Home Forums Lever Action Central Lever Actions - General Any love for Miroku-made Winchester lever guns?

I have a few and think they're as well made as any lever gun I've ever owned. Never see much in the way of anyone collecting them or even hunting with them. Does anyone actually hunt with their Mirokus?

Bought one here years ago......NIB 45 Colt IIRC

Was too darn purty to shoot......

But finally did......ended up selling it......

Stuck with the real Marlins

You really have to compare the Miroku Winchester to the Browning guns from the 80’s to see the Browning guns were better made.

The later Miroku guns are OK, but not the quality of the Browning…

I've hunted with the Browning 86 (45-70) a number of times but I've mostly shot steel with it offhand, it's not any fun to shoot off the bench or sticks.

Who made the Browning lever guns in the 80s? I thought Miroku made them then, too. I'm speaking to the 1886, 1892, 1894, etc, not the BLRs. As far as I know, the only difference between an Browning 1892 from the 80s and a presently produced Winchester 1892, other than a safety or other minor details, is the use of the name Winchester, which FN/Browning acquired the rights to some years ago.

Not at all. The newer guns are not as good. They sacrificed fit and finish to produce a cheaper gun…

Never noticed that. My first .44 Mag rifle was a B92 from the mid 80s. It was an excellent gun that I foolishly sold in the 90s. Fit and finsh were far above any Marlin I ever had. I didn't acquire another 1892 until a couple of years ago, a Winchester-marked Browning. Fit and finish is just as stellar as my previous gun. My 1886 and 1894 Miroku-made Winchesters are equally stellar in that regard. No Marlin I've owned or own comes close. There is even a lack of machining marks inside the receiver and the finishes are equally good inside and out.

"To pretty to hunt with" is something I've read with some frequency. The one thing I don't see much is anyone hunting with their Miroku levers. Just curious what that it. All my Mirokus are very accurate guns and I've never had a malfuntion in any of them.

10Glocks,
I have posted multiple times about hunting game in America and DG in Africa with my Miroku/Winchester 1895 .405 WCF and 1886 45-90.

Where you been?

Seriously, you could probably do a search and find some such posts. Also on Africa Hunting forum, Leverguns.com , and a few others.

The only Miroku Lever guns I have are my steel 81 BLR and my Winchester 1885 38-55 single shot . Don't see how the quality could be any better comparing them to any other factory made rifles I have ever handled. I don't expect handmade custom gun quality from a factory made standard production rifle and anybody that does is being unrealistic. I have owned Miroku made shotguns also and the quality always was excellent .

I've had and used Miroku and Belgian rifles and
shotguns both. No difference in the performance
or reliability of either one. Only the collector's
value I'd guess. The birds and animals never
knew any difference

That 1895 in .405 is an intriguing gun. I have zero use for a .405 but then again, I own a bunch of guns I don't need. But I notice it comes up for sale quite a bit more often than any other caliber. If I saw a new one come up in .30-06, I might have a hard time resisting it.

I have a Browning 1886 made by them. It is very well made and smooth cycling. I like it so much that when Miroku started making the Mod 92 I thought about getting one. This was almost 30 years ago. They were not well made then and rattled just by gently shaking them. Since then things have changed and gotten a lot better. I wish they were still made in the U.S. but wouldn't mind getting some more.

Browning 1895. 30-06. And an elkslayer. A great rifle. I installed a Providence Tool Co. #21 receiver sight on it. Really helped my aging eyes.



I also stripped the polyurethane finish and applied an nice oil finish. Installed a very thin Pachmayr pad to prevent slippage and such.

Rifle perfection! Congrats on that one. That's a bucket gun for me for sure.

I have three Miroku-made Winchesters.

