Home Forums Reloading Handgun Reloading Accuracy Load Devlopment in Handguns...

Very familar with rifle load development, where I increment loads in .4 of a grain increments for standard and .6 of a grain for maganums as well as I use 10/1000 of the lands for everything but Barnes where I use 60/1000 but obviously handguns are different.

So do you increment in .2 of a grain? do you play with seating depth -if not what do you do with COAL - just use the crimping groove? what if there is no crimping groove just use the book?

Going to be loading 45 long colt.

I start about mid range and do .2-.3 gr increments and when get something I like I do .1 gr increments on each side of it. This would be with faster burning powders. With 2400, I do .5 gr increments. With H110, I use the suggested load on the container. Since I mostly shoot handgun and lever gun,I crimp on the groove. H110 calls for heavy crimp.

45 ACP and 9mm, I use the book COAL

If you use a traditional RNFP like the Lyman 454190 that doesn't have a crimping groove go with book COAL and crimp on the ogive. Either a roll crimp or a taper crimp will work. I've used a .45acp taper crimp die successfully - I'm cheap and already had one on hand for .45acp. I've loaded SWCs in .45 Colt by just crimping in the groove.

I've never loaded jacketed bullets and slower-burning powder in .45 Colt. With the faster powders like 231, Titegroup, or Green Dot with cast bullets I started at about 75% of max. and increased not more than .5 gr at a time.

I would suggest that the increase in powder weight would be dependent upon the burn rate of the powder used……faster powders in smaller increments. And of course, smaller increments with any powder, when nearing listed maximum loads!

Even with the large case capacity of my 460 S&W using slower powders, I get conservative with my increases when nearing max loads……0.2 or 0.3 grain steps.


Another step I use when developing a maximum load, rifle or handgun, is to reach maximum on a hot day! I don’t want any surprises of a hot day, when doing future shooting! I generally test for maximum pressure limits on 90+ F days. In fact, will be doing exactly that with my 460 pretty soon! memtb

Any discussion of the 45 Colt should start with a reading from John Linebaugh’s epistle to the faithful (https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings):


Those are the words of the master. Scroll to the end of it to see his favorite loads.

Not sure which gun you’re using, but 45 Colt revolvers and ammo are classed in four tiers:

Tier I = Colt SAA and clones, which top out at 14,000 psi. It’s easy to handload a 250-grain SWC or LFN to 1,000 fps at this level, but factory ammo is all over the map. You might find something like that load, or you might only find a load with a pointy 180-grain bullet at 600 fps that will barely stay on a pie plate at 25 yards. If you have to rely on factory ammo, then test, make careful notes, and buy in bulk so you don’t run out.

Tier II = S&W Model 25 and Ruger Flat Tops, which top out around 23,000 psi. This is a 250-grain jacketed bullet at 1,100 fps, a 280-grain cast bullet at 1,150 fps, or a 318-grain cast bullet at 1,070 fps. Brian Pearce has written excellent articles about handloading to this level in Handloader magazine, most notably in April, 2007. You’ll need those articles, though, because no factory loads this ammo and loading manuals don’t cover it specifically.

Tier III = Ruger New Model Blackhawks (NOT Flat Tops or New Vaqueros), Redhawks, Freedom Arms 97, and similar guns. These top out around 32,000 psi. You can buy this ammo over the counter. It’s expensive and recoil is fierce, but they match the hottest 44 Magnum loads with slightly less pressure. Most sources of loading data call this “45 Colt +P” or “Ruger/TC only.” These loads can destroy a Tier I or Tier II revolver, so many—but not all—of them are intentionally built too long to fit into the cylinder of an SAA or clone.

Tier IV = custom five-shot guns with longer than standard cylinders, which top out around 50,000 psi. These are a handload-only proposition and the gunmaker will provide data. I had a couple of these guns built by David Clements, and they’ll move a 325-grain bullet an honest 1,400 fps. My guns were superbly accurate. Recoil is astonishing.

