Had an extra fastfire 3 I've never opened so I ordered an adapter to mount it to my M&P 40. Haven't got to try it yet, probably go shoot it Monday & set the optic at 20 yds. Those who use them how do you like it?

Yea

Just shot it in backyard at maybe 10-12 yds and it shot a hair left before I adjusted it. Never realized how much I shake til I put red dot on.

Yep .

Sighting in and giving a first run to a Holosun w/ ACSS reticle in the morning to see what that’s about

Nice! I need to get a light, but not wanting to spend a fortune

Yea. here’s an option for the bottom, even if ya go RDS on top or not. light and laser combo $100-130. have had it on this XD40 for a year and a half now, plenty of rounds through, no issues. green laser dot, 800 lumen light, or both at same time

Is that a yea or a nay?

Yea! Though, not on a semi…..use a 3 moa Fastfire on my hunting revolver zero’s @ 100! Took a little while to get comfortable with it…..but ve ry happy! memtb

I’m becoming a fan of red dots. Especially for fast shooting. I have two of those Burris fast fires - I think same as yours. They are great on shotguns for turkey and competition. I don’t like this model on self defense guns because you have to manually turn them on.

They are invaluable but there is a learning curve to using them if you want to use your handgun to potential.

If you're a casual shooter they will give you a false sense of expediency when you use them to zero, shoot a target (slowly), or plink empty cans. That all goes to schit the first time you try to kill something that isn't going to stand still for very long. Or you don't get your draw and presentation to where it needs to be for the red dot to be effective.

Most decent transition courses are about 16 hours. 16 minutes on the back forty usually don't cut it in my experience.

In my experience if you draw and your eyes are infine with the sight, then with the same draw and presentazione you will see the dot

Expanding on what deflave and jwp475 said…Red dots and holosights make the act of target acquisition easier, without the emphasis on actual handgun sight alignment. With that being said, it will not cure bad habits or substitute for repetitions of draw or muscle memory. Lasers will sometimes make you think you had waaaay too much coffee, or you might need a doctor visit for the twitching! I guess it would depend on the sight/optic and how high it rides in relation to normal pistol sights line, for the getting used to it part. In my opinion this is why I like co-witnessing a bottom mount laser to my pistol sights. Draw, present…both are lined up on target in unison. Maybe not better, but no real getting used to period like a top dot might need. I have both and I’m way quicker with shots on target with the pistols with lasers, but when slow firing both, I tend to be more accurate with the holosight setups. I suppose that might be why the lasers are on my carry rigs, and the holosights are on my hunting rigs. I do plan on putting a Holosun green dot on a Springfield XDS Mod 2 OSP soon though, so I’ll see how that works for me.

Get one. But you'll need to practice with it a lot. Like said above, there is a big learning curve. I've used Burris FF IIs and IIIs and Trijicon RMRs. My Newest Glock G17 Gen 5 wears a Trijicon Dual Illuminated RMR. I started off hating it but love it now and like it better than any red dot RMR's I've tried. I am still not has fast with this gun as a I am with my G19 Gen 4 with XS DXTs sights, but I am more accurate with it. On a defensive handgun, up close, I am not sure it matters much is you have a red dot or good iron sights. At longer distances, a dot sight has the accuracy advantage.

1st thing I figured out is I couldn't find the dot. Muzzle to high. Without traditional irons I had no reference. Eye box is small on this thing. Works great on my 870, but as soon as I shoulder it the dot is there. I'll definitely have to put some time in to see if it's for me. Did I mention I'm a terrible shot, maybe I'll just carry the 870 everywhere. I think for distance shooting I'll like it once I get used to it.

I have one on a 9mm carbine and for it, there was practically no learning curve required. Shoulder the gun and it’s there…

I also put one on my Smith 41 and it’s not nearly as intuitive. It’s really nice but you have to be very consistent with presentation and your grip. If you can’t bring up the pistol and instantly see the dot, you need some more practice.

Since a handgun is a short range (20yds max), low-power, defensive weapon, an optical sight is a waste of money to me.

But, this is America and we don't all have to think alike.

Great for old eyes. With a decent rest a 6" plate at 50 yards is easy with my 4" 686 & Burris FF3. Easily rock chuck accurate at 75 yards.

If I hadn't had the new unopened extra fastfire laying around I wouldn't have fooled with it. Just had to try it.

Not to mention you’re a fugking moron.