1894 Short Rifle .30-30


1892 .44 Mag


1886 Extra Light .45-70


So far, I've only hunted with the .30-30, once. All three are well finished and tight. All are very accurate and none has malfunctioned. The 1892 will cycle 300 grains no problem. I haven't run an Buffalo Bore 305gr hard casts through it

I hunted with my high grade 86 browning. Beautiful gun to say the least. Took a whitetail deer with it. I won’t own it if I can’t shoot it.

webster bank ct

I think they are excellent rifles. I shoot and hunt with them all the time. Like everything else their prices are climbing, but there are still bargain deals on them.

Nice collection!

No thanks. I don't want any safeties on my Winchesters nor do I want to see "made in Japan" stamped anywhere on an American icon.

I can live with the safety but I can't abide the made in Japan stamp on a Cowboy gun.

I leave it off all the time except when cycling unfired rounds. The rebounding hammer is nothing more than a forced half cock. I didn't know if I would like either but they've become non-issues.

I wish my Remington-made Marlins said Made In Japan. They'd probably be much better if they did.

Probably very true. The Nips don't mess around. They make good stuff

I had an 1886. My only complaint was the crescent butt plate. It seemed to exaggerate recoil for me. And when PA went to an antler restrictions, I needed the scope.
I sold it off for a Marlin 1895XLR

I only have one - it has 1 of 500 lettered on the side. It's a heavy octagon barreled 45-70. It wears my favorite sights for lever action rifles, a Steel Lyman aperture sight. I have not shot it enough.
I started fitting a shotgun style butt stock, but never finished it. The gun is heavy, maybe the heaviest rifle I own??? I think heavier than a couple bull barrel bolt guns that I own. I thought it might be a collector item someday.

I don't care for a crescent butt plate either. But the 1892 I have doesn't recoil that hard. I had them on other guns, including a Hawken BP. Loved the gun, but hated that butt plate. Sold and bought a different Hawken style with a flat butt and recoil pad.

I like a crescent butt for a hunting rifle.

Jake must have learned to shoot a crescent butt plate correctly. I learned the first time I shot mine from a bench rest.

Quite simple really, and those that tried and failed to learn have only themselves to blame.

I shoot ground squirrels and jackrabbits out of my friend's alfalfa all the time with my Miroku-made "Winchester" Lo-Wall .22 WRM.

I had a heck of a time finding a scope mount for it but once I got a little Leupold Compact on it, it became one of my favorites. Handy, accurate, and beautiful. And it even likes unleaded ammo!

Crescents are what they are. They're intuitive. You don't even have to shoot them to figure out where they have to be seated on the shoulder. I just don't think they are particulary comfortable. My Hawken didn't have enough stock drop to line the sights up without leaning my head over on the rear of the stock instead of having a more comfortable cheek weld. They're supposed to be like that, and that's fine. But I don't care for it. It's not about shooting them improperly.

OK, buckle up and I will attempt to illustrate the difference of original Winchester, Miroku Winchesters and Miroku Brownings...

First of all, I have owned, shot and hunted with every generation of these guns and continue to look for and buy the right model when I see one. I have loved these guns since I was a kid and haven't grown tired of them. I have found, however, that there are significant differences between several models.

Starting with Winchester, there is a distinct difference in how the original guns were made and how Miroku made them throughout the 80's, 90's and how they make them now.

Original Winchesters are a work of art that can be used, unlike paintings and sculptures. I have quite a few and they continue to impress me with the quality of their manufacture compared to what we have available now. You can still find original Winchesters that aren't too expensive and use them like they were meant to be used. I have shot all sorts of big game as well as small game with them and will continue to do so into the future.

Compare the original to the Browning guns of the early 1980's and you will see that the Browning guns are every bit as good, if not better made than the original Winchesters. If you ever hold a B92 or one of the Browning marked 1886's, you will notice just how good they look and feel. This is not true with the later Miroku made Winchesters.

I bought one of the Winchester 1886 SRC in 45-70 when they were first introduced, and they were excellent in the fit and finish, but if you tried to open the action just a bit to check to see if it was loaded, it would jam and you couldn't close the action back up like you could with the originals, or the Browning.

