Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Why the hate for the Apostile Paul?

I love Apostle Paul.

He wasn't always named Paul.

Before Paul, he was Saul.

Jesus Himself said of Paul, “he is a chosen vessel of mine.”

Apostle Paul used the phrase “the Law of Christ” in two of his letters. It was his shorthand for Jesus’ New Covenant command. When Jesus gathered with His disciples (ALL Jews) for the final Passover, He said He was giving them a new command. And this new command was gonna replace all of the other 600+ commands in the Old Covenant. He gave them this new command because He was establishing a New Covenant.

This new command was simple...“You are to love one another as I have loved you.” And He said that by this unique kind of New Covenant love, everyone would know that they were His disciples. Apostle Paul takes ‘that’ (Jesus’ own words) and promotes it through all of his letters as the uniting ethic for ALL of Jesus’ followers.

The Law of Moses was only supposed to last until Jesus came...and through His sacrifice...Jews and Gentiles were made into one body of Jesus’ followers. The barrier of the Law which had divided them had been broken down.

Apostle Paul said that Jesus’ followers are now under the Law of Christ and were no longer under the Law of Moses. The New Covenant Law of Christ is the marching orders for Jesus’ followers. It should inform our thoughts and our actions and pretty much everything else that we do.

Im always impressed by the biblical knowledge that some on the fire have. I’m far from a biblical scholar have a basic understanding. I’ve always believed that

1) you need to believe in God and the plan of salvation.

2) you need to strive to live a Christ like life knowing that you will fall short but still make a sincere effort to live it.

Way to many of these threads turn into trash talk that I don’t want to go into but for those that believe that faith is enough how does that mesh with a horrible person that believes but lives a lifestyle counter to everything taught and doesn’t care but believes in God? Works as in the Pharisees that we’re into showboating are unimportant but it seems to me that believing and also striving to live a Christian lifestyle do matter.

There are some good and smart men here. Dude’s like TF49 and Rock Chuck and Muffin and RJY66 are pretty flippin’ stout when it comes to Biblical knowledge.

I think the kind of ‘believing’ that really matters in this instance is more than just an acknowledgment that something is true. It involves confidence in the Gospel, and a resulting action.

I see it as a totally different way of approaching life. Within the context of a brand new covenant that says "Your sin is paid for, now go live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you."

Same.

Grace IMO covers you so to speak when you’ve made a mistake but live the lifestyle. Someone that believes and strives to live the lifestyle is covered if they make a momentary mistakes and then stroke out a moment later. It isn’t a free pass to simply believe while living an evil lifestyle counter to all teachings as I understand it.

Why the hate for the Apostile Paul?

Good morning to you, Mister Wabigoon. I greet you from my hospital bed. I am on the mend. I suspect they will throw me out today.

You ask a good question. I have at least one man’s answer. For me, it was not as much hate as just animosity. It started maybe 30-40 years ago, and it’s pretty much resolved itself. It was a phase in my growth as a Christian.

For me, there was a point where I grew tired of looking for answers and always finding this guy, Paul, being quoted. It came to seem that there was Jesus, and what he said and did, and then this Paul guy stepped in and stole the show, and usurped the message. This was also about the time that there was a new movement afoot highlighting the actual words of Jesus. This appealed to me.

This is somewhat where Thomas Jefferson was coming from when he compiled the Jefferson Bible. What did Jesus really say? Versus what did people say he meant? At the time, it held a lot of meaning for me. Paul, on the other hand, seemed like an extraneous voice. He grew to represent just a lot of noise. I spent the better part of a decade concentrated on just the four Gospels. Probably when I joined the Campfire, I was still in this phase.

That was an important step in my growth as a Christian. Eventually, I got to understand the Gospels better, and after a fashion, Paul’s message started to come through. I stopped seeing him as a usurper, but more as a lens, clarifying the implications of what Jesus had said. Over time, the animosity went away, and I’m much more open to his message.

Even I know it's Apostle Paul, not Apostile. Usually not a grammar Nazi but...