I find that getting accurate, powerful loads for the 45 Colt is easy, but powder charge is the least of my worries. Cast bullets meet all of my needs so I don’t have much experience with jacketed bullets. For accuracy, I prefer a square-based SWC like https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-colt-rcbs-82092-270gr-saa/ or https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-colt-lyman-452424-255gr-swc-k/

Bevel-based SWCs like this one https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/-45-lc-255-gr-swc-per-500.html are easy to cast quickly so they’re cheaper. They can be pretty accurate (certainly enough for practice) if you keep them under 1,000 fps AND use a fast-burning powder, but square-based designs usually outshoot them, especially in hotter loads. Gas-check designs tend to be very accurate but they’re also the most expensive.

8-9 grains of Unique, a standard pistol primer, a SWC of 250-280 grains, and a proper roll crimp should give you around 900 fps. This load is a good place to start, and it may be the place you stop. It will clobber a deer, it’s accurate enough for small game, and recoil is mild. It’s also safe in a Colt SAA or clone.

If that doesn’t work, then double check to see that the cylinder throats are 0.001” over bore diameter and that bullets match the throat diameter. Then make sure that your alloy is the right hardness for the level of pressure that you’re running.

Brian Pearce has written several excellent articles on handloading for the 45 Colt and goes deep into the differences between the levels of strength that various guns offer. They’re definitely worth a read.


Okie John

Let me add some info and ask the question again.

I will be using solid copper slugs, copper is required where I will be hunting. In a New Model stainless Blackhawk 4 5/8"


1. Do you have any process for developing an accurate load related to powder charge?

2. Do you have any process for developing an accurate load related to COAL?

If the answe to Q1 and Q2 is "no", then what do you do to find an accurate load or do you just use "published favorite loads" from the internet.

For me, the answer to both questions is no, but I have done research and preliminary tests with the Barnes 200-grain XPB 45 Colt ammo in a Ruger Flat Top 45 Colt and a Ruger New Model Blackhawk, both with 5 ½” barrels. I didn’t chronograph it, but Barnes claims 1,025 fps. 25-yard groups in both guns were excellent. Recoil was about like a 38 Special.

Brian Pearce has written good articles about the 45 Colt with Barnes bullets in the December/January 2012 and December 2006 issues of Handloader magazine. IIRC, the 2006 article goes into depth on XPBs, including the effect of chambers and throats on accuracy.

I see three things of note in the Barnes data:
1. Their 45 Colt data only lists the 225-grain bullet and their 454 Casull data only lists the 250-grain bullet. The top velocity for the 225 is 1,500 fps, but the slowest for the 250 is 1,550 fps. I read that to say that their 250-grain bullet probably won’t open at 30k psi 45 Colt velocities. As a rule, Barnes revolver bullets perform about like standard bullets that are 30% heavier, so the 225 should work about like a 300-grain bullet.
2. It states “Roll crimp the case mouth into the cannelure.” That should settle the COAL issue. Crimp is a huge factor in revolver accuracy. For starters, it has to be even and consistent. Taper crimps are OK for autos but revolvers need a roll crimp because bullets that aren't crimped enough can slip forward and tie up the gun. The harder the load kicks, the more crimp you need. The Lee Factory Crimp Die is the gold standard.
3. It states, “The Barnes #45120 225-grain XPB bullet has a slight taper on the base…”. I recall, maybe from Pearce’s 2006 article, that this taper caused accuracy issues in the 45 Colt, especially if bore and throat diameters are on the large side.

Other Notes
• I found a lot of good information at calguns.net and on the Ruger forums.
• I read somewhere that Cor-Bon’s 225-grain DPX 45 +P Colt load uses the Barnes the 225-grain XPB at 1,200 fps in 45 Colt. That may be the only load you can find in California or other lead-free country, so it might be a good idea to know how it works in your guns in case the airline loses your ammo bag.