That may seem insignificant, but it happened and it did that with every Winchester I tried. I talked to Winchester, they didn't have a solution, I had a gunsmith polish the action and it would still jam. Again, that may be insignificant, but it happened...







The current and most recent Winchester offerings have been a disappointment. The 92's are not the quality that the Browning B92 was for a number of reasons. Whether you like it or not, the tang safety is a poor idea and worse is the rebounding hammer. Fit and finish isn't what it was with the B92 either. If you can't see the difference, you haven't looked close or you have never seen a B92.

The modern Winchester 1886 is not the quality of the Browning guns either. The wood is bland, the dimensions are wrong for the forearms and the wood to metal fit is only average. Because of that, I have not and won't own the current Winchester 1886. Compare the Browning to the original and you can see the same quality...




I do have a modern Winchester 1873 SRC in 38/357 and my wife shoots it in Cowboy Action matches. It works with her Uberti 38's that she also shots. It is OK, but still not as good as an original. You can see the wood isn't in the correct dimension on the forearm and the finish is unfinished. Wood to metal fit is only so-so. You can also see the gap of the magazine tube and barrel isn't right either. It doesn't have the rebounding hammer or safety, so it is still a decent Cowboy gun and still better than a Marlin.






As far as the Winchester 1895's go, they suffer from the same afflictions mentioned before. The original 1895's are still affordable and shooting an original will always beat shooting a reproduction, especially in the true 1895 calibers such as 38-72 and 40-72. There is a cool factor there that no modern gun can replicate...






All said and done, the modern Winchester replica will work, but it just isn't a Browning or original Winchester by a significant margin. Many people still like them and shoot them with good results. The choice is yours, but there is a difference, you have to decide for yourself...

I appreciate you knowledge of original Winchesters, and certainly your collection, but I am still at a loss as to how Browning-marked and Winchester-marked Mirokus are different. They aren't made by different companies. The Browning B92 I owned and the Winchester 1892 I own are both made for Browning in the Miroku factory in Kochi, Japan. The only difference is that FN acquired Browning, and Browning acquired the right to use the Winchester name on their reproductions. But the Miroku product is the same. I haven't detected any degraded quality in my 1892 from the BL92 I owned.

These three Winchesters I own are the only Winchester repros I have, but I have several other Mirokus: BLR in .308, BLR in .358, XBolt in .30-06, XBolt in .270, BL22 x 2, SA-22, Auto 5, Citori, and maybe some others I'm foregetting. I've had Belgian made SA-22, BLR and Auto 5 and compared them to the Miroku-made guns, the Mirokus seems finished and fitted better and were every bit as reliable. As far as the BLR, I believe the present BLR is a better design than the older BLRs.

So I get what you are saying. I haven't seen any degraded quality in these lever guns marked Browning and the same guns marked Winchester. As far as the safety goes, that's entirely subjective. I don't mind it. I carry my levers, whether Marlins or Winchesters, with the safety off and on half cock (or hammer rebounded in the case of the Winchesters), and the only time the safety is on is when I am cycling rounds through it. It's a non-issue for me.

I have no problem with mine, but I guess I'm not as bright as Shrapnel. I could do without the rebounding hammer/safety, but they work just fine and look better than any Winchester I could buy for under $20K

Browning did make some high grade guns when they produced them under their own name. Most of the guns with the Winchester name aren't high grade, but some are. Comparing finishes and wood on a high grade gun to a workaday gun seems like a miscomparison. Obviously, the high grade gun will be finished more nicely. And of course the Winchester marked gun have the safeties purists don't like, and which the Brownings didn't have. I get that, but that's subjective.

As far as the wood goes, the Winchesters have standard walnut on them, not wood for high grade models. But can still look good:


And as far as fit and finish, it's perfectly fine. Better than anything that came out of New Haven in anything like recent history:

It’s not how bright you are, it is how observant you are. I showed the difference in a few pictures, you didn’t look or can’t see them.

Do they still work? Absolutely. Are they as well made? Absolutely not.

