Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Sir Jerry,
Romantic Devil You! lol!!!
Nice work, and thanks to R.I.P., for posting the pics. Your ready Good Sir.
Stay in Tune and Healthy!
Good Luck!

Nearly 5 years ago my resurgence of handloading the .458 WinMag
included the North Fork 450-grain "FP Solid" since I had a bunch on hand.
I had previously decided that bullet and all the North Fork 450-grainers were
most fun in a .450 Dakota at either 2450 fps or 2600 fps.
So, when Mike Brady offered his remaining stock of the original OFP solids at a discount
when he sold North Fork, I jumped on them.

In Chimera WinCZechster, a Pre-'64 M70 with 24-7/8" CZ barrel, at 58*F:

450-grain NF-OFP in Hornady brass, GM215M primer, 3.480" COL:
76.0 to 81.0 grains of both H4895 and AA-2230 were tried,
with MV ranging from 2292 fps to 2411 fps.
Most accurate load was 79.0 grains of H4895 >>> 2335 FPS and 0.52 MOA for 3 shots.

I propose to try 77.0 grains of H4895 and COL of 3.340" for a SAAMI compliant load,
sure to beat 2300 fps in a 24" barrel.
Then work up some .458 WM+ loads.

I have not tried compressed H4895 with the 404-gr Shock Hammer. Need too.

Ron,
In Africa, they NF bullets were the 450 grain FPS.

In Texas on Water buff, it was 300 grain .411 CPS at 2250 fps. One shot at 45 yards tore up both shoulders and the front part of chest contents(made a bloody mess of the front end of the buff ) and it hit the ground dead - so limp that the head bounced!.
That was a tough old beast, so we had to grind it into ground meat , but it was tasty!

Aw shucks, Sir Charles,

All four generations of the FN bullets from North Fork were called "FPS" for "Flat Point Solid,"
so you gotta help me out here by recalling which of the four you had, please.
I like them all !

Through the grapevine, I hear that there are dealers in Canada that may be getting Hammer Bullets.
We can only hope they make it to Toronto where Sir Bob can find some.

Also, at .458Win, Sir Phil, some clarification of this is needed:

"[Addressee name deleted] ... if you talk with the professional ballisticians for the ammo companies, the guys with both the knowledge and equipment to measure pressures, you will find out that there is only around 60-80 fps difference in velocity between the Winchester and the Lott when loaded to equal pressures."

Surely Sir Phil misspoke.
When the .458 Winchester Magnum is loaded to SAAMI standards with a 500-grain bullet at 3.340" COL and 60,000 psi
and the .458 Lott is loaded to SAAMI standards with same 500-grain bullet (and whatever powder) at 3.600" COL and 62,500 PSI,
there is only about 50 fps advantage to the .458 Lott,
with both in same 24" barrel length.

Sir Phil's "60-80 fps" was not so far off, but his error in saying same pressure was way off.

If the .458 WinMag is allowed same pressure as the .458 Lott, and same COL, it will absolutely beat the .458 Lott.

Even the SAAMI "governed" .458 WM will easily do 2200 fps with 500-grainer in 24" barrel, with less than 60,000 psi,
and with less powder burned, and less recoil than the .458 Lott doing the same.
Sweet.
THROAT THROAT THROAT
And no accuracy flies on its sweetness.

In the cause of defending the brotherhood and the fairness inherent in our Knighthood;
Phil did not say which direction the 60-80 fps difference in the 458wm and the 458 Lott was...

"...you will find out that there is only around 60-80 fps difference in velocity between the Winchester and the Lott when loaded to equal pressures."
Long live the King 458WM and Long live Old Ugly!
F01

Sir Dennis,
Very diplomatic of you, and it is a more realistic comparison to boot.
Buy a donkey.

SAAMI .458 WinMag, 3.340" COL or less, 60K psi or less, 24" barrel, WW-Super or Hornady brass:

500-gr Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid ... 2200 fps
450-gr North Fork FPS or Barnes TSX ... 2300 fps
404-gr Hammer Bullets Shock Hammer ... 2400 fps

Add 200 fps across the board for the .458 WM+ and beat the .458 Lott, if both are allowed up to 3.600" COL and 62,500 psi.

Neat trick:
Establish loads in WW-Super or Hornady brass for 3.450" COL,
then transfer same loads to Norma brass for .458 WinMag at 3.350" COL.
Very close to same effective case capacity with both cases,
and both loads are still .458 WM+ in both cases, pun intended.
The Norma-cased loads will fit in a blocked-box M70 or standard Mauser, etc.

