24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,619
RevMike Offline OP
Campfire Guide
OP Offline
Campfire Guide
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,619
Gents:

I've often wondered about a rifle that simply won't shoot a particular bullet or bullet weight well. There is a thread right now in the reloading forum about shooting the 140gr TSX in the 7x57, and BSA responded, in part, "It" - the rifle - "may just not like those Barnes." I'm sure we've all had rifle bullet combinations about which we can say the same thing.

A lot is written about finding optimal charge weights, COALs, etc., in load development: all very true. But if a rifle still doesn't shoot a particular bullet very well, is it really that the barrel and bullet are incompatible, or is it that the load recipe just isn't working? In other words, is it possible to force a barrel to "like" a particular bullet by simply changing one or more of the load components (i.e., powder, case, primer)?

RM


“I’ve never known an outdoorsman who owned all the gear he thought he needed. Even if he owns it, the odds are that he can’t find it.” -- Charlie Dickey
BP-B2

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,442
F
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
F
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,442
In spite of all the advances in the shooting world, tech, gear, manufacturing, I suspect there is a LOT we don't know about what actually happens between the time the primer ignites and the bullet leaves the crown. We have all seen quotes from some of our best barrelmakers in the world, something on the order of, "there is no telling whether a given barrel will shoot or not, until you shoot it" or something along those lines. In my opinion, the famous "Houston Warehouse" tests wasn't so much about verifying what we know as telling us there is a lot we don't know...yet. Also, in my opinion, there is a physical/mathematical/engineering reason why a certain barrel seems to not like a certain bullet...we just don't have the money, motivation or determination to research it in depth. My 7x57 BRNO may be the rifle you refer to above...it has always been a problem child, my first guess is it has some built in stresses in the barrel itself that cause strange harmonic anomalies. I have tried to shoot at least 4 rather elaborate ladder tests with it and it still defies a rational diagnosis. But it's mine, and I'm going to live with it.


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,207
G
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
G
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,207
I gave up a long while back on a 1957 model 70 in 270. I’m a Nosler guy from head to toe. It’s my go to bullet. I picked this rifle up from my lgs and saw it was pillar bedded correctly, floated just fine. I loaded up H4831 SC and 140 grain ballistic tips , yawned, and went to the range to see if she was going to give me half inch groups or three quarter inch groups like my other pre 64’s.

I got 2 1/2” groups, with two shots here @ 1/2” and two shots @ 1/2”, 2 1/2” apart. Two years of experimenting with different powders, rebedding 3x, three scopes. Nothing changed. She was trying to tell me she hated Noslers and I was too stubborn to listen.

I had a box of TTSX’s laying there and just for kicks, before I sent her down the road, I sat em on top of 58.5 gr of H-4831sc. You know what’s next in this story I know…

Quarter inch groups.


I also had a custom 700 300 RUM rebarreled to 300 Win mag as I was tired of getting beat up at the range. The KDF muzzle brake had zero effect on recoil. It was fierce. New Bartlein barrel installed. Broke it in and wondered which Nosler it wanted. 165 grain or 180’s? Neither. Two inch groups out of a new benchrest barrel. After it was apparent this rifle too didn’t like Noslers I tried TTSXs and she liked them too. But she absolutely loves Sierra Gamechanger @ 165 grain. Bugholes.

If a rifle doesn’t like your choice of bullet I immediately think “scope”. If the scope proves ok, I look at bullets, assuming the bedding is ok.


You only live once, but...if you do it right, once is enough.
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 402
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 402
Just a simple hick from the sticks opinion, but here goes…I get what you’re trying to say by “force”, but not sure that’s the right word. In my meager opinion, load development isn’t forcing anything, it’s merely a process to eliminate, or more to the point, minimize as many variables as possible while finding the exact combination of components to maximize accuracy in that particular rifle. In reality, if you’re chasing tiny groups, all the variables…rifle, every aspect of said rifle, every component, weather, elevation, etc, etc, etc, is actually forcing YOU to find the “sweet spot”. If you change a load and the rifle shoots better, you’ve adjusted or minimized the variables to a level more suited to that rifle. In your mind, you maybe think you’ve “forced” the rifle to “like” that load. I’m sure if rifles could think and talk, they would laugh at the notion you’ve “forced them to like a new load recipe”. If a rifle doesn’t shoot a particular recipe or bullet well, and you can narrow it down essentially to the rifle barrel twist and bullet weight/style not working well for your acceptable accuracy level, in my opinion, it’s a fool’s mission to continue trying to get 3/8” groups out of an incompatible bullet/recipe choice for that rifle. Might not be worth a plug nickel, but just my meager opinion. 😎

Doc_Holidude


Livin ain’t killed me yet, but it’s workin on it!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 55,421
M
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 55,421
Mike,

I have seen the accuracy of a specific bullet change enormously with a change in powder, and also seen the accuracy of a given bullet/powder combination change enormously with a change in primer. But have decided the case doesn't matter much IF it's dimensionally consistent, especially neck thickness.