Paul is cool!

Okay so I have a question. How "good" do you have to be or how successful do you have to be in "living the lifestyle"? Professing Christians run the gamut from Mother Theresa to Joe Blow who drinks, cusses, has anger issues and a secret porn addiction, but shows up to church every Sunday in his coat and tie, is on his "best behavior" and pays his "tithe". All the other brothers and the preacher at church think Joe is a swell guy because they only see him at "his best" and assume he is "living the lifestyle".

So, where is the dividing line between the worst person who barely squeaks into heaven and the best sinner who just misses the cut and winds up in hell assuming both genuinely believe? I've never been able to answer that. Best I can come up with is that a "genuine" convert is gonna eventually produce some "fruit" in his life but that puts me back to the beginning intellectually asking "how much is enough" ? Is one orange enough or does he need a whole sack full?

All of the Apostles including Paul greatly exhorted their followers to do good works. Everyone who talks about Paul remembers verses like Romans 6
:23 or Ephesians 2:8 but the same man who wrote those verses also kicked a guy out of the Corinthian church for having an affair with his step mother and said to do the same thing with others who claimed to be "brothers" but did certain things. So, works were expected to maintain membership in Paul's churches. But I still haven't found the answer of "how much is enough and how little is not enough" regarding salvation. About the guy screwing his step mother, Paul said and I paraphrase, "turn him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved". That is a little over my head but obviously Paul didn't think the man was going to hell, he just didn't want him around until he cleaned up his act.

So when I consider how holy God is and how truly sinful all of us really are, I come to the conclusion that he is going to either accept all of us jerks who believe in him (not a universalist by any means) or will accept none. The quality of our belief and the degree to which we trust him and not our own works could very well be the acid test. Its so difficult for people to not try to add some pitiful works to the finished work of Christ to attempt to "insure" their salvation. In the end, that may be the failure to walk the "narrow path" and enter into the "narrow gate" that Christ warned about. But there are a lot of genuine believers who follow the various "lordship doctrines" of faith plus works. I can't imagine that the grace of God is not big enough to cover their error if indeed they are in error.

I don't think we can find out all the answers this side of the grass.

Where is our good friend Hastings?

If he doesn't rise to take your bait, I'm gonna be worried about him!

I don’t think anyone can answer the highlighted part, not to mention all the other points you bring up. It seems everyone rests their laurels on the aspect of “Salvation through mercy” and don’t feel they need to act responsibly, claiming you are saved by mercy and acts are of no value…

How many Johns were there? You have the disciple John, John The Baptist, and John on the aisle of Patmos. All the same guy?

Paul started out as Saul. He was the biggest anti-Christian of his age. Then he saw the light and became one of God’s greatest spreaders of the word. He was imprisoned and tortured, but never lost his faith. A man to be admired and listened to.

Ron

Paul expanded on Jesus' words that we're saved by faith and faith alone. Jesus gave salvation to the thief on the cross, a guy who had NO fruit. Works don't get you into heaven. They determine what your position in heaven will be. We're given very little info on how that will work. Just keep this in mind:
You're better off cleaning toilets in heaven than being in the highest position in hell.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." - John 14:12. See also Numbers 11:24-30 and Mark 10:38-40. The verse that briefly caused me trouble was Colossians 1:24.

"What a Friend we Have in Jesus."

I certainly rest in my belief that my salvation is through mercy. I do some "good" things, people tell me what a "good fella" I am, but I know the truth which is that compared to Jesus Christ I am pond scum and any genuine good work that I do is him working through me in spite of me. If I am brutally honest with myself, my "good works" are tinged with pride, self affirmation, or seeking the favor of men. Then five minutes later, I'll screw up some way....probably see Biden on TV and get pissed off when I should be trusting God to take care of things. So, If I get a "reward" or "position" in heaven above "cleaning toilets" it too will be because of grace.

The Best! to You good man! Heal FAST!!!

I saw your Yacht anchored in Boston Harbor.