never saw the right one yet

You shouldn’t be too fussy. The thing is, only the quality of the bore (which need not be perfect) and the tightness of the breeching should be the most influential deciding factors. Most everything else can be fairly easily fixed. Numrich Gun Parts Corporation is your friend, as is Jack First Gun Parts.

Starting out kinda rough, some replacement parts, DIY stock refinishing, and Black Nitride treatment to the steel by H&M Metal Processing resulted in this lightweight, weatherproof stalking rifle:

I had a 219 in 30-30 and rechambered it to 30/40 Krag. It worked well and shot into two inches at 100 with Winchester factory Silvertips. I sold it and never got a replacement. GD

I have several 219's and they are very accurate. especially the .22 Hornet. They are the best built single shots in there price range ever made. I also have had H&R's and New England Arms and they shoot good but aren't built as well. The only thing that I do not like on the Savage's is the trigger pull. I would like to own a 25/20 or a 32/20, but they are out of my price range. None of the rifles mentioned here are as nice as the Ruger No.1. I recently bought a New England Arms in the .22 mag. It shoots fantastic.

My hornet is a 2 inch rifle at a hundred

I'm curious on the nitride treatment. One of the selling pints is that it will add "hundreds of feet per second" to you rifle. Did you notice any difference?

While Black Nitride treatment certainly improves the bore surface, someone is feeding you crock of baloney with that claim. Black Nitride has much to recommend it, without resorting to such foolishness. I’m sold on it:

Only the slide was treated.

Barreled frame, cylinder, crane, side plate and thumb piece were treated.

Barrel, receiver, hammer, breechblock, lever, trigger and all screws were treated. I couldn’t tell for sure whether the 5 hits on the pictured target were 4 and 1 or 3 and 2 @ 50 yards.

I also thought it was a crock... The place that you use for the nitride treatment has the "increased velocity" claim as a benefit on their website.

However, I will say that it sure looked like they did an excellent job on your items.

I have a few projects that I'm considering having Nitrided now.

On the Stevens, did you add a longer LOP butt stock to it? It looks longer than normal to me.

I do believe a slight increase in velocity may well be a side benefit of the improved bore surface resulting from the Black Nitride treatment. But, “hundreds of feet per second?” Though I didn’t actually check, I really don’t think my .30-30 cast bullet load, doing 1700 fps before treatment, was suddenly doing 1900+ fps after treatment. I suppose there could be some extremely high intensity cartridges for which a couple hundred fps would represent but a small percentage increase.

The pictured stock is what came on my Stevens Favorite Model of 1915 .22LR.

waiting to get my 219/30-30 back from gunsmith.....occasional random misfires and occasional random "flyer". After lotsa fussin and cussin we decided that while the bore is still good over the years the hinge pin has developed the slightest amount of wear and the headspace has "stretched." Going to dedicate certain pieces of brass to this rifle only and neck size only and see if that cures it. Other solution would be drill and sleeve hinge pin and doing that suddenly i have doubled the cost of my rifle but not the value.
The nature of some older used firearms I suppose.

A few years ago, Larry Potterfield of Midway USA made a short instructional video in which he demonstrated the proper fitting of a stainless steel shim (using epoxy, as I recall) to the barrel lug of a break action shotgun where it contacts the hinge pin, as an effective means to tighten the action to its original snug closing fit. Seems like this could be just the thing to inexpensively correct a “stretched” 219.

I've used a shim of an aluminum soda can to take up looseness on a break action and it works. Not as permanent as the stainless steel shim mentioned above but works

I had the opportunity to watch Larry Potterfield’s video again this evening. More details:

The loose breech-barrel gap, before repair, measured .006”.

He used green Loctite, not epoxy, to hold the stainless shim in place, and carefully trimmed the overhanging shim stock even with the sides of the barrel lug.

The initial result was that the action wouldn’t quite close. This was remedied by sooting the rear of the barrel to disclose the high spots when breech closure was attempted. Those shiny high spots were lightly filed. Re-sooting and re-filing were repeated until the breech could first easily close, exhibiting even barrel-breech contact all the way ‘round, with no gap whatsoever - just like a Holland & Holland.

I’m a fan of nitride as well, though mine have all been factory finished. Wish more companies used it, especially since most have cut back on SS offerings. Nitride over SS is the best, as on S&W pistols and some Knight MLs.

Very handsome, as well as practical.

👍

Nitrocarburization is a thermochemical diffusion process. Nitrogen, carbon, and a very small number of oxygen atoms diffuse into the surface of steel. Black Nitride is a proprietary variation on that process offered by H&M Metal Processing of Akron, OH, which incorporates some desirable additional qualities. A similar treatment process, under the name Melonite, is offered by Burlington Engineering of Orange, CA, and is used by some gun manufacturers on their barrels.