Have used a bunch of bullets to hunt various kinds of animals from small varmints to 1500-pound big game, and have my preferences. But generally I don't try to "force" a rifle to shoot a particular bullet well, partly because there are so many good alternatives these days.

But I also get to test far more different bullets than the average hunter, and usually have plenty of options on hand--which is why my big game load development often starts with a less-expensive bullet I know should shoot well, such as a Hornady Spire Point or Sierra GameKing, of about the same weight as the "premium" bullet I plan to use. Once I determine what powder and charges the Hornady or Sierra shoots best with, I switch to the more expensive bullet. Most of the time that works--and I end up with both a sight-in/practice/"deer" load and a load for bigger game, which usually shoot to the same place at 100 yards.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
IC-A B3

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,838
S
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
S
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,838
There is a helpful chapter in Gack II on this subject. I know you have a copy, Rev.


'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffet)

SotG
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,619
RevMike Offline OP
Campfire Guide
OP Offline
Campfire Guide
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,619
Originally Posted by Son_of_the_Gael
There is a helpful chapter in Gack II on this subject. I know you have a copy, Rev.

I absolutely do. Thanks for the heads-up.

And thanks all for the comments.


“I’ve never known an outdoorsman who owned all the gear he thought he needed. Even if he owns it, the odds are that he can’t find it.” -- Charlie Dickey
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,207
G
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
G
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,207
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Mike,

I have seen the accuracy of a specific bullet change enormously with a change in powder, and also seen the accuracy of a given bullet/powder combination change enormously with a change in primer. But have decided the case doesn't matter much IF it's dimensionally consistent, especially neck thickness.

Have used a bunch of bullets to hunt various kinds of animals from small varmints to 1500-pound big game, and have my preferences. But generally I don't try to "force" a rifle to shoot a particular bullet well, partly because there are so many good alternatives these days.

But I also get to test far more different bullets than the average hunter, and usually have plenty of options on hand--which is why my big game load development often starts with a less-expensive bullet I know should shoot well, such as a Hornady Spire Point or Sierra GameKing, of about the same weight as the "premium" bullet I plan to use. Once I determine what powder and charges the Hornady or Sierra shoots best with, I switch to the more expensive bullet. Most of the time that works--and I end up with both a sight-in/practice/"deer" load and a load for bigger game, which usually shoot to the same place at 100 yards.


I used MD’s advice years ago with my Sako 338 and it worked wonders. 225 grain North Forks were my chosen bullet to be used on elk. He was kind enough to suggest a 225 grain Hornady spire point and it was quickly evident that the rifle loved RL-19. When I arrived at the powder weight the Sako preferred, I loaded NF’s. Same point of impact and velocity was a close match as well. 0.4” four shot group from the NF’s. Ain’t messed with the load recipe from that point forward.


You only live once, but...if you do it right, once is enough.
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,639
P
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
P
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,639
35 yrs ago I got my first Swedish Mauser. Made in early 40s. The model with the 24 inch barrel. It was my initial journey into hand loading since there was so little factory ammo for it. Norma was it. So I read everything I could get my hands on and went after it. I wanted to shoot the 129gr Honesty. Got a supply and 2or 3 appropriate powders. I struggled to make it shoot. Nothing I did seemed to work. 3-4 inch groups seemed to be the norm. About this time I heard about the Hercules Reloaded series. I got a can of 15. Groups immediately shrunk to an inch or less. I later got some 19 and accuracy was the same with a little more speed. The strange thing about this rifle is as long as I use 19, it does not matter what brand of bullet I use. I recently have changed to the 140gr SST. Does fine with 19. I have had this rifle longer than any and most likely will never leave.


Society of Intolerant Old Men. Rifle Slut Division
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,437
Campfire Guide
Offline
Campfire Guide
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,437
I have a P64 375H&H that will shoot sub MOA groups with any bullet tried except 250's.
Also my M700 in 06 doesn't seem to like 165's except Barnes. Rifles are weird.


I am continually astounded at how quickly people make up their minds on little evidence or none at all.
Jack O'Connor
IC-B B4

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,207
G
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
G
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,207
Originally Posted by Blacktailer
I have a P64 375H&H that will shoot sub MOA groups with any bullet tried except 250's.
Also my M700 in 06 doesn't seem to like 165's except Barnes. Rifles are weird.
Might be why they are referred to in the feminine gender at times,


You only live once, but...if you do it right, once is enough.
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,619
RevMike Offline OP
Campfire Guide
OP Offline
Campfire Guide
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,619
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
But generally I don't try to "force" a rifle to shoot a particular bullet well, partly because there are so many good alternatives these days.

One of the reasons I started this thread is because I have seven or eight unopened boxes of 154-gr Interlocks, and one of my favorite hunting rifles scatters that bullet all over the place. I really want to use them in that rifle and am hoping to just tweak the powder and/or primer to get them to shoot, but we will see.

Thanks again for all the comments.