I guess that may vary a bit, depending upon the handgun being used! memtb

I agree with Flave. There is a learning curve. Once you get it, it’s way better then open sights. Especially if your eyesight isn’t what it once was. I have a Holosun 507k on my P365XL amd live it. There ate some pretty good videos on YouTube on learning to use reflex sights on hamdguns.

Ron

Have you measured "way better"?

It is ok to enjoy the latest fad. Just don't confuse a video game with reality.

You, once again, have eliminated yourself from serious conversation with your 20 yard max b.s. Your limitations exist in many areas.

Shooting a handgun in a consistently competent fashion takes time and effort, a rds will improve the potential of the pistol for a competent shooter.


mike r

Competitive shooting is dominate by RDS, irons aren't competitive against RDS

Playing games is fun. Allowing playtime to spill over to defensive handgun use is questionable.
People shot very well long before the fad of RDS.

Yep and they shoot better and faster with them. They spill over onto difensive handguns because they are faster and more accurate. That is why I use them as well as many LEO my life is worth the best sighting system. YMMV

This is the definition of “way better” for me…50 yards, off the back porch top rail with my .500 S&W mag with a first generation Bushnell Holosight on it. No way I get this grouping at this distance with my old eyes and iron sights! By any definition, I shoot way better with the Holosight, than the revolver sights. They’re not for everyone, but they work better for many shooters. Speaking of fads….seems people said that about plastic pistols after Glock started making them, and I think that kinda stuck. I think RDS and Holosight type optics will also be around a long time as well.

I just picked this one up yesterday and got around to shooting it today.

It's still early but I like it a lot. I don't seem to have any issues trying to find the dot, and the ability to hit targets at range is impressive.

I posted on campfire about trading a taurus for a ruger. Check my thread & give me your thoughts

So, have you moved on to real guns yet or are you still stuck in your Kel-Tec fanboy fad?

The same posers made the same claim about optics on service rifles.

Stop pretending you can shoot.

I have the same thoughts as Massad Ayoob:

Thoughts on Carry Optics

9/12/2021

A growing trend in defensive handguns, from police service pistols to armed citizens’ concealed carry guns, is “carry optics”: compact red dot sights. I have three such in-house right now, all 9mms: a Langdon Beretta 92 LTT with Trijicon SRO, a Wilson Combat Glock 19 with Trijicon RMR, and an LTT Springfield Armory Hellcat with Holosun 407K.

Good news: You can see more target area around the red dot aiming index, better allowing you to see what’s happening at the target. Many shooters find the red dot improves accuracy. You can focus on the target and see the aiming dot simultaneously.

Bad news: Gotta keep that glass clean and fog-free. Anything battery-dependent is a concern. There is added bulk: appendix carry is popular with these guns because the broad surface of the abdomen gives more room to discreetly conceal the shape of a now “taller” pistol.

Carry optics on a handgun have a significant learning curve. Unlike a long gun, there’s no anchor point at the shoulder nor cheek index on the comb of a stock to help align eye with the red dot and the target.

I’m kinda like a cat chasing a laser beam: I have trouble catching the red dot. Thus, while I appreciate the advantages of a red dot, I’m still not as fast with it as I am with the iron sights to which I’ve been so long habituated.

Readers, give me some input. Tell me what you think of the concept, and let me know how much time you have working with them, and what type.

https://www.backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/thoughts-on-carry-optics/

----------------------

RDSs require a lot of shooting to develope a consistent presentation that allows you to catch the dot immediately. If you think you have a good presentation using iron sights, an RDS will quickly show you that it may not be as good as you think. An RDS will amplify a less than optimal presentation. In fact, you don't even need to shoot to practice this. You can develope the skill without pulling the trigger. But quickly reacquiring the dot after the first shot needs to be developed, too, which will require shooting.

The fogging issue is something a lot of people don't consider. Get out of an air conditioned car you've been in for awhile on a hot, humid day and you will immediately find your RDS lens occluded with fog. And there isn't a product out there that is truly effective at stopping it. Some people say getting a fogged lens is an avoidable problem. But in an emergency, I suspect it's not wise to tell your assailant to hold off until your RDS warms up a bit. Learning how to shoot with an occluded (or non-functioning) RDS is wise. Water on the emitter can also screw up the dot, even if the lens is basically clean.

I'm a bit ambivalent about RDSs on defensive handguns. They have advantages and shortcomings. Increased accuracy at longer ranges isn't even worth debating, RDSs simply are better. But I'm neither an operator nor a cop. I don't plan on getting into long running gun battles with anyone at long ranges. At very short ranges, I suspect the type of sights matters a lot less. Whatever you choose, you better shoot it a lot. There is no substitute for practice. A guy with an RDS on his gun whop doesn't practice is at a serious disadvantage to a guy with irons who does, regardless of range.