There are thousands of Winchesters under $20,000.00 that will shame the current offerings, but you don’t have to have one to have satisfaction in owning a lever action rifle. People even think Henry rifles are great.

This isn’t a debate on what works or what doesn’t, just an effort to show the difference…

First, I'm not trying to argue with you. I appreciate your willingness to discuss this issue. Discussion is how reasonable people either come to a meeting of the minds, or respectfully disagree.

You did write some things that perhaps ought to be expanded on:


What's that difference? I'm not speaking to the safety. I'm speaking to manufacturing processes, metalurgy, etc. Why do you believe the Miroku makes a worse gun under the Winchester name than they did under the Browning name, when they are both made for Browning (Browning owns Winchester)? Again, I'm not talking about subjective dislikes, like the safety. Why would Browning okay Miroku reducing quality on their guns just because of a name change?


It is in my experience, I've owned both. Just curious what your specific observation was that leads you to this opinion?


I have not experienced that with my 1886 Extra Light. I've only run factory ammo through it: Federal Fusion 300 gr, Remington 300gr and 405gr, and LeverEvolution, all without a hickup. You, unfortunately experienced malfunctions on every Miroku Winchester 1886 you tried. I can't explain it. I've never heard of, or read, anyone else experiencing a 100% failure rate on the Miroku 1886s. But I also don't read a lot of forums.


The safety is a subjective dislike and not a quality issue. I understand purists don't like it. But aside from the safety, what is the difference in quality between a 1892 with a Browning name and one with a Winchester name, and more importan tly, why would Miroku, who made both suddenly reduce quality when its roll marked Winchester? Here is disagree with you, because with respect to the 1892, I have owned both, and both were stellar. And again, let's not compare a high grade or commemorative rifles to a workaday gun. High end guns are supposed to be finished better. Both my 1892s were blued and walnut, as basic as they come.


Here I agree with you - the originals are cooler. No argument. I have a 1901 made Marlin 1893 takedown with an octagon barrel in .30-30 that my great grandfather hunted turkey with in Pennsylvania. It's a great gun and it's way cooler than any other I own. But it doesn't mean my other Marlins are bad. They're just different. And the newer guns are more reliable. My 1893 jams occassionally. But cool is, again, subjective.

I haven't heard of specific mechanical or quality issues with the Miroku 1895s. I have read opinions from people that own both originals and repros who hold a diametrically opposite position - that they think the Miroku is better. But they don't give much in the way of a reason, either.

Much ado about nothing!
Bitch and whine, whine and bitch -- has become so tiresome. I buy Winchesters because they meet my hunting needs. If they do not meet your needs, shoot something else!

I shoot the rifles with safeties and without the safeties with the same result -- DEAD GAME.

To each his own and buy what you like, but please stop whining and bragging /complaining about it. Take your gun and go shooting with it.

Who cares what someone else thinks about your rifle if it works for you and you like it.

I have been shooting them for well over 50 years and still do not like them . Given the choice I will always take a shotgun butt or carbine/musket style over a crescent any day. I know the correct way to use them and the others are still by far the more comfortable to shoot.

I had the hammer spring modified on my Miroku’s hammer spring. The guy volunteered to modify it. He claimed that the rebounding hammer sometimes would not hit the firing pin hard enough to reliably fire the cartridge. I don’t know about that, but the guy swore up and down that was a problem. I’ve asked an outfit that converts the hammer back to original Winchester but the cost was pretty high, I thought.
As far as crescent vs. shotgun butt, I too prefer the shotgun butt. Yes, I do know how to use the crescent butt.
As far as the rear sight I very much dislike the sight the Miroku’s have. I understand that back in the day the buckhorn sight was used to help the hunter adjust for elevation. Maybe if my only rifle had the buckhorn sight and I used the rifle daily to gather food for the table I’d get used to the sight and master it. As is I don’t like buckhorn sights.

I've read that, and have yet to experience it. Maybe someone had a really hard primer or something. Never experienced it in my Winchesters, nor my Sig Sauer pistols that have rebounding hammers.