Let me know if you have other questions.


Okie John

This may be particularly important with solid copper bullets, but it's important with them all.

Remove your Blackhawk cylinder.
Take a few of your Solid Barnes bullets you plan to hunt with.
Check to see if you can push all those bullets through all six of your chamber throats.

They should be able to be pushed through with finger pressure- no driving required. A snug fit is better than falling through. If they won't go through, you need to have your cylinder honed or reamed so they will fit. This is a $40- $60 job so it's not going to break the bank.

Please let us know how the Barnes bullets fit your cylinder throats.

Cheers,
Rex

TRexF16,

I understand what you are saying but what is causing you to say it? Is .451 not .451? Also, .45 colt brass is spec'd at .480 OD that over 14/100 of clearance per side.

Hi Mike,
There can be significant variance between bore sizes and cylinder throat sizes. Normally the OD of the case is a non-factor so don't worry about that.
The "chamber" part of the cylinder is rarely the problem - it's usually the throats.
It is not uncommon for the cylinder throats (the part forward of where the case fits, that the bullet has to pass through when fired) to be tighter than the barrel's bore. When this is the case, the bullet gets swaged down to less than bore diameter when it passes through the cylinder throats, and then enters the barrel undersized relative to the bore.
My stainless .45 LC blackhawk was like this, and I had to open up all the throats. Same with a .32 H&R Single Six I just got. The bore is .312-.3125", but the throats are no more than .311". I also just got a NIB 50th anniversary .357 Blackhawk. The bore it .357 to a hair over. A mic'ed .358" rifle bullet will just barely fit into three of the cylinder throats, has to be forced into the 4th, and won't go at all into the remaining two. It and the .32 H&R are off getting honed right now.

So have you checked the fit of a representative sample of your Barnes solids versus your cylinder's throats? They're probably fine, but if not, you'll never get your best accuracy until they slip through without being swaged down.

Best of luck,
Rex

This guy can ream cylinder throats: https://fermincgarza.com/

He did a great job on my New Model Blackhawk. You send him the cylinder, he measures it. If it needs work, then he does it and charges you. I think it was around $30 plus shipping when I had it done a few years back. If it doesn't need work, then he sends it back and all you pay for is shipping.


Okie John

TRexF16,

1st - call me ignorant, I had no idea that there could be that much change in the chamber "throating'.

2nd - I am using Maker bullets instead of Barnes and lo and behold - not a single one will pass thru any of the six chmabers even when pushing firmly with the back of a pencil.




Okie john,

Thanks for the tip.

I just had Doug Phillips of Henderson NC work the throats on my S&W 460. He is very highly recommended by many over on the CastBoolit forum. Many of those guys are very serious about getting everything they can from their revolvers! memtb

Doug is who has my two cylinders right now,
Rex

You're welcome. Getting those throats honed to be in the right relationship with your bullets and your bore might be the best thing you can do in the interest of "Accuracy Load Development." Without doing so I fear you'll just be burning powder and bullets in vain.

Best of luck with it - please keep posting to this thread as your project unfolds to share lessons learned.

Cheers,
Rex

Cylinder is on its way to Fermin Garza and the Sightron I recieved was defective. So there may be a delay but I will update this thread as I progress.

Ready for load development

Nice setup.

If recoil becomes a problem, then switch back to the original wood grips and wear a lightweight leather glove.


Okie john

Loaded 15.0, 15.3,15.6, 15.9, and 16.2 of Accurate #9. Best was 15.3 and 15.6. I think I pulled the low shot on 15.6. Could not get the Labradar to track the pistol bullet. Not sure why, but no velocity numbers.

Am going to go with 15.4 because 15.0 was not any good. Note the groups are centered in almost the same spot relative to POA

Nice shooting. What bullet weight are you using? How do the groups look when you shoot a full cylinder?


Okie John