An RDS on a hunting handgun makes a lot of sense. Where one is taking their time to make the first shot count.

Couple of things I find with red dots.
If they're on a weapon that truly co-witnesses with open sites they can help teach/learn proper alignment in usage of the open sights. So long as the Red Dot is properly sighted in.

Also the red dots seem to be much easier to shoot both eyes open for people with eye dominance issues.

I wish this were an optic ready model where sights would be visible, but it's not. I think I'll like it with some practice

You sure about that?

Maybe. You messing with my mind Deflave. Quit it dude! 😎

Here is an issue that hasn't been discussed, that is actually a minor issue, if you use a dual illuminated model RMR.

Red dot RDSs have a red coating on the lens that filters out red light, buit green light will come through. It also allows for the red dot to be reflected on the glass so the shooter can seer it. Light coming through the glass has a green hue.

RDSs with a green dot have a green coating on the front lens that filters out green light, but red and amber light will come through. Light coming through that glass has a reddish hue.

If you want back up iron sights that co witness with the RDSs dot, and you still want to be able to see the glow of the tritium in the front sight through the RDS glass, then the colors of the dots on the RDS and the front sight need to be different. On my G17 with a green dot RMR, the front sight tritium green glow is completely filtered out buy the green coating on the front of the RMR. In low light, I only see the front sight tritium as I bring my pistol up, but once it goes in front of the RMR lens, that green glow is filtered out and I pick up the green dot of the RMR. I never even thought about this when I went with the dual illuminated RMR with a green dot and thought it might be a disadvantage. But I came to appreciate not being distracted in low light situations by seeing two green dots.

So it you want to see the glow of the tritium in the front sight through your RDS window, pick a color that is opposite of the color of the coating on the RDS lens. If you have a green coating, go with an amber front sight. If your have a red coating, go with a green front sight.

It's too bright in this pic to see that the front tritium glow is filtered out, but it is. Completely. In the pitch dark, I can scarcely see the glow of the front sight through my RMR lens.

Nice looking setup

.
Setup for Hill People bag carry.
.

Great points 10Glocks. I consider Mas Ayoob and John Farnam to be two of the best sources out there for self defense/shooting info.

Am I reading you right that it might be easier to say if you have a green front sight, go with the green dot? Or if you have the green dot, go with a green front sight?

If you have a green tritium dot on the front sight, and an RDS with a green dot, you will not be able to see the light from the green tritium front sight through the RDS lens. If you have green tritium dot on the front sight, and an RDS with a red dot, you will be able to see the light from the green tritium front sight through the RDS lens.

If you want to see the light from the front sight through the RDS lens, then the two can't be the same color or the RDS lens will filter out the light from the front sight. A green dot RDS will filter out the green front sight light. So if you want to see the front sight light through the RDS lens, you have to go with an amber front sight.

If you want to see the front sight light through the lens of a red dot RDS, then you can use amber or a green front sight.

Look at the color of the coating on the front of the RDS lens. Whever color it is, that's the color light hat gets filtered out. So you have to use a different color not to get filtered out.

I'm not sure this is problem, but it is a phenomenon not many people give thought to. I didn't. When I looked through my green dot sight at my front sight in the dark, no light from the green tritium was making it through the lense of my sight.

Interesting but I've never been able to see any of my front sights through the tinted lenses. When I say see them I mean they don't glow so the last one I had had a plain black Dawson front, I tried red FO's and Green FO's, they just didn't pop for me.

That left me back to working on the real problem, indexing from the draw. I got it worked out pretty well then had to shoot WHO and was lost as a goose. There needs to be some sort of way to line things up as you pick up the pistol with your peripheral vision as you do irons. The big red circle that gives you a hint of where you're at might be the ticket. But the most useful tip I got was drop the dot into the rear sight, it's almost always high. Funny that I and seems everyone else has the dot just out of the top of the window. That's how it was on my 686, my Glocks, my Ruger MK4 and my Buckmark.

That is exactly what I experienced at 1st, muzzle to high. I even swapped out batteries before I figured it out.

This is a Ruger Max 9 with a Romeo 0
This is sited in at about 10 yd. It has a green fiber optic tube for the front site and the dot in the Romeo just disappears in the front site basically when held correctly to iron sight. But then gives the ability to be held a little high low whatever and know where your bullets going

Well got paid today from my dump job, was able to get my hi point out of layaway. Well I still had a little scratch left over so splurged and got a Keior Tactical RMR Red Dot Sight for $36 bucks. Deflave I promise you I will work my tail off to be super proficient with this set up.

