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Campfire Outfitter
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I’m in some rugged country with big peaks, clear creeks, cypress, maples, sycamore, Lacey Blue Oaks, pinion pines, madrone trees, and over 1000 springs. God’s abundance of game animals, so many exotics that don’t fall under Texas law that eat better than any whitetail and I kill them all year round. NO MOSQUITOES, ALWAYS BREEZE, and 68 degree nights on the hottest of Texas days. My Hollows look much like the Buffalo River in Arkansas. I am Blessed, Thanks Be to God ! And I’ll fight harder than any Comanche to keep it ! If you had property where I do, you’d understand why the Comanche fought so hard. I’m not sure where in Texas you are but even with the migratory buffalo herds and plethora of wild game in the pre-Civil War days it was unforgiving country. A lot of arid wasteland with not much nutritional value in the native forage that just didn’t support a lot of game. Other areas were obviously much better since Texas is a big state but it didn’t change the Comanche’s motivation for fighting. The settlers lightly guarded cattle and horses made for easy pickings in the early days of the Republic and whatever possessions the whites had were valuable to the the Comanche. Fighting and stealing was what the Comanches, like most tribes simply did, they were ruthless, thieving, grudge holding bastards that loved brutality all in their quest for wealth and dominance. The Comanches were pioneers amongst the natives for their unbelievable horsemanship and their understanding of animal husbandry. Their wealth was almost exclusively tied to the horse so capturing a herd of horses was their equivalent of winning the lottery. White man’s guns were useful in their quest for wealth and as trade goods. Mostly though the young men needed to steal horses, count coup and perform the other requirements for manhood and warrior status so they needed to fight and do battle in order for the tribe and the young men to grow and flourish. The Comanches were less guarding “their land” than they were simply doing what they’d done for generations upon generations. The ease with which they could steal horses, cattle and slaves as well as gang rape the white women and brutally torture and murder made attacking whites an easy choice. They iron loot, guns, coffee, sugar, tobacco, ALCOHOL and other plunder was how tribes garnered power and prestige and “wealth”. The Comanches were nomadic with vast territory. The buffalo and game were “theirs” but they really were not fighting for “their land”….at least certainly not in the early years pre-Civil War. Their desires were more geared towards the accumulation of wealth and power, ie horses, guns, powder and lead.
Last edited by JohnnyLoco; 06/21/22.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Pretty much however the Comanche were the worst of the worst. The Comanche were feared by other fearless tribes and didn’t need provocation to unleash total brutality. The Tonkawas weren’t all that scared of them, neither were the Waco’s, Omahas or Pawnee, all of whom would go out on foot into Comancheria, expecting to return on Comanche horses. But who was REALLY cutting a wide swathe into the Comanches were the displaced rifle-armed Eastern tribes; Cherokee, Creek, Delaware, Kickapoo, Seminole among others. Noah Smithwick, mentioned in that other thread, lived with them for six months, in a Comanche camp. Those Comanches saved his life when vengeful Waco’s wanted to kill him. Some Tejanos in San Antonio were on a first-name basis such that when the angry Comanches came boiling into town after the 1840 Council House Fight debacle, their leader Isomania stopped in at a cantina to ask where the Texians were. Throughout those decades, around 500 Tejano families were living out of carretas, ox carts, hauling freight across the Plains, somehow escaping rapine and pillage. Even more surprising, Mexican vaqueros were routinely driving hundreds, sometimes thousands, of horses and mules up from Mexico through Texas to sell in the US. When the Comanches finally launched their big 1,000 man raid in 1840, they curiously bypassed most everything to hit Victoria TX and then Linnville on the coast, which were not coincidentally the seat of government in exile and the location of the arsenal of the Federalista faction of an ongoing Mexican Civil War. Meanwhile the Hill Country Germans took the unusual step of politely asking permission to settle Comanche lands, Comanches still come down to celebrate a mostly unbroken truce every year in Fredericksburg. Forty-Niners swarmed across Texas en route to California that year, few were molested by Comanches but they did bring cholera with them, wiped out about 10,000 Comanches, they never recouped those losses.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Outfitter
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If black folk woulda fought harder we wouldn’t have this Unnatural Pride, JuneTeeenth, Baby daddy day. They woulda been free much earlier not two years late in Texas ! Side note: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ast-american-slave-ship-found-in-alabama
Last edited by JohnnyLoco; 06/21/22.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Comanche, means enemy, the name given to them by other tribes. Yeah and it’s a well deserved name. As a kid I always thought the Apache were the worst but the more I read the more I realized that the Comanche made the Apache look like Sunday school teachers. 😁 The Comanches referred to themselves as “the people” [The Comanche /kəˈmæntʃi/ or Nʉmʉnʉʉ (Comanche: Nʉmʉnʉʉ; "the people"] And they quickly ran off the Apaches when they started to dominate the area that includes most of TX and a large area of NM. This area became known as Comancheriia. Here’s a brief synopsis: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comancheria
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Outfitter
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In the end, when left to DNA and natural survival without law, the WHITE MAN IS SUPERIOR!