But what would the majority of campfire members do then?

Have yet to have a rebounding hammer not work properly. Still don't like them, but then I grew up with old levers.

Same here. But they still don't inspire confidence in me 😄

I I’m sending my other 45-70 in for some work, so I might get the Miroku out shooting. My oldest son has his eyes on it. I image I’ll be giving it to him, but not until my gunsmith is through with my other 45-70.

Remember having a conversation with our Browning rep about the B92s around 1984 or 85. Told him that we would not be able to keep them in stock if they also had offered them in the traditional cartridges like .44 WCF, .32 WCF, etc. etc.

He acted like he’d been gutshot. Then he said some smart-azz comment that apparently I knew more than their marketing people.

10Glocks said somethings about where to mount a crescent butt plate on your shoulder! Do not mount on the shoulder!

Without further explanation, I will try to clarify that.
You do NOT mount the crescent on your shoulder. You can mount it one of two ways.
1. Upper part on biceps and lower tip in arm pit.
2. Lower tip in arm pit and upper tip in cup between shoulder arm joint and chest.

It took only one 45-90 shot to tell me that it was wrong (and possibly painful) to mount the butt plate on the shoulder.

Since learning to mount it correctly, no pain!

Feel pretty fortunate to have had the success I have had. Hard to believe a thing could be killed with a rebounding hammer, a safety, and a fuggin crescent butt plate. 😂🤣😂

I am sooo butt hurt!

Pick on Winchester.browning , miruko etc etc.


BUT LEAVE MARLINS OUTTA THIS PLEASE! I

What I was getting at is that you don't mount a crescent on your shoulder like a flat butt - like on the outer portion of your pec near your collar bone. You mount it on your shoulder further out so the bottom portion of the crescent goes under your armpit. The top of the crescent will be pointed at the rotator cuff. All that area is still shoulder.

And really, all you have to do it shoulder the rifle to realize you shouldn't mount a crescent like a flat butt. You don't need to fire it to learn that. Feeling the bottom point of the crescent jabbing into your pectoralis should immediately tell you is unwise to fire when the rifle is mounted that way.

I love Marlins, too. I've owned quite a few over the years. This is my great grandfather's 1893 take down made in 1901. It's in .30-30. He used to shoot turkeys with it in Pennsylvania. It was handed down to my grandfather who killed deer with it in Pennsylvania. It skipped my dad then came to me when my grandfather died. I've killed one deer with it. I shoot it only very occassionally. The flat part of the tip of the ejector is broken off, but it still ejects fine. It will go to my son one day.

Also in the picture is a whistle he made out of the tip of a deer antler. Its the loudest, smoothest sounding whistle I ever heard. And the other thing is a ancient silver plated commemorative .30-30 shell marked:

WINCHESTER REP. ARMS CO.
PATENTED AUG. 22, 1899
.30 CALIBER WINCHESTER
USE 32 S&W SMOKELESS






The first gun I ever bought for myself, and the first centerfire rifle I ever owned, was a Marlin 336 I bought in 1986. Up until then, I had only hunted deer with shotguns. I bought it at BEST department store, along with a couple boxes of ammo. The same day I took it to the a range and sigted it in. That fall I took it out and killed, up until then, my biggest buck on my first hunt with that rifle.

To be fair, my 1989 Winchester 94, made in CT, has a rebounding hammer too.

Thanks for trying to enlighten the masses, I'm not sure what we'd do without you.

Per Region6,
"Hard to believe a thing could be killed with a rebounding hammer, a safety, and a fuggin crescent butt plate. 😂🤣😂"

+1

More like a miracle that my 1886 TD .45-90 with all the above mentioned features could kill an Elephant, many cape Buff, leopard , etc, But it did + much more.

I bought my 1886 for hunting and not for a fashion show. And hunt it does.
Amazing how rarely other hunters ask about such minute details. Methinks they do not know or care about such trivia.