Massad Ayboob continues to amaze.

LOL

I see baby seal meat in your future.

Some thoughts for you monkeys before I roll out this morning:

Don't fall for the trap about speed and irons vs speed and dot sights as it applies to close distance. I fell in this trap with my first couple forays into optics on defensive handguns and it's a fallacy. The site does not make you slower. You are making you slower because you're not learning. You're reverting.

When you figure out the correct presentation you will find that the dot being somewhere else is because you are not gripping and presenting your pistol correctly. This is something that you're not seeing with irons and it's the cause of a lot of your "What the fugks" when you head downrange and look at targets. If your grip is pushing left, the dot will tell you. If your grip is pushing things right, the dot will tell you. If you're heeling, the dot will tell you. If you're sending rounds south of the intended target because you're pushing the gun at the apex of your draw, the dot will tell you. The dot will tell you by not being there when you hoped/thought it would.

To save range time and money (or do it at the range if you want) put a holster on and set your timer with a par time that suits you. If you're a one shot, 2 seconds, from the 7yd line guy with irons, then set your par time to 2 seconds. Gun should come straight up and out while your support hand moves toward the center of your chest. When they meet, slide the gun toward the target. Don't bring your head down. Don't lean forward. Don't "blade" toward the target. Just stand there, draw with both hands in motion, and push the pistol toward your target while keeping the top of the slide parallel to the deck. Trigger should be breaking with the dot on what you want to hit as the par time beeps.

Do this 10,000 times and reduce your par times accordingly.

Once you get your old bullschit out of the way (this will happen because not seeing the dot is going to fix you) you are ready for some range time. While on the range use an iron equipped handgun that you've proven effective with. Run some drills with it, run some drills with the dot. If your dot is still slower you're doing something wrong. This is due to your not listening to Flave's previous writings. Listen to Flave.

If things are where you want them to be, reserve some ammo for 25 and 50 yard shooting. You may find that your par time at the 5yd line somehow became the same at the 25yd line. Your brain will whisper something like "holy fugk, Flave really is God." While that may be true the reality is that the dot is simply allowing you to do what you've always been capable of doing. It's doing this by showing you what's wrong with you. It's showing you by disappearing until you get it right.

If your optic equipped handgun came with irons that co-witness, great. But ignore the irons. Tape over them if you have to. If your optic equipped pistol did not come equipped with co-witness irons, leave it that way while you're learning. I find some of the worst advice you can give a guy is using the front or rear sight to assist with finding the dot. You're just keeping yourself in the same old rut. They are there in case the optic fails. Nothing more. Ignore them until you've mastered the dot. Which is really mastering your grip and presentation from the holster.

The issues of fogging, dirt, etc. have (in my experience) been moot. I live in what most would consider a mildly humid region and while there is a thin film of fog when you exit an A/C'd building or vehicle, it would in no way impair your shooting of a person that was in need of shooting. On most quality optics, you won't even know it's there.

Last but not least, when you read or hear about a person that claims competition shooting has no relevance to real world application of force, you are reading or hearing the words of a fugking idiot. While some types of gear, teaching points, and tactics may not be transferable to on-duty use of firearms, the vast majority of it is. When you reach regional, state, and national level champion type shooting, you are in the F1 world of handgunning. If those people make a separate classification for dot sights vs. irons, you can rest afugkingssured that they have determined the dot sight gives an advantage that irons cannot compete with. Shooters being comparable of course.


You're welcome,
Flave

Golf clap ....


Golf clap

1st off Flave is not God contrary to what he believes
Secondly, we'll written piece Flave. I've been practicing grip and presentation with gun unloaded picking out different objects around the house. It's becoming more natural. It's about bad habits. Sort of like archery form, if it's not consistent it'll show up on target

Spot on

A blanket feucktard statement. The proverbial teaspoon of dogshlt in the brownies.

Fixed it for you.


One hand clapping...

1.) Yes I am.

2.) I don't need you to tell me I write well.

3.) Which holster are you using?

D.) Please don't compare pistol shooting to archery.

+1

dla's epitaph should read "Just because you could shoot better than me, doesn't mean you could shoot better than me."

The red dot site is good if you live and carry and shoot in a clean environment, but if you work or live in a dusty environment, they are not wonderful, makes no differents what you use, if you know how to use it, if you don't know how it makes a differents. Rio7

If I was buying a new XDm/G20 to hunt with, I might give a dot a tryout.

