Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Rds on pistol? Yea or nay

Grocks,

Irons don't sweep Open Division Tournies,because they are SECRETLY "better" and "faster". Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!...................

In a 2016 article, Paul Howe observed that no one has yet passed his pistol standards using a slide mounted red dot sight, and in a recent podcast, Mike Seeklander (another trainer, USPSA Grand Master and experienced Open division competitor) advised listeners that the red dot sight was not an advantage inside of 10 yards, with some disadvantage associated with finding the dot upon presentation of the pistol.

Those observations track with our study results. Adding a slide mounted red dot sight typically doubles the cost of the pistol, providing at best a 10% gain for those at already high skill levels. For those not already at the USPSA B class, IDPA Expert, 80% on FBI qualification test or higher skill level, particularly those that do not dry fire regularly and do not practice getting the gun from ready (or holster) to target under time pressure, adding a red dot sight to the pistol in an attempt to buy skill with equipment will likely not produce the desired result.

If you are on your sights at presentation, then you are on the DOT if you can't find the DOT then you aren't on your sights

Some thoughts for you monkeys before I roll out this morning:

Don't fall for the trap about speed and irons vs speed and dot sights as it applies to close distance. I fell in this trap with my first couple forays into optics on defensive handguns and it's a fallacy. The site does not make you slower. You are making you slower because you're not learning. You're reverting.

When you figure out the correct presentation you will find that the dot being somewhere else is because you are not gripping and presenting your pistol correctly. This is something that you're not seeing with irons and it's the cause of a lot of your "What the fugks" when you head downrange and look at targets. If your grip is pushing left, the dot will tell you. If your grip is pushing things right, the dot will tell you. If you're heeling, the dot will tell you. If you're sending rounds south of the intended target because you're pushing the gun at the apex of your draw, the dot will tell you. The dot will tell you by not being there when you hoped/thought it would.

To save range time and money (or do it at the range if you want) put a holster on and set your timer with a par time that suits you. If you're a one shot, 2 seconds, from the 7yd line guy with irons, then set your par time to 2 seconds. Gun should come straight up and out while your support hand moves toward the center of your chest. When they meet, slide the gun toward the target. Don't bring your head down. Don't lean forward. Don't "blade" toward the target. Just stand there, draw with both hands in motion, and push the pistol toward your target while keeping the top of the slide parallel to the deck. Trigger should be breaking with the dot on what you want to hit as the par time beeps.

Do this 10,000 times and reduce your par times accordingly.

Once you get your old bullschit out of the way (this will happen because not seeing the dot is going to fix you) you are ready for some range time. While on the range use an iron equipped handgun that you've proven effective with. Run some drills with it, run some drills with the dot. If your dot is still slower you're doing something wrong. This is due to your not listening to Flave's previous writings. Listen to Flave.

If things are where you want them to be, reserve some ammo for 25 and 50 yard shooting. You may find that your par time at the 5yd line somehow became the same at the 25yd line. Your brain will whisper something like "holy fugk, Flave really is God." While that may be true the reality is that the dot is simply allowing you to do what you've always been capable of doing. It's doing this by showing you what's wrong with you. It's showing you by disappearing until you get it right.

If your optic equipped handgun came with irons that co-witness, great. But ignore the irons. Tape over them if you have to. If your optic equipped pistol did not come equipped with co-witness irons, leave it that way while you're learning. I find some of the worst advice you can give a guy is using the front or rear sight to assist with finding the dot. You're just keeping yourself in the same old rut. They are there in case the optic fails. Nothing more. Ignore them until you've mastered the dot. Which is really mastering your grip and presentation from the holster.

The issues of fogging, dirt, etc. have (in my experience) been moot. I live in what most would consider a mildly humid region and while there is a thin film of fog when you exit an A/C'd building or vehicle, it would in no way impair your shooting of a person that was in need of shooting. On most quality optics, you won't even know it's there.

Last but not least, when you read or hear about a person that claims competition shooting has no relevance to real world application of force, you are reading or hearing the words of a fugking idiot. While some types of gear, teaching points, and tactics may not be transferable to on-duty use of firearms, the vast majority of it is. When you reach regional, state, and national level champion type shooting, you are in the F1 world of handgunning. If those people make a separate classification for dot sights vs. irons, you can rest afugkingssured that they have determined the dot sight gives an advantage that irons cannot compete with. Shooters being comparable of course.