Its just a scientific and historical fact.
Its why in Hillary’s Army, we only have token minorities. The trigger pullers are mostly white. Big event coming up soon.
Last edited by JohnnyLoco; 06/21/22.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Have any of you guys read the book by J.W. Wilbarger titled "Indian Depredations In Texas" ?
It is a very interesting read that focuses on the " Battles, wars, adventures, forays, murders, massacres, etc., etc."
I assume it is rather one sided, yet I was a bit shocked on the cruelty of the Indians towards women and children.
I was wondering what you scholars think of the book and it's authenticity?
"An open message for all Democrats; "Look you are nothing and your work is worthless. Anyone who chooses you is detestable." Isaiah 41:24 (HCSB)
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
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After the Comanche chiefs were killed in the fort at San Antonio, the Comanches back at the camp had about 20 white captives there. They staked them out naked, including little children, and the squaws slowly tortured them to death. Cut open their bellies, cut off or burned off their hands and slowly tortured them over a span of a dozen hours.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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After the Comanche chiefs were killed in the fort at San Antonio, the Comanches back at the camp had about 20 white captives there. They staked them out naked, including little children, and the squaws slowly tortured them to death. Cut open their bellies, cut off or burned off their hands and slowly tortured them over a span of a dozen hours. So says Fehrenbach, he was born before his time, today he would be writing “graphic novels”. Actually the Comanches did torture, of course. Indeed the sight of the brutally disfigured and abused Matilda Lockhart is what triggered the Council House Fight in the first place wherein all twelve (??) Comanche chiefs, including the one that had hosted Smithwick, died. To the Comanches, the Texians had practiced unparalleled treachery, killing people who had entered trustingly under a flag of truce. What Fehrenbach chooses to omit however is that subsequent to the fight, and the tortures, the Comanche Chief Isomania, working quietly behind the scenes through like minded residents of San Antonio, did arrange the exchange of several unharmed White captives for Comanche women and children held in Mission San Jose.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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After the Comanche chiefs were killed in the fort at San Antonio, the Comanches back at the camp had about 20 white captives there. They staked them out naked, including little children, and the squaws slowly tortured them to death. Cut open their bellies, cut off or burned off their hands and slowly tortured them over a span of a dozen hours. Well, that wasn't a very Christian thing for them to do. L.W.
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." (William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830s.)
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I’ve studied enough to know that life was brutal and especially without antibiotics
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
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After the Comanche chiefs were killed in the fort at San Antonio, the Comanches back at the camp had about 20 white captives there. They staked them out naked, including little children, and the squaws slowly tortured them to death. Cut open their bellies, cut off or burned off their hands and slowly tortured them over a span of a dozen hours. So says Fehrenbach, he was born before his time, today he would be writing “graphic novels”. Actually the Comanches did torture, of course. Indeed the sight of the brutally disfigured and abused Matilda Lockhart is what triggered the Council House Fight in the first place wherein all twelve (??) Comanche chiefs, including the one that had hosted Smithwick, died. To the Comanches, the Texians had practiced unparalleled treachery, killing people who had entered trustingly under a flag of truce. What Fehrenbach chooses to omit however is that subsequent to the fight, and the tortures, the Comanche Chief Isomania, working quietly behind the scenes through like minded residents of San Antonio, did arrange the exchange of several unharmed White captives for Comanche women and children held in Mission San Jose. Dammit, I thought Fehrenbach was a scholar. Looks like his book needs to go into the trash. I did buy today The Comanche Empire by Hamailanen.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Jean Louis Berlandier had some interesting comment concerning Comanche wimmens. Circa 1828-ish
Founder Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison? And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools, Being native burghers of this desert city, Should in their own confines with forked heads Have their round haunches gored."
WS
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Have any of you guys read the book by J.W. Wilbarger titled "Indian Depredations In Texas" ?
It is a very interesting read that focuses on the " Battles, wars, adventures, forays, murders, massacres, etc., etc."
I assume it is rather one sided, yet I was a bit shocked on the cruelty of the Indians towards women and children.