As it stands I hunt with more traditional stuff and I'm not hanging scopes/dots on them.

The guns I normally carry, an old J frame and an XD45 SC, get shot frequently. I'm comfortable with what I can do with them and fast or deliberate, they're just about autopilot.

Sooner or later one of the friends & family who shoot here will drag a dot-sighted pistol along and I'll give it a try.

Uh Rio, we have been successfully warring w/ illum type optics for 20+ years in dusty environments.

"flaves epistle to the serious shooters nailed it, even though written by a dog pecker gnat.

Learning new schidt will get ya killed on the street



mike r

lvmiker, I'm not at war with anyone, what you say is true,they are not for me and i have tried them, my point is whatever works for you. the dog pecker CATFISH, is good at repeating what he has GOOGLED. he's never been close to a gun fight in his life. Rio7

Brilliant.

Can’t wait to hear what you discover after shooting cans with somebody else’s handgun that you’ve already determined you don’t need.

Rio is every bit as bright as he seems.

LOL

You haven’t tried schit you tired old fugk.

Go water your cows.

Come on CATFISH tell us a war story, you can be the hero it's ok. Rio7

Ladies first.

I insist.

I raise registered quartieri horses and cattedrale, nothing is dustier than grain dust. I wear my carry pistol Daily with RDS. When the glass get covered with dust I simply below it off. I can use the sight with out blowing the d'uso off if need be

jwp475, what ever works for you is fine with me, I have more than my share of horses and cattle, and dust and they don't work for me. Rio7

Which optic, pistol, and holster failed to work for you?

Walls don't work and 20 years of red dots fighting in the desert didn't occur.
Kinda makes me believe Rio7s input is invalid.
Because he's a retard.

Whatever Deflave says works failed in Rios imagination.

No none I was in Iraq with had red dot optic on their pistol. Including the high-speed ODA guys.

The high-speed guys may run red dots now, but I suspect they’re all the higher end RMRs and Aimpoints.

Red dots on rifles are different and were prolific.

I had the problem Rio refers to at a training with Thunder Ranch near Las Vegas. Using a Holosun on my 365XL, dirt and crap got on the ocular side of the site and it was near useless.

20,000 rounds or so with my M4 and a red dot, and I don’t recall that ever happening. In Iraq, in training, or in the dust bowl called Eastern Washington.

Which red dot did you run 20,000 with?

Mostly the issued Aimpoint, or the same optic on my personal rifle.

Although I’ve used and use now a Trijicon MRO on my truck gun.

https://www.trijicon.com/products/product-family/trijicon-mro-red-dot

Why does that matter?

I shoot around 2,000 rounds of 223/5.56 a year, and have done so since I was around 26? I’m 63 now, so the all up number is closer to 75K lifetime through some M4-ish rifle, mostly with red dots.

I was just curious.

When did this become the insecure forum?

Jesus Christ.

I find that hard to believe if he had a decent optic. I'm running a Holosun 507K and a 507C and dust isn't going to stop you from using them

There are a whole new set of verified issues that come with an open emitter red dot. That’s why I want an ACRO P2 if I venture down that road again on a carry gun.

I have never had a problem with a Aim Point, on my ARs, but i now use a 2 x 7 Lupy fire dot. helps these old eyes see a little better. had a big visit with the 2 top active duty Seal hand gun trainers, we talked about optics on a hand gun, they both said if your a paper puncher, they are great, but they didn't want them on their carry gun, one carried a Glock the other carried a Sig. then they both told me i was "OLD SCHOOL" with my 1911, but they both had a great time shooting my .45s with McKay Sagebrush ammo. I use what works for me, and what ever you chose for your use is up to you. Rio7

That's fantastic.

Guru on the Mountaintop,😁

Deflave, very limited dot time on others guns.
Don't like them, but recognize the craftsman isn't able to utilize the tool.
Not that the tool is bad.

Was thinking of trying an iron/dot setup to help find the dam thing.


Now, you got me thinking of just trying a dot on a 22 to get used to them.

If teaching a new handgunner, and wanting them to learn how to use
most anything, Dot or irons first.

I put a dot on the girls 22 rifle and they didn't like it at all.
They ask for the scope back. And that was for 50yd and under plinking.

I would also prefer a acope on a rifle

The Holosun 507C and K have a rear sight on the RDS that will cowitness

My previous post on getting comfortable with them was in reference to defensive type shooting from a holster. And I do believe that a virgin pistol shooter will benefit greatly by going straight to an optic. This is for or a variety of reasons not the least of which being that you are going to have grip issues and presentation resolved right out of the gate. And that can only make you a better shooter in the long run.