You're welcome,
Flave

Flave,

I recently picked up a new optics ready carry gun, but I've used red dots on hand guns in the past.

Which one do you recommend?

Been dabbling a little. I vote yea.

I think anyone that states RDS are a great improvement over irons with respect to speed and accuracy at short ranges are overstating their benefits. There are studies that she even the best shooters only benefit a little from RDSs, and poor shooters tend to do somewhat worse.

This is a study that's been bandied about for several years on many handgun shooting websites that suggests the limited benefits of a red dot for most people, while pointing out that lasers have a much bigger bigger benefit than RDSs for most shooters.

https://blog.krtraining.com/red-dot-study-key-points/

No dispute at longer ranges the RDS is better for accuracy.

Grocks,

Irons don't sweep Open Division Tournies,because they are SECRETLY "better" and "faster". Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!...................

If you've used them before you should have an idea of what features you want. If that's a typo I'm afraid I don't have a real solid answer for you as I'm not real dogmatic about them.

I can say that the Triiicon SRO is probably the easiest one to start with and you'd be hard pressed to find something more amazing. It has great coatings, a perfect auto on/off that self adjusts brightness, and a huge window that makes them very easy to learn with. They are very durable in my experience but they're not recommended for duty use.

You can't go wrong with any of the better quality ones. The upper tier Sigs, Holosuns, Trijicons, AIMPOINTS, and Leupold DeltaPoints that I've been around all work very well.

Be cognizant of the fact that not all optics readily mount to all types of pistols. Especially when things are marked Sig or Glock.

The comparisons in the study are proper comparisons. That's a value.


It's consistent with this Stick's statement, nothwithstanding Stick's suggestion that Open Division shooters are using the production guns and slide mounted carry optics we're discussing here. They aren't sweeping Open with the types of guns and optics were talking here. There are different divisions for thoses. Shooters in Open are typically using custom compensated race guns with frame mounted optics. The study compares it properly - a particular shooter's scores in Production Division versues that same shooters scores in Carry Optics Division.

"The high hit factors for USPSA classifiers in Carry Optics, relative to those in Production division, are typically a few percent (less than 10%) higher, indicating USPSA’s own assessment of the value gained by adding a red dot sight. By comparison, high hit factors for Open division, where the red dot sights are mounted to the frame, can be as much as 20% higher than the Production scores."

A neophyte shooter who starts out with irons, never learns how to shoot well with them, who switches to a carry optic, and through time and training becomes very proficient shooting with a carry optic may conclude may conclude that carry optics give a shooter a huge advantage. But it's a false dilema. The proper comparison is one where a shooter has reached top proificiency with both to determined the advantage the carry optic provides. The study does that, and the advantage is smaller than most people assume.

That's the value of the study: proper and consistent comparisons.

Those with more experience and skill with firearms were able to use the laser and red dot more effectively, with those at the instructor level having the most success with the red dot sight and slightly more difficulty using the laser (likely because it requires a target focus).

Deflave.

Yes, that was a typeo, I have NO experience with red dot on pistols.

Thank you for your advice. I'll check out the Triiicon.

If a skilled iron sight shooter sees less than 10% advantage to adding a dot, then for those shooters the dot is 90+% pointless; plus you've shoved a piece of plastic between those irons you use so well, to catch glare/dirt/dust/moisture and snow.

The exception would be the competition shooter who is striving for any point/time advantage he can get. To them, 5-7% is a win or a loss- a huge deal. I shot with old Bullseye shooters in my youth and dabbled in IPSC when it was a thing. so I really get that.

Exactly, if your presentation sucks, adding an RDS isn't going to help, and may very well make things worse. There is no substitute for practice.

The article states that between 6-7 years ago somebody gathered 118 people of varying competence with irons sights and had them shoot targets at known distances to ascertain a baseline of speed/accuracy.

They then (with no training) had them shoot a comparable pistol equipped with a red dot and noted that none of them improved.

You're Welcome,
Flave

So you don't agree practice is necessary. Just add a carry optic and all bad habits are gone. Got it.