It seems that some people like certain things, while other people don’t like certain things. Further the people that like things are mad at the people that don’t like things because they like things.

Then he said some smart-azz comment that apparently I knew more than their marketing people.

Apparently he did know more about the lever gun market than their marketing people.

No problem- there ae other lever gun makers willing to supply hunters and shooters.

And again the 'fire goes... Shrapnel was writing to the quality of the various builds, nothing more.

Shrapnel knows his stuff. He's worth reading and listening to. I had a chance to actually talk to him and we were able to discuss things and I understand his observations now.

Shrap is a sharp cookie! 😉. Im honored to be able to call him a friend!

Love all of mine. I have three 1895, one a TR African Safari, the other a "Plain Jane" model both 405 WCFs, a vintage 1916 in 303 Brit and a gorgeous 1886 in 45-90

The Miroku-made Winchester lever guns I own now are the nicest lever guns I've ever owned. If the Miroku-made Browning reproductions were even better than these as Shrapnel attests, they must have been spectacular, indeed.

A couple years ago I picked up a supposedly unfired Miroku Winchester Mod. 71 Deluxe. It is the nicest blue steel walnut rifle I have ever owned. Dark well checkered walnut and a deep almost black blue finish.

In keeping with my plan to have a .35 caliber old school lever gun with near .35 Whelen ballistics I had it rechambered to a .348 Ackley Improved. Laid in a healthy supply of 250 grain bonded Alaska Bullet Works bullets, H4350 and Federal 215 Match Primers and Starline brass. Hoping to get 2,500fps mv out of my load choice.

I sent three fired cases off and had Whidden make up .348 Ack. Imp. dies and got a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

I doubt any moose or bear I shoot with it will appreciate all the expense and trouble I went to.

Got rid of rebounding hammer, trigger job, cut barrel to 22", full length magazine tube and XS receiver sight and Pachmayer Sporting Clays recoil pad. Had Levergun Leather Works make me up a five round butt cuff with a brown bear carves on the cheek side and a one inch black sling from Montana Leather Slings.

Wife made me a smoke tanned moose hide scabbard for it and when I put my Filson Packer hat on and hold that rifle while sitting around the fire pit in the back yard, I look like a real old Alaskan Sourdough! It is a well made, well fit and well put together rifle. Just purdy to look at!

I am pleased with it, but really don't need it, as it won't do any thing my wonderful Marlin 45-70 won't do.

I own a Browning M71 Carbine and a Browning M53 and both are beautifully fit and finished. They shoot well too. This is my 71's maiden voyage with a red dot. Yeah, I know...

Had a B92 briefly, and it was a little gem, but I simply couldn’t shoot it nearly as well as my Low Wall, plus the 1-38” twist wouldn’t handle some bullets I like, so it went to someone that wanted to admire it, not shoot it.

No doubt about it, the guns Miroku made for Browning had better wood, sometimes very very nice, and based on pics the wood to metal fit was better too. I have two Browning LWs, and they’re staying right here until I depart.

I have a hankering for one of the new 73s, but they seem to be unobtanium. Actually all Mirokus seem scarce, including the Citori 725 I’ve had on order for four months. An option for “Winchesters” is Pedersoli, which is making 94s and 86/71s in both traditional styling and modern. They make an 86 in .444 too. Reviews have been very positive, but you know how that goes. Taylors & Co. is very nearby, so if they ever show any in stock I’ll go take a gander.

Does anyone know if the current color-cased Winchesters are real or some kind of paint?

Ed

What type of red dot?

How did you mount it?

That looks like money!

Well done sir!

Winchester says its a "finish."

As far as Pedersoli goes, I ordered a '71 from Elk County Ammo and Arms but cancelled the order once I had a chance to hold one and open it up and look inside. It was beautifully finished outside. Inside it was a disaster. It was rough cycling and the rough tool marks inside were shocking. I was surpised a gun carrying that price tag was so shoddily finished inside. I did some research and found I wasn't alone in concluding that. I've got some Pedersoli muzzleloaders and they are great. But that lever gun I looked at turned me off to Pedersoli levers. Maybe they are better now, I don't know. Once thing that consistently pops up is Pedersoli's horrendouly poor customer service. I haven't had to use it with my Hawkens. And hope I don't.