But if you just want to try a dot to try a dot, sure. There's nothing wrong with slapping one on a .22LR and giving it a go.

My kids rifles wore dots a lot but for sub-25yds stuff. When I say this I'm referring to beer can or gopher size targets. Bigger targets allow their use out further but if the dot is covering a significant portion of what they want to hit they will struggle. Once my son wanted to start hitting small schit past 30ish yds I made sure he had a 4X or better. My oldest daughter was always fine hitting the stuff that was real close so never moved past them.

Pard and his Wife flew home with me and after leaving the tarmac,I grabbed a few rifles and we headed out to confirm any/all bumps/bruises accrued in transit. He fiddle fhuqked with his schit and I handed her a 223 wearing a BTR Gen2 2-12x Mil FFP and she got windswept by perhaps 6-inches at 1300yds and drove same on the 2nd poke. Why?!? Chicks listen. Hint.

You Chicks would be WELL served to follow suit,as a RDS simply has NO fhuqking equal. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!...............

Thanks.

My thought were a 22 to just get used to the thing.
Give one enough time to decide I like it.
Then move on.

Dealinsuck,

It might be a thang,but watch out for the dust! Hint.



Fhuqking LAUGHING!.................

That was mean.

Thus far it would seem that those who put in the time and effort required to earn competence prefer a rds. You gotta do the reps to learn the lesson. There is no EZ button if you want to be a pistolero


mike r

Little Twig and I have respectfully disagreed in the past.😂😂😂😂😂😂

I quit tweaking him when it became apparent what a troubled, damaged
person he is. It's not right to kick someone like that.

He was just acting out in his mentally weakened way.

I find him to be quite agreeable.

I think anyone that states RDS are a great improvement over irons with respect to speed and accuracy at short ranges are overstating their benefits. There are studies that she even the best shooters only benefit a little from RDSs, and poor shooters tend to do somewhat worse.

This is a study that's been bandied about for several years on many handgun shooting websites that suggests the limited benefits of a red dot for most people, while pointing out that lasers have a much bigger bigger benefit than RDSs for most shooters.

https://blog.krtraining.com/red-dot-study-key-points/

No dispute at longer ranges the RDS is better for accuracy.

Dealinsuck,

Your Brokedick Retardation,only affects you...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Pardon wares that exist,as you "get" to play with your GoogleFu. Hint.

Watch out for that dust! Hint.



Fhuqking LAUGHING!.............







Grocks,

Irons don't sweep Open Division Tournies,because they are SECRETLY "better" and "faster". Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!...................

I'll give my timers a stern talking to.

Thanks.

That's about as plain as it can be put.

If you are on your sights at presentation, then you are on the DOT if you can't find the DOT then you aren't on your sights

[quote=deflave]I find him to be quite agreeable.[img]http://[/img]I can see that you do !!!

Jim wants everybody to know what his interpretation of "handgun" is.

If you’re wrestling with the decision, and have a Glock Gen 3, this is about the same cost as buying the Holosun and sending the Glock slide off to be milled.

And, you get a threaded barrel and suppressor height sights.

And you still have your stock Glock upper in case you decide that this isn’t for you.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...un-hs507c-x2-reflex-sight-black-dlc.html

Who’s milling slides for a direct mount ACRO?

TWR,

If you google that question...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Who%E2%80%99s+milling+slides+for+a+direct+mount+ACRO&rlz=1C1RXQR_enUS962US962&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I guess i should’ve asked who do we trust to mill slides. But thanks.

And thanks for the heads up on the slide and red dot combo, it just cost a buddy of mine some money. Or I should say saved him some.

Well, the shooters sweeping Open Division are the better shooters that do benefit. That's what the study I posted says. It's the average shooter that doesn't practice from the holster that will likely not benefit until they do regularly practice that way.

Exactly, if your presentation sucks, adding an RDS isn't going to help, and may very well make things worse. There is no substitute for practice.

I still need to wring this bish out.

Flave,

I recently picked up a new optics ready carry gun, but I've used red dots on hand guns in the past.

Which one do you recommend?

Been dabbling a little. I vote yea.

If you've used them before you should have an idea of what features you want. If that's a typo I'm afraid I don't have a real solid answer for you as I'm not real dogmatic about them.

I can say that the Triiicon SRO is probably the easiest one to start with and you'd be hard pressed to find something more amazing. It has great coatings, a perfect auto on/off that self adjusts brightness, and a huge window that makes them very easy to learn with. They are very durable in my experience but they're not recommended for duty use.