Top .458 WM+ loads with any bullets will be obtained by using the greater-capacity Norma brass
and proper COL and proper powder at proper compression for just right pressure.
To be continued.

Thank you Sir. I appreciate the comment. Thinking back over the last few years, I have read more of your work than of any other when I look in the “reading for pleasure “ category. Pleasure reading for me must contain both good writing and truth. You have provided both in full measure.
No elephants found on the Great Plains again this year but the Whitworth is eager for fall and a Plains game hunt for the pot.
Shalom to the Brotherhood.
F01

Cranky Rifleman,
The FPS bullets were the #5 in your picture. The ones with the many fine line/grooves.

I bought a good supply of the .411 and .458 for my rifles some years ago and since it takes only one shot per critter, I still have some left for both rifles.

I am also having fun with the 350 SS in my .458 DR as they make a very accurate and deadly combo. When the temperature drops below 90 degrees in Texas, I will shoot more and bigger critters.

Sir Charles the Clarifier,

Thanks for being more specific. Gen-3 FPS it was then.
Good to hear that the truncated-cone-FN-copper solids pass through elephant and buffalo with such ease.
I think they would all be quite sufficient in a .45-90 at 2150 fps, Gen-1, -2, -3, or -4 of North Fork FPS.
They will all track straight and be within a few inches of each other, for where they stop in the toughest test media,
when propelled by the mighty .458 Winchester Magnum.
Also, that would be a pass through on broadside body or any angle head of any game,
except maybe blue whale.

Interesting bit of trivia from Giles & Shuey, page 153:
"Winchester High Velocity (WHV) loadings were introduced in this caliber [45-90 WCF]
in 1903 in Soft Point only. The Full Metal Patch (FMJ) offering was added in 1905 and such boxes are rare.
Interestingly, Great Britain used the M86 with 45-90 WHV rounds to shoot down German observation balloons in WWI."

Those .458-caliber, 300-gr., RN FMJ were somehow more adequate for WWI observation balloons than a 303 British ?
Bigger hole must have made them deflate faster.
Sort of like why one should use a .458 instead of lesser calibers for hunting.

Regarding penetration of solids, the science of McCourry Institute of Ballistics (MIB)
has appeared at multiple sites on the internet.
About time it was repeated here.
Michael McCourry, aka Doc M of MIB, wrote as follows:

There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance…..

#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber
Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable…. Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s…… From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality rifles……….

#2 Nose Profile
There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more… Not all of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all…. John at North Fork agrees, and in their work there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD……..

#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field….. A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas…. Brass is harder than Copper… No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well…….. So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors….. A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.

#4 Nose Projection
Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time…. We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns… Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.

#5 Radius Edge of Meplat
We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end than a sharp edged radius…. No more to go into here, thats it…….

All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design……..

#6 Velocity
Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well……. Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme………. Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass…….. Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6………

#7 Barrel Twist Rate
Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT……. If the meplat of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower…… I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber stabilize with ZERO TWIST……. I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times…… If you are using a properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ…….

#8 Sectional Density
Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet……. My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission…………

These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work, and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field, many many times over…… These are the 8 Known Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid Bullets……………..

As great as the Hornady DGX-Bonded 480-gr./.458-cal. appears to be,
here is a disturbing report on a 500-gr DGX fired from Hornady factory ammo,
known to be accurate and 2140 fps in a 24"-barreled .458 WinMag.
Also from Doc M of MIB who copied from another site:

"This was posted on African Hunting, actually by a fellow in India I believe that is a Game Warden or whatever they call it…………
Animal control or what have you……………. He seems to be a fairly reasonable chap from what I have read……"

UPDATE , 14th November 2020 : Hornady 500 grain DGS
( Dangerous Game Solid ) meplat nose copper clad steel
jacketed solids ( used in .458 Winchester Magnum factory
loads ) are completely unsuited for frontal brain shots on
rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bulls .
Gross deformation and bullet failure experienced at 30 yard
range , on seven ton rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bull .
Animal had to be downed with borrowed .303 British
( standard forest department issue Lee Enfield ) and 215 grain
meplat nosed nickel clad steel jacketed solids ( East Bengal
Ordinance Factories production loading ) .
Suggestions for improvement : Bonding steel jacket to alloy
core , increasing jacket thickness , enclosing bullet’s rear end
with steel jacket .
Personal note : Extremely disappointed . Genuinely was
under the impression that Hornady had improved the
construction of all their bullets . Based on above experience ,
the Hornady DGS cannot be recommended for shoulder
shots on Gaur bulls either .



Riflecrank comments on the above:
I hope that the reportedly pictured DGS above has been subsequently improved by Hornady,
like with thicker steel meplat and jacket, maybe bonding of lead core too, like they improved the DGX to DGX-Bonded.
The color in the image above makes the bullet look like the previous attempt by Hornady,
a brass-encapsulated, round-nosed, lead-cored "FMJ Solid" they called the "Encapsulated Solid"
which was oxymoronic.
But it must be the lighting of the image.
That first DGS was a copper-washed, steel-jacketed, lead-cored, flat-nosed oxymoron of a solid.
The author from "Africa Hunting" surely described it accurately, even if his image was off-color,
as would be the verbiage from anyone thinking of using it for DG.
DGS becomes DG $#!T in their mind.

Anyone care to conjecture what the pressures might be,
of this ammo fired in a SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum ?
I know one thing for certain:
The pressure will be lower than when the same ammo is fired in a SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott.
Kids, don't try that at home without adult supervision.



That is from a 24" factory-barreled Ruger No. 1 at 80 degrees F.
Both loads with 83.0 grains of AA-2460.
500-gr TBSS at 3.550" COL,
450-gr TSX at 3.570" COL, just so as to be less than the .458 Lott max COL.
Either WW-Super or Hornady .458 WinMag brass may be used.
If you use Norma brass the COL may be shortened by 0.1",
thus 3.450" and 3.470" respectively,
which makes the Lottites even more envious.
That will fit inside the Sunny Hill drop box for a standard-length Mauser M-98, FN or Whitworth Mk X,
no weakening of action required.

I have Norma brass coming, I'm going to compress as much AA2230 as I can and see how fast I can push 450 TSX

Sir Ron,

My impression is (despite the report from African Hunting) that the bullet in the pic is the former "Encapsulated Solid", not the current DGS. My take is based on the fact that I have a box of those brass solids, and the color is identical to that one in the hand, and secondly, the rifle grooves in that bullet is the same color as the jacket. If it were the current DGS, the external coloration of the jacket material (thin copper) and steel groove should be different.

And, that would not be the first time I've found African Hunting (I'm a member) to be off base, or "behind the times" in reporting.

I just don't believe that the bullet in the photo is the current DGS. And is somebody "grinding an axe"?

Added: And that appears to be an outdated report. (Fixed irt from DGX to DGS)


Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I’ll take a poke at it sir. 62k psi or less.

Sir John,

Your choice of COL will be interesting.
I have not tried any 3.340" COL loads with that bullet.
Starting at about 70.0 grains of AA-2230 with COL of 3.340" would be most interesting.
My Long COL results:

Norma brass, F215 primer, 3.565" COL, 450-gr TSX, 3-shot averages starting with 80.0 grains AA-2230
in a Ruger No. 1 factory barrel, 24", 82*F, corrected to MV for BC = 0.369:

80.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2408 fps MV (second most accurate load)

84.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2464 fps MV (Most Accurate Load, a 50-yard bugholer)

85 and 86 grains gave less velocity, and only one shot with 86 grains was fired because the primer fell out of case on ejection.



Hornady brass, GM215M primer, 3.680" COL, 450-gr TSX,
in a Shilen 25" barrel on a CZ 550 Magnum, 42*F:

80.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2407 fps MV

82.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2448 fps MV (Most Accurate Load, 50-yard bugholer)

84.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2469 fps MV (scope loose after 36 rounds fired, this bullet and 350-gr TSX also being tested same day)


WW-Super brass, F215 primer, 3.570" COL, 450-gr TSX,
in same Ruger No. 1 factory barrel as above, 24", 80*F, LabRadar MV, average for 5 shots:

83.0 grains AA-2460 >>> 2459 fps MV (best 3 of 5 hasty shots landing at 100 yards were about 0.5 MOA on centers)

Lessons learned:

1. Check ring screws after every 20 rounds, at least, with kickers,
and silicone adhesive between scope and lower ring half (at least) is a good idea to prevent loosening.

2. Norma brass may be loaded to a COL of about 0.1" shorter than Hornady or WW-Super brass
to make roughly equivalent loads.

3. AA-2230 and AA-2460 both seem to have good ThermoBallisticStability, they are close to the same composition.
AA-2230 is just AA-2460 with some flattened balls to make it pack easier and burn a little faster.

4. 83.0 grains of AA-2460 in Norma brass at 3.460" COL might be ideal.

5. How much AA-2230 can be burned behind a 450-gr TSX at 3.340" COL in Norma brass with satisfactory results
is unknown to me, but needs to be discovered.

Sir Bob,

I agree !
No sign of a flat meplat remnant on that brass-colored bullet.
Apologies to Hornady . That ain't no DGS with steel jacket.