I was wondering what you scholars think of the book and it's authenticity? Yes. I have that one.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Dammit, I thought Fehrenbach was a scholar. Looks like his book needs to go into the trash. I did buy today The Comanche Empire by Hamailanen. I believe Fehrenbach’s “Lone Star” is considered a definitive book on Texas history, been decades since I read it. He used to write newspaper columns, I seem to recall his politics were impeccable too. His “Comanches: The Destruction of a People” is fast-paced and easy to read, but it borders on historical fiction. One of my favorite books for decades, until I began to look beyond it. In Hamalainen you’ll read about Comanches who were astute businessmen and stock breeders, and the pressures on young Comanche men to accumulate wealth. Easy to see how they could transition seamlessly into herding cattle as the buffalo dwindled. Indeed, in Central Texas those bands of Comanches were already driven to accept a reservation as early as the 1850’s when a major drought decimated the Buffalo herds. Those reservation Comanches later removed to Oklahoma when their reserve was disbanded. It was during that Texas reservation period that Jacob John “Doc” Sturm was assigned to them as an agricultural advisor. Twenty years later he was still with them in Oklahoma, where he also functioned as a Doctor. It was at his own request that he went out to bring in those Comanches still out see.... https://quanahparkerday.com/history/mackenzie_messenger.htmlSubsequent to bringing in Quanah’s group, Sturm and the noted former Comanche war leader Mowray set out across Texas seeking scattered Comanche fugitives, women and children, and bringing them in. IIRC later in life Sturm married an educated Creek woman and their home was renowned for their generosity, it is said that no one ever left there hungry. They take a different view of things in Oklahoma, prob’ly on account of all the Indians, to the best of my knowledge Doc Sturm is still remembered fondly in Comanche memory today.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
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Have any of you guys read the book by J.W. Wilbarger titled "Indian Depredations In Texas" ?
It is a very interesting read that focuses on the " Battles, wars, adventures, forays, murders, massacres, etc., etc."
I assume it is rather one sided, yet I was a bit shocked on the cruelty of the Indians towards women and children.
I was wondering what you scholars think of the book and it's authenticity? Yes. I have that one. I’m pretty sure Wilbarger’s accounts are accurate, he spoke to the people involved, first person.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Good thread.
Similarly to some of the other comments I had always believed that it was the Apache that were the most brutal and most warlike. I mostly based that on Geronimo and what he was able to do with a small band of warriors and had assumed that the Comanche were the second string as far as warriors and warfare went.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Read Ann Whitney’s story very interesting ordeal.
Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.
The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming.
Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 69,260 Likes: 10 |
Have any of you guys read the book by J.W. Wilbarger titled "Indian Depredations In Texas" ?
It is a very interesting read that focuses on the " Battles, wars, adventures, forays, murders, massacres, etc., etc."
I assume it is rather one sided, yet I was a bit shocked on the cruelty of the Indians towards women and children.
I was wondering what you scholars think of the book and it's authenticity? Yes. I have that one. I’m pretty sure Wilbarger’s accounts are accurate, he spoke to the people involved, first person. Yep.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2007
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Good thread.
Similarly to some of the other comments I had always believed that it was the Apache that were the most brutal and most warlike. I mostly based that on Geronimo and what he was able to do with a small band of warriors and had assumed that the Comanche were the second string as far as warriors and warfare went. The Comanche were the greatest horse warriors of all time.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
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I’m in some rugged country with big peaks, clear creeks, cypress, maples, sycamore, Lacey Blue Oaks, pinion pines, madrone trees, and over 1000 springs. God’s abundance of game animals, so many exotics that don’t fall under Texas law that eat better than any whitetail and I kill them all year round. NO MOSQUITOES, ALWAYS BREEZE, and 68 degree nights on the hottest of Texas days. My Hollows look much like the Buffalo River in Arkansas. I am Blessed, Thanks Be to God ! And I’ll fight harder than any Comanche to keep it ! If you had property where I do, you’d understand why the Comanche fought so hard. I’m not sure where in Texas you are but even with the migratory buffalo herds and plethora of wild game in the pre-Civil War days it was unforgiving country. A lot of arid wasteland with not much nutritional value in the native forage that just didn’t support a lot of game. Other areas were obviously much better since Texas is a big state but it didn’t change the Comanche’s motivation for fighting. The settlers lightly guarded cattle and horses made for easy pickings in the early days of the Republic and whatever possessions the whites had were valuable to the the Comanche. Fighting and stealing was what the Comanches, like most tribes simply did, they were ruthless, thieving, grudge holding bastards that loved brutality all in their quest for wealth and dominance. The Comanches were pioneers amongst the natives for their unbelievable horsemanship and their understanding of animal husbandry. Their wealth was almost exclusively tied to the horse so capturing a herd of horses was their equivalent of winning the lottery. White man’s guns were useful in their quest for wealth and as trade goods. Mostly though the young men needed to steal horses, count coup and perform the other requirements for manhood and warrior status so they needed to fight and do battle in order for the tribe and the young men to grow and flourish. The Comanches were less guarding “their land” than they were simply doing what they’d done for generations upon generations. The ease with which they could steal horses, cattle and slaves as well as gang rape the white women and brutally torture and murder made attacking whites an easy choice. They iron loot, guns, coffee, sugar, tobacco, ALCOHOL and other plunder was how tribes garnered power and prestige and “wealth”. The Comanches were nomadic with vast territory. The buffalo and game were “theirs” but they really were not fighting for “their land”….at least certainly not in the early years pre-Civil War. Their desires were more geared towards the accumulation of wealth and power, ie horses, guns, powder and lead. Camp Wood area- ish?
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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