You can't go wrong with any of the better quality ones. The upper tier Sigs, Holosuns, Trijicons, AIMPOINTS, and Leupold DeltaPoints that I've been around all work very well.

Be cognizant of the fact that not all optics readily mount to all types of pistols. Especially when things are marked Sig or Glock.

Hey toad.

I like your big long barrel.

There is zero value in that study.

Zero.

The comparisons in the study are proper comparisons. That's a value.


It's consistent with this Stick's statement, nothwithstanding Stick's suggestion that Open Division shooters are using the production guns and slide mounted carry optics we're discussing here. They aren't sweeping Open with the types of guns and optics were talking here. There are different divisions for thoses. Shooters in Open are typically using custom compensated race guns with frame mounted optics. The study compares it properly - a particular shooter's scores in Production Division versues that same shooters scores in Carry Optics Division.

"The high hit factors for USPSA classifiers in Carry Optics, relative to those in Production division, are typically a few percent (less than 10%) higher, indicating USPSA’s own assessment of the value gained by adding a red dot sight. By comparison, high hit factors for Open division, where the red dot sights are mounted to the frame, can be as much as 20% higher than the Production scores."

A neophyte shooter who starts out with irons, never learns how to shoot well with them, who switches to a carry optic, and through time and training becomes very proficient shooting with a carry optic may conclude may conclude that carry optics give a shooter a huge advantage. But it's a false dilema. The proper comparison is one where a shooter has reached top proificiency with both to determined the advantage the carry optic provides. The study does that, and the advantage is smaller than most people assume.

That's the value of the study: proper and consistent comparisons.

Deflave.

Yes, that was a typeo, I have NO experience with red dot on pistols.

Thank you for your advice. I'll check out the Triiicon.

Well the more I thought about it, I went and ordered one of the uppers linked above with the Holosun 507c X2 for $419 plus a Dagger lower for $99. Can't get into a Glock MOS for that plus I like the 507C, I've got one on my 686 and had one on my G45 MOS, never had any problems with them and the window is a bit bigger than the RMR.

The Aimpoint ACRO P2 is probably the pinnacle but it's wider than the frame and I'm not sure I'd like that, plus no one has a deal on the right now. If I find I like the dot, I've got a spare G19 I will have milled later. But for now this is too good of a deal to pass up.

Stuck a Holosun on a mk111 Ruger .22 to see if I’d like it.

Now I want one on everything.

That said, if your presentation sucks, it ain’t gonna make it better. If your presentation is in the ballpark of lined up (like mine) and your getting a bit far sighted (like me), it’s a game changer (to use an over used term).

If a skilled iron sight shooter sees less than 10% advantage to adding a dot, then for those shooters the dot is 90+% pointless; plus you've shoved a piece of plastic between those irons you use so well, to catch glare/dirt/dust/moisture and snow.

The exception would be the competition shooter who is striving for any point/time advantage he can get. To them, 5-7% is a win or a loss- a huge deal. I shot with old Bullseye shooters in my youth and dabbled in IPSC when it was a thing. so I really get that.

If a guy wants to try a dot, hell yes go for it. I've got a scary accurate old Buckmark which, with irons will make my little spinner target dance at 50 yards. Maybe it's time to slap a dot on it and see if I can do it from 75.

The article states that between 6-7 years ago somebody gathered 118 people of varying competence with irons sights and had them shoot targets at known distances to ascertain a baseline of speed/accuracy.

They then (with no training) had them shoot a comparable pistol equipped with a red dot and noted that none of them improved.

Well, no fugking schit.

To further affirm just how fugking dumb the people compiling that "data" are, they throw in this little gem:

One of the key pillars of getting pistol shooters up to speed with a red dot sight is making sure they understand that they no longer have to come back to The Artist Formerly Known as the Front Sight. You have to un-train that target, sight, target, sight, target, sight discipline that has been instilled in them. The red dot does not require you to stay on the dot. You can in fact look through the window and watch your target fall with the dot superimposed onto your target. It is one of the greatest attributes to a slide mounted red dot sight. When shooters stop focusing on the dot and let it become part of their peripheral, you will witness that shooter hit turbo mode. This happens regardless of distance because that is how our body, brain, and eyesight are supposed to work. You don't focus on the basketball, you focus on the hoop. You don't focus on the laces, you focus on the receiver. You don't focus on the stitching, you focus on the 1st baseman. Based on the above quote, it is painfully apparent that those conducting the "study" don't understand the basic principles of using a red dot to advantage.

