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The point of the original post was S&B's missing a measured FFP hunting reticle in a scope that should have it. I should have stayed on point. I've been using them for a very long time. I was pretty shocked when they upped there eye relief from 3.15 to 3.6. that was 20 years ago. They just don't respond to the market. I've talked to the guys in Virginia. The home office has been told what would fly off the shelf here. You don't see it . And you probably won't. It's just the way they roll. The fixed 10x PMII is excellent if you can live with ,10 power.. I've taken a shine to the fixed 8x56. But then I'm not clicken and dicken. Dave
![[Linked Image]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Logo_Schmidt_%26_Bender.jpg) Only accurate rifles are interesting.
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Campfire Regular
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If they do a 2-12 in this 6X magnification with a good, FFP reticle in it would seem to be a direct competitor the Helos BTR 2-12 (note the short mounting area forward of the turret) plus a throwback homage to the Weaver Multistop turret and 1/3rd of the elevation travel….but Euro glass! The weaver multistop turret… ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/Kj70N1xv/77-DA0-D62-C5-B6-43-A1-ACD9-393-BAF6-AA1-B0.jpg)
Don't speculate when you don't know, and don't second guess when you do.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
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Stick, please knock off this crap.
You have a lot to offer the readers here, but sniping at people you dislike just wastes what could have been an enjoyable thread. There's the joke of the day. About as much to offer as the demented moron in the white house. Offers mumbling bullschitt, 20 year old pictures, and the attitude of a lunatic woman with PMS. All the other forums booted his ass out forever. He kisses the moderators ass here, so gets the pass to pollute an otherwise decent page. Best thing he says is: ***you are ignoring this user***. Really pisses the NPD troll off. Fuqquing laffin Couldn't agree more......
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Ken,
Agree his language, and his "insults", may be "abrasive" to some, but his knowledge of schitt is open for everyone on here to absorb - language be darned.
About the only member who has helped, directly or otherwise, with my questions - get over the Fhuqking language, man!
Hint: Don't know you, or Stick. And, don't have the slightest interest in doing so. Like picking corn from a turd. I’ve never been that hungry…
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,480
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,480 |
Stick, please knock off this crap.
You have a lot to offer the readers here, but sniping at people you dislike just wastes what could have been an enjoyable thread. There's the joke of the day. About as much to offer as the demented moron in the white house. Offers mumbling bullschitt, 20 year old pictures, and the attitude of a lunatic woman with PMS. All the other forums booted his ass out forever. He kisses the moderators ass here, so gets the pass to pollute an otherwise decent page. Best thing he says is: ***you are ignoring this user***. Really pisses the NPD troll off. Fuqquing laffin Ken, Agree his language, and his "insults", may be "abrasive" to some, but his knowledge of schitt is open for everyone on here to absorb - language be darned. About the only member who has helped, directly or otherwise, with my questions - get over the Fhuqking language, man! Hint: Don't know you, or Stick. And, don't have the slightest interest in doing so. There are more than a few that have as much or more knowledge than he does. I've never needed any advice from him and have done just fine. YMMV
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Posts: 358
Campfire Member
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I've had a few other brands that have never lost zero or fail to track for a lot less money, a lot less. For example a Swaro PH 1.5x6X42 (same as the S&B) do exactly the same for less, then so have my (no longer manufactured ) Leupold (the horror) 1.75X6X 32 for a LOT less. Granted the S&B's glass is much better, but not at four times the price which is my point. Hell, I have some forty plus year old Weavers that I've never touched the adjustments. My only point is Swaros and many other Euroglass are just not worth the money. Most of their price has to do with labor coasts of course. They are if you do much hunting in very dim light... or darkness. We can legally hunt an hour after dark here. Most any scope is good in bright light. Most any $350 scope nowadays has glass that will get you to/past legal shooting light, including the Chicom stuff. A good reticle is just as important. This is true if legal is 30 minutes past and you’re in an open field. In the woods or where you can hunt later, there’s value in the S&B glass. At least that’s true for my eyes. Agreed that the reticle is just as important.
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Campfire Regular
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The point of the original post was S&B's missing a measured FFP hunting reticle in a scope that should have it. I should have stayed on point. I've been using them for a very long time. I was pretty shocked when they upped there eye relief from 3.15 to 3.6. that was 20 years ago. They just don't respond to the market. I've talked to the guys in Virginia. The home office has been told what would fly off the shelf here. You don't see it . And you probably won't. It's just the way they roll. The fixed 10x PMII is excellent if you can live with ,10 power.. I've taken a shine to the fixed 8x56. But then I'm not clicken and dicken. Dave They do pay attention to the market, but S&B is not a very large company and they take their time. I did ask them whether they plan to offer this model in FFP, but there are currently no plans to do so. That having been said, I still plan to test this one and I should be able to do so toward the end of the year. I think they are supposed to hit the market around SHOT Show of thereabouts, but I have a mule deer and elk hunts in November, so I am scheming to get one here in time for that. I would also prefer it in FFP, to be honest, but as is, it caught my interest because it is notably lighter that typical from S&B. I really want to see how well they pull it off. As far as whether they will ever make something like this in FFP, I would not discard it right out of hand. I think they can be persuaded if the market is there. Once I have it in my hands, and if I like the scope, I will look into it a little bit and see if I can make a good argument for them. Personally, I think the crossover market is there. A good example of that is the success of Vortex Razor HD-LHT 4.5-22x50. ILya
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,760
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,760 |
The point of the original post was S&B's missing a measured FFP hunting reticle in a scope that should have it. I should have stayed on point. I've been using them for a very long time. I was pretty shocked when they upped there eye relief from 3.15 to 3.6. that was 20 years ago. They just don't respond to the market. I've talked to the guys in Virginia. The home office has been told what would fly off the shelf here. You don't see it . And you probably won't. It's just the way they roll. The fixed 10x PMII is excellent if you can live with ,10 power.. I've taken a shine to the fixed 8x56. But then I'm not clicken and dicken. Dave They do pay attention to the market, but S&B is not a very large company and they take their time. I did ask them whether they plan to offer this model in FFP, but there are currently no plans to do so. That having been said, I still plan to test this one and I should be able to do so toward the end of the year. I think they are supposed to hit the market around SHOT Show of thereabouts, but I have a mule deer and elk hunts in November, so I am scheming to get one here in time for that. I would also prefer it in FFP, to be honest, but as is, it caught my interest because it is notably lighter that typical from S&B. I really want to see how well they pull it off. As far as whether they will ever make something like this in FFP, I would not discard it right out of hand. I think they can be persuaded if the market is there. Once I have it in my hands, and if I like the scope, I will look into it a little bit and see if I can make a good argument for them. Personally, I think the crossover market is there. A good example of that is the success of Vortex Razor HD-LHT 4.5-22x50. ILya Yes, the weight was one of the reasons it caught my eye. Lack of FFP and measured reticle made me look away. The "crossover market" of hunters who like to shoot, often and at distance, that you mentioned is an area that a lot of scope companies are missing. Different preferences for different people but the following should be a rough outline for the crossover market scope: 1. Reliable - perfect adjustments, return to zero, and zero retention. The ability to take a beating should be a given. 2. FFP 3. Measured reticle in mil's with adjustments in the same. Should be designed to be visible in low light with bold outer bars limited in width from center - no more than 5 mils from center. Inner sections fine enough for holds at distance. If illuminated, limited illuminated area with extremely low illumination for use in low light. Overall, illumination shouldn't be a requirement for the reticle to be seen, only to pinpoint point of impact in low light. 4. As light as possible while still maintaining reliability. I think Tangent Theta's Long Range Hunter is a really, really good design, though I'd prefer a 42 mm objective for a little less weight and trimmer scope, perhaps finer inner section and limit the illumination to only the inner mil, but it's a really good design overall.....reliability and toughness being the biggest "if". Bushnell's LRHS is a really good design as well. S&B's Klassic 3-12 FFP P3 with a BDC is close but could use more elevation adjustment. A 30mm PMII 3-12x42 would be very nice. NF's 2.5-10x42 NXS would be great if it was FFP and had better reticle options. Again, different preferences for different people, just my $.02
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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You Crying CLUELESS Kchunts and never ending Hurt Feelers Reports,are a fhuqking HOOT! Hint. ![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q90/923/oZREXl.png) ![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q90/923/yOAAMx.png) Fortunately for you gals,Imagination and Pretend are free,so even you Melting Snowflakes can "afford" to "contribute". Hint. Fhuqking LAUGHING!..............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2010
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Coyotes shot no waiting.