I have several and a couple of BLR takedowns.
They are my useful rifles, one is a.270 wcf and the other a .450.
Both are quite beaten, the .270 is my main carry .
I have found it so useful, I hunt horseback, and had deep army style saddle bags made to accommodate.
the rifle in take down mode. I adapted the bags for shoulder carry and are large enough for a compact spotting scope and other needs when afoot.
I don't need a backpack and the stuff is always dry afoot or horseback.
I also put L.E.R . Scopes on both( scout scopes)
a 2x7 Burris on the .270.
So, yes and I have other Miroku's .

Pappy, I don’t believe the new Winchesters are a true case hardening. I don’t believe it’s a paint. In the picture is a new Winchester 73 and a Marlin that was bone charcoal heated.

Burris FF3.

Turnbull mount.

https://www.turnbullrestoration.com...rmr-holosun-winchester-71-1886-receiver/

You and one other guy.Don't know where those Pedersoli's came from .Mine is mirror finished inside,cycle's and feed's like butter.On par with my Perazzi.

I have a Browning 65 and 53, 218 Bee and 32-20 respectively. Both are beautiful rifles and better fitted and finished than any original Winchester of the same models. My 65 is far more accurate than the two original 65s friends owned and shot. Never had the opportunity to shoot any original 53s. Handled a few in shops and at gun shows but never shot any originals.

Have the 1886 Browning rifle and carbine. Guess my boys will have to fight over them.

I had an 86 back in the 80's I hunted with. I killed two bull elk with it, using 405 gr Semi jacketed bullets ( I think they were Remingtons) and 3031 powder. I tried some 500 gr cast in it 2-3 times.The only thing that had more recoil was a 12 gauge rifled slug in 3" magnum.

The first was frontal shot at about 50 feet. He reared and went over backwards and stumbled thru about 15yards of nasty blow down. The second was thru the lungs broad side at about 10 yards. He was angling up a hill, but turned and came down the hill towards me. He fell about 5 feet in front of me.

I was not fun to shoot and was pretty heavy. I think around 11-12 pounds fully loaded.. Carrying it in a saddle scabbard, it tended to pull my saddle off center unless I loaded the other side.

Toting it around in thick timber crawling over blow downs was not fun either. Sorry I sold it though, but I have old Winchester 94 now made in the early 1900's in 38-55 that is little easier on the shoulder

Nothing but a plain working modern Miroku made one of 501 1886 .45-90 TD rifle. Which is what I needed for planned hunts in Africa and America.
Ballistics of NF 450 grain FPS bullet at 2150 FPS MV are in upper .458 Win Mag range and kill accordingly.
The 9,5 pounds weight helped in aiming the rifle and controlling the recoil. As expected, the rifle recoiled vertically and then settled right back down on target thanks to the crescent butt plate; works like a charm.
It met all requirements as did experienced 1886 hunter that shot for our team in Africa.

As expected, I am not interested in "bling" on a tool such as a rifle. Functionality and reliability come first and bling is never even considered. After it bounced out of a speeding vehicle in Africa, the scrapes and dents were removed as was the forward tip of the cheek rest thereby allowing the tang sight to fold back into lock below the top line of the stock butt .
Reckon a new picture is overdue?

I have a 1 in 500 (501?) in 45-70. The rifle is a little heavy. My oldest son fondles it each time he sees it.

Ed, I been thinking about buying one of those Turnbull mounts for my 1886 45-90.
When you mount the rifle to your shoulder is the red dot easy to find? Or do you have to "search" for it?
What size dot did you go with?

When you mount the rifle to your shoulder is the red dot easy to find? ???

One of the reasons that I stayed with old fashioned "peep" apertures and a folding barrel sight.