The ability to maintain focus on the target is the whole fugking point of the red dot.

By all means, discuss your concerns about dust, water, battery life, fog, expense, bulk, etc. But don't try to convince people the dot is slower or will make you less of a shooter than irons. That is 100% horse schit.

Cease teaching, you should.

Start learning, you must.


You're Welcome,
Flave

If you're shopping around and have the time, Sage Dynamics has tested the more popular ones and posts them on YouTube. He has his own standardized test that he puts them through.

He seems to have the personality of a scissor jack but he does put gear through its paces and posts about it honestly. Seems to anyway.

Let's all thank Christ that SargeMO wasn't involved in the Apollo Space Program.

Well, that is the point of the study.

Adding a carry optic to a handgun is almost certainly not going to provide an instantaneous benefit to the shooter. That benefit, if it ever to be realized, must come with training. If the shooter doesn't train with it, it m,ay never benefit him.

People that ask if a carry optic will benefit them, the only correct answer is "maybe."

So you don't agree practice is necessary. Just add a carry optic and all bad habits are gone. Got it.

I hope you hit the "Lady" box in PracticeScore.

Now, we're on the same page. Glad to help.

You'll never be on the same page as Flave.

Flave is God.

You are a dumb fugk.

I thought Stick was God.

Your girlfriend is too clean.

Stick to Massad Ayboob and whoever the idiot is that did your "study."

You'll do great.

Gotcha. Thanks.

Over the last several years, I've shot USPSA Level 1, 2 and 3 matches that involved shooting 5 stages to 12-14 stages (0745 hammer down and finishing around 1900) in conditions that included blowing dirt (low visibility and sand everywhere), 30-40 mph winds, 110 deg temps, 15 deg temps, rain, sleet, snow, and everything in-between. Never once did any of the crap produced from those environments keep me from using the dot to hit my targets where I wanted to. This was using Leupold DPP, Sig Romeo 3 Max, and Holosun red dots.

If you want a gun that you count on to run, you keep it somewhat clean, but most importantly oiled. You're going to want to keep your sight clean too. But, even when you can't and you're experiencing horrible conditions, the above isn't going to keep the red dot from functioning if it is a quality dot.

As an RO at those same Level 1-3 matches, I've also seen a lot of shooters in those conditions and their gear still running and their red dot sights still working in those conditions.

This type of info is only going to expand too.

I read yesterday that Carry Optics has become far and away the most popular Division now.

Having a big long barrel is kind of a burden. It can cause things to waaayyyy overpenetrate.

It's getting there. Level 3 a couple of weeks ago had the following:

Carry Optics - 109 shooters
Production - 23
Limited - 49
Open - 116
PCC - 32
Revolver - 3
Single Stack - 7

That's 225 guns with red dots (not counting the PCC folks) and 82 without red dots.

Your base pads are gonna be seen by the enemy.

They’re so non-tactical.

Damn.

I contemplated a Match GP-100 but nobody at my club shoots revolver so I’d never know if I was doing good or bad. LOL

Kinda sad actually.

Even worse, sometimes I put smiley faces on them with a sharpie.

Thank you. Really. Except the God part.

This is why the internet should be shut down. People who don’t know anything about dots, competitive shooting, or teaching are using competitive shooting to prove whether new shooters need dots on their pistols.

I'm not into competitive shooting nor am I a new shooter. Still haven't made it to range yet been to busy. I'll dig this post back up later down the line after I decide if I like the fastfire or put the rear sight back on. Funny Flave thinks he's God. Reckon he's a cult leader.😁

That's what I love about the 'fire. Polite, reasoned discourse and mutual respect for opposing viewpoints.

Umm...
We must be talking about a different campfire 🤣

LMAO. Truth is, I enjoy monkey-cages like this a whole lot more than over-moderated, soy milk clubs masquerading a gun forums. I can't read the milk carton in Flave's avatar, but I bet it's three week old eggnog running about 50% Southern Comfort.

Had a nice practice match last night with lots of shooters running lots of optics and burning lots of powder.

Get out there and train you fugkin' losers.

And don't forget that the the flintlock crowd scoffed at the percussion cap crowd, the Marine Corps thought the M1 Garand was a horrible idea, and at one time (in recent history) a whole buncha decorated combat vets determined an optic could never be made reliable enough for combat.

And for those that said I am not God, I made a note.

dumbass...there is a reason lots and lots of folks who are serious social workers are putting red dots on their handguns.

PS Flave is right

Flave is correct for sure and certain