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Posts: 42,617
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,617 |
I've had a few other brands that have never lost zero or fail to track for a lot less money, a lot less. For example a Swaro PH 1.5x6X42 (same as the S&B) do exactly the same for less, then so have my (no longer manufactured ) Leupold (the horror) 1.75X6X 32 for a LOT less. Granted the S&B's glass is much better, but not at four times the price which is my point. Hell, I have some forty plus year old Weavers that I've never touched the adjustments. My only point is Swaros and many other Euroglass are just not worth the money. Most of their price has to do with labor coasts of course. They are if you do much hunting in very dim light... or darkness. We can legally hunt an hour after dark here. Most any scope is good in bright light. Most any $350 scope nowadays has glass that will get you to/past legal shooting light, including the Chicom stuff. A good reticle is just as important. Absolutely, and one of the issues with Swaros (and they admit it) their reticles are way too thin. Years ago I went to a heavy duplex for low light situations and it was a revelation. Can't hit the target if you can't find the X hairs.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 8,743 |
Jorge
TCS
This Crosshair Syndrome.
Leupold suffers from the vary same affliction.
dave
Only accurate rifles are interesting.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,617
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,617 |
Jorge
TCS
This Crosshair Syndrome.
Leupold suffers from the vary same affliction.
dave Acutally, no. The duplex on a Leupold is FAR more visible than Swaros', the glass, etc is another story, but I can tell you if you get the HD option on a Leupold (or used to anyway), although the Swaro was most definitively a clearer, sharper view, it was offset by those thin cross hairs
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,119
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,119 |
ILya,
Twenty-nine years ago Zeiss threw a factory tour for a bunch of American writers, including both hunting and bird-watching. That was back when they had three factories in Germany, and it was a week-long deal. By halfway through the trip it was obvious the hunting writers were there to be enlightened about why Zeiss scopes were the best in the world, yet American hunters were quite stupidly not buying more of them.
One of the other American hunting writers was Jim Carmichel, and he started explaining the faults of Zeiss scopes for American hunting--including the fact that like just about every other major scope manufacturer did NOT seal/purge their scopes against moisture. (One exception was Kahles, which started doing so in the 1960s.) I joined Jim in discussing that, and various other factors. The Zeiss guys were rather startled, but it evidently sunk in that the U.S. is the largest hunting-scope market in the world. It "only" took another six years for Zeiss to introduce the original Conquest line....
Where are doing your mule deer/elk hunt?
John
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Posts: 8,743
Campfire Outfitter
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ILya
I'm thinking you could make a pretty good argument for FFP.
dave
Only accurate rifles are interesting.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,760 |
ILya
I'm thinking you could make a pretty good argument for FFP.
dave If you're going to recommend it how about the following: FFP with a new P3 Hunter reticle...essentially their P3 reticle with only 3 or 3.5 mils to each quad with .5 mil hashes. Only the inner most mil illuminated (P3L)...or a FD P3...if they were going to use illumination. Really, their P3, P3L, and FD P3 are good...if the original scope discussed was FFP with any of those I'd be in line.
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Posts: 111
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 111 |
ILya,
Twenty-nine years ago Zeiss threw a factory tour for a bunch of American writers, including both hunting and bird-watching. That was back when they had three factories in Germany, and it was a week-long deal. By halfway through the trip it was obvious the hunting writers were there to be enlightened about why Zeiss scopes were the best in the world, yet American hunters were quite stupidly not buying more of them.
One of the other American hunting writers was Jim Carmichel, and he started explaining the faults of Zeiss scopes for American hunting--including the fact that like just about every other major scope manufacturer did NOT seal/purge their scopes against moisture. (One exception was Kahles, which started doing so in the 1960s.) I joined Jim in discussing that, and various other factors. The Zeiss guys were rather startled, but it evidently sunk in that the U.S. is the largest hunting-scope market in the world. It "only" took another six years for Zeiss to introduce the original Conquest line....
Where are doing your mule deer/elk hunt?
John Did they outright tell you that nitrogen purge and sealing wasn't a good idea, or just look down, tilt their heads slightly, do the Germanic negative head shake, and slowly explain to you why you were wrong?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I could think of a bunch of people in line
Dave
Only accurate rifles are interesting.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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It was only an issue when someone got one for free.
And then cooked it on a stove for 24 hours
Only accurate rifles are interesting.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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That reticle is extremely easy for hunting measured set up......just like any standard duplex. Darrel
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