“I’ve never known an outdoorsman who owned all the gear he thought he needed. Even if he owns it, the odds are that he can’t find it.” -- Charlie Dickey
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 868
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 868
Originally Posted by RevMike
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
But generally I don't try to "force" a rifle to shoot a particular bullet well, partly because there are so many good alternatives these days.

One of the reasons I started this thread is because I have seven or eight unopened boxes of 154-gr Interlocks, and one of my favorite hunting rifles scatters that bullet all over the place. I really want to use them in that rifle and am hoping to just tweak the powder and/or primer to get them to shoot, but we will see.

Thanks again for all the comments.

Think animating a rifle is a simple-minded practice.

A rifle... does not like or dislike.

How:
- The bullet exits the case.
- The bullet enters the rifling.
- The bullet exits the muzzle.
- The muzzle gas affects the bullet.
- The muzzle motion/position affects the bullet.

Any or all may be a problem.
The problem could be bullet/cartridge/firearm.

Observation/Investigation/Innovation.




GR

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 39,848
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 39,848
I've noticed a lot of guys spend a lot of time, effort and money trying to get a rifle to shoot well, when said rifle is not set up properly. Do that from the get go and all else is cake walk.. This schidt really isn't as hard as most of you make it out to be..


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.

Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
P


BSA
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,619
RevMike Offline OP
Campfire Guide
OP Offline
Campfire Guide
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,619
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
I've noticed a lot of guys spend a lot of time, effort and money trying to get a rifle to shoot well, when said rifle is not set up properly. Do that from the get go and all else is cake walk.. This schidt really isn't as hard as most of you make it out to be..

In the case of this particular rifle it's bedded (properly), scope mounts are solid, the old VX Leupold holds zero, the bench from which I test loads is rock solid, and the bags/rests are good to go. It will shoot three touching with 175-gr bullets, and the ten shot targets look like some of the ones you've posted. But I don't want to shoot 175s all the time, and would really like to shoot up some of these 154s since I have so many of them. But it sprays them over three inches at 100 yards with a couple of different recipes. Hence my question about wondering if it's the bullet that is simply incompatible or the recipe that needs to be tweaked.


“I’ve never known an outdoorsman who owned all the gear he thought he needed. Even if he owns it, the odds are that he can’t find it.” -- Charlie Dickey
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,758
M
Campfire Guide
Offline
Campfire Guide
M
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,758
Were it me, I would reference loads from several manuals and pick ones using powders I have on hand.

Load up some test loads at near max load posted and shoot all at same session to see if anything jumps out.

I almost always start with around .030" jump at ground zero, but I am about to do a test with loads at .010, .050,.090, and .130"
jump using same powder and bullets. We'll see what that tells me.


"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
Albert Einstein

At Khe Sanh a sign read "For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected never knew".
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,156
C
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
C
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,156
I have one of the most accurate rifles I've ever owned in a Tikka T3 Lite in 9.3 X 62. It shoots every bullet I've tried from the 232gr Oryx to the 320gr Woodleigh - sub MOA for all at max velocities, except the 270gr Speer. I've tried the usual "tricks", but nothing I've done gives better results than 2" groups of three @ 100 yards. It's very consistent with its 2" groups! Good enough for relatively close hunting but I have other bullets that can do that "way out there"!

I've wasted too much time, energy and $ so far on one bullet! No need to waste more of the same - anyone want the few remaining, they're a complete waste of my time, effort and expense! Sometimes we just need to cut our losses and move on!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul" - Jesus

Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 559
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 559
Changing quantity of powder, type of powder, seating depth, neck tension and primers will often get a particular bullet to shoot well in any particular barrel. However, in some situations you may not be able to get the bullet to shoot well no matter what recipe you use, because the particular bullet may not be compatible with the type of rifling, the exact bore dimensions across the lands and also the grooves, the lead angles etc.

Last edited by Riflehunter; 06/29/22.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9,550
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9,550
My 7x57 hated corelokts and the 150 gr. Sierra Gameking, shot great with the 140 and the 160 GK's.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 55,421
M
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 55,421
Mike,

It also might be a bad batch of bullets--though if that particular lot has shot well in other rifles that's unlikely.

One thing I learned when fooling with a Juenke machine for a couple of years is that not only do bullets vary in "balance" from lot to lot, but can be damaged enough in shipping to result in decidedly mixed accuracy.

Though the problem certainly can be a specific bullet not matching well with a rifle's chamber/throat/barrel. Which is why when I find a certain bullet not responding to trying different variables (powder, seating depth, and even primer) I tend to move on. There are too many good bullets these days to keep trying and getting the same results. Though I do tend to have more different bullets on hand than most handloaders--generally at least a dozen and often twice that many in any caliber.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  RickBin, SYSOP 

Link Copied to Clipboard
CTV-TRX
Who's Online Now
98 members (35, 1OntarioJim, 405joe, 10gaugemag, 4and1, 9 invisible), 828 guests, and 743 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RR2/3-22

UDG-IP









Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2022 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.049s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.9545 MB (Peak: 1.1263 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2022-08-14 09:51:18 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS