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"The Church's one foundation is Jesus Christ, the Lord."

Why would God set a system up that required such a thing in the first place? Seems rather stupid for someone else to have to suffer for another persons sins. Not to mention unfair. And since I wasn't even born at this time no one could have possibly died for a damn thing that I did. And spare me all that horse pucky about original sin. I was raised in a Church of God community. I am well aware of the brainwashed dogma. It makes no sense however to a rational mind.

I am not about to question God.

No one would if he showed up personally. But he never does. Just some HUMAN claiming to bring you the word of God. And there's your weak link in the chain.

He did show up; that’s the beauty of it. Sorry you’ve been embittered by your experience. Sounds like you’ve had your share of experience with original sin yourself.

What’s your alternative?

Keep in mind that without God there can be no good or evil, no Justice or “fairness” as you put it.

Everything just is what it is.

Yet you speak as a man with moral conviction.

From whence comes such conviction? To what objective reality outside yourself is it tied?

Genuine questions.

I was raised in the Church, rejected it, and lived accordingly for years. Started asking myself the questions above and couldn’t find a rational answer just “turtles upon turtles all the way down”.

He gave us humans, collectively, free will when He created us. We messed up, collectively, and chose to sin. We, collectively, still do. And it corrupted us and interferes with our ability to have fellowship with our Creator.

He requires a price to be paid for our collective sin (like it or not). But once that debt is paid, we can be reconciled to our Creator. He wants that. He created us because He wanted fellowship with us.

He made that reconciliation finally and fully possible through Jesus. Sacrifice is required by Him to pay the price for sin (like it or not). His own Son is the ultimate sacrifice that pays that debt, for all of us, and allows us reconciliation and fellowship with our Creator.

Forever.

If you’ve never done anything wrong in your entire adult life, then I can understand you bein’ pissed about it being unfair that you’re held accountable for somebody else’s sin (or that anybody else is held accountable for somebody else’s sin). But chances are that you’re in that ‘collective’ group of sinners with ‘all’ the rest of us.

All of us have been embittered by our experiences to some degree, some certainly more than others.

Good Night Kind folks, I need my beauty sleep.

God rules. Satan wishes to. We serve the purposes of one or the other. I always wished I could just be left out of it, live life, die, rot, the end. Still fine with that. But that is not a choice I have been given. The choice is to serve God, or be His enemy. Does the vessel ask the potter, “Why have you made me thus?” It’s not up to the vessel. I am what He made me. Flawed by my sins, of course, some of which I recognize as inherited behaviors from my predecessors. The fact that He is willing to accept me as I am is so significant, that it would be the height of stupidity to question His method of making me acceptable. He is God, who created all things, including me. One does not argue with the Creator Fear not he who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul. The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God…

strikeu,

Generally, yes.

To me, a "rational mind" seems like a very good thing - useful for sorting out even complex issues and solving difficult problems - and even resolving dilemmas. To me, questions seem to be a way of life - very valuable - and I could not fault anyone for questioning all sorts of things - including factors involving God, sin and salvation.

Limitations on the usefulness and effective results of such questioning and resulting rationality are formed by the fact that these actions are done by humans. Even at the human best there is the unfathomable, the biased, the failures of reasoning. Sometimes humans do all of this very well, but seem never to get it completely correct.

So, if a person's summaries and conclusions are conditioned according to the above, it seems like a closed loop - conclusions and explanations formed with limited knowledge and means. Is there not something beyond the reach of human rationality?

I wonder of those whose reasoning causes them to reject belief in a Creator and Supreme Being in control of all; those who do not experience the power and eternal hope flowing from faith in such a God; those who depend solely on human means to define all of creation and eternity. Is there a separate and distinct basis for the sustenance of their core beliefs and their vision beyond this lifetime? What is that - how is that described and defined?

The above is not based on the tenets or actions of some religious denomination or organization; not prompted by the espoused knowledge/position/predictions/behaviors of any preacher/evangelist/etc.; not directed or bound by some edition of written record. Carping or quibbling about bad experiences, stumbling blocks or dislikes involving human positions is not a suitable answer to the question. What is that alternative basis - how is it described and defined? Just curiously questioning.

For those who see Christianity as a crutch for fools or I also would like to know the alternative for the "rational mind".
For an outdoors forum, I'll submit this:
To look at the oceans, mountains, humans, birds,fish and amazing animals and so on and on and on, and then to say that it all just came together without an intelligent, all powerful creator doesn't make sense to my rational mind.
That would be like walking into a room and seeing the most amazing Lego creation you've ever seen and believing that the Lego box fell off a shelf and just landed that way. I' just can't buy it.