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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Just got off the phone with one of my PH's Sir Ron, it's ALL on like donkey kong now!!!!!
Trump Won!
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Joined: Jan 2016
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Campfire Tracker
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Sir Jerry said: There can be no better chance for the .458 WM+ to shine than in his most able hands. No better rifleman, no better rifle, no better bullets. What could possibly go wrong ? Stay clear of any donkeys and be safe.
Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary .458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Joined: May 2009
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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CRS, NRA Benefactor Life Member, Whittington Center, TSRA, DWWC, DRSS Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
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LMAO!!!!! Funny but TRUE stuff Sir Ron.
Trump Won!
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Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 88
Campfire Greenhorn
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OP
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I just saw the last few posts from the various Knights - for some reason the forum was not notifying me of new posts. Thanks again for all the help, and I would be honored to sit at the square table. I don't actually have any meaningful 458 experience to draw on though, so a poor addition I would be. My first 458 should arrive next week, and I have about 160 rounds from Federal to run through it. By then, I hope to have some powder and primers in hand to start reloading the 404 hammer, which really does seem like a great do it all bullet.
Has anyone used the 404 on big game yet? Buffalo even?
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,360 Likes: 8
Campfire Tracker
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I just saw the last few posts from the various Knights - for some reason the forum was not notifying me of new posts. Thanks again for all the help, and I would be honored to sit at the square table. I don't actually have any meaningful 458 experience to draw on though, so a poor addition I would be. My first 458 should arrive next week, and I have about 160 rounds from Federal to run through it. By then, I hope to have some powder and primers in hand to start reloading the 404 hammer, which really does seem like a great do it all bullet.
Has anyone used the 404 on big game yet? Buffalo even? Well pick your Sir Name and I'll let you know if anyone else has it already. Anything will do if not already taken, Sir ??? ... Sir Jerry might be the first use the 404 Shock Hammer on game. Wait for it. ...
Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary .458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 88
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Looking forward to hearing about Sir Jerry's exploits.
What system do you guys prefer for trimming 458WM cases? Seems like most of the stuff on the market today uses the shoulder...
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Joined: Jan 2016
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Campfire Tracker
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Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary .458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 88
Campfire Greenhorn
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Looks good Sir Ron, thank you. ONe of the reasons I got out of precision rifle reloading was that I hated the case prep. It didn't help that I needed thousands of rds a year. I think the 458 will be much more manageable, and hopefully even fun to mess with those big cases. I have a Lee trimming system, which I will try out and then go from there if it doesn't work well enough. As an aside, though I'm. bit of a Redding snob in many ways, I have found most of the Lee stuff to work as advertised and have been very happy with those purchases. Just depends what you are trying to accomplish.
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 302
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2010
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So I can change my Model 70 to load to 3.585" COAL with a .375 H&H mag box, follower, and bolt stop, which will change my action and mag well to 3.6" from 3.4". I have five questions to add to the pile over the last week: 1. Can you confirm that the factory chamber in the FN/Winchester 70 Safari will accommodate the extra 3.585 - 3.340 = 0.245 in of COAL? 2. Will SAAMI 3.340" cartridges bounce around in the bottom of the magazine well enough after a few top-ups to move the bullets in the cases under recoil? 3. Would it be fine to load to the same 0.2" spread between the magazine boxes i.e. 3.540" to leave the same slop in the magazine? If so, can I use the same loads as in SAAMI spec reloading manuals, but with the bullet out 0.2" to have uncompressed loads? Would I get the same velocity at lower pressure, given the same powder charge? 4. If the magazine box difference between .458WM and .375 H&H is only 0.2 inches, does that mean the difference in bolt throw between standard length (.30-06 SPRG, .458WM) and the .375 H&H is also only 0.2 inches? 5. If I'm handloading anyway, would the 450 grain Swift A-Frame at 2200 fps in a factory SAAMI 3.340" length do everything that a 500 grain A-Frame would at 2150 fps at 3.585"? If so, would the same apply to solids? I'd go as light as I could reasonably get away with.
Last edited by philthygeezer; 11/03/22.
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 808
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I'm sure Ron will join in soon and give you clear accurate answers to all but; just about every loading combo for COAL can be found in the 458 WM thread. Just takes some reading which you will greatly enjoy. You last question and statement about going "as light as you can reasonably get away with" means that you can stay at factory SAAMI 3.340 length and get all the performance you want in the magnificent 458WM The Longer COAL's are for those reaching beyond past the goals of "Light" loads. One exception to that is loading Cast. The Longer COAL's are useful for setting the bullets closer to the rifling's and getting a straighter and gentler start on the cast bullets path down the barrel. However, factory SAAMI 3.340 works just fine with Cast as well. Just can't go wrong with a 458WM sir. F01
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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......
Last edited by jwp475; 11/04/22.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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So I can change my Model 70 to load to 3.585" COAL with a .375 H&H mag box, follower, and bolt stop, which will change my action and mag well to 3.6" from 3.4". I have five questions to add to the pile over the last week: The ejector and boltstop are two separate parts needed, both shorter on the .375 H&H action. This times the ejection for when the bolt stops at the more rearward withdrawal set by the boltstop. Don't confuse the rotating claw extractor with the fixed ejector residing there beside the boltstop.1. Can you confirm that the factory chamber in the FN/Winchester 70 Safari will accommodate the extra 3.585 - 3.340 = 0.245 in of COAL? The SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber will accommodate longer COL than a SAAMI .458 Lott chamber will. Any COL with a bullet that is not touching the rifling in a .458 Lott will have even more room to spare in the .458 Winchester Magnum loaded to same COL when bullet length is long enough to allow that.2. Will SAAMI 3.340" cartridges bounce around in the bottom of the magazine well enough after a few top-ups to move the bullets in the cases under recoil? As Forrest Gump said, "It happens." But not with a properly loaded round, 100 to 105% net fill and a good crimp on a good, recoil-stopping cannelure or groove.3. Would it be fine to load to the same 0.2" spread between the magazine boxes i.e. 3.540" to leave the same slop in the magazine? If so, can I use the same loads as in SAAMI spec reloading manuals, but with the bullet out 0.2" to have uncompressed loads? Would I get the same velocity at lower pressure, given the same powder charge? Of course you can, as long as you keep most powders over 85% net fill, and H4895 can be used down to 60% of a maximum load with your particular bullet. Different powders react differently. Some will show decreased pressure and velocity, but some may actually increase pressure and velocity when de-compressed. See my latest post on the .458 WinMag Mega Thread. Sort of like "Mega MAGA" is to good people, so is that thread to the .458 Winchester Magnum. 4. If the magazine box difference between .458WM and .375 H&H is only 0.2 inches, does that mean the difference in bolt throw between standard length (.30-06 SPRG, .458WM) and the .375 H&H is also only 0.2 inches? Yes it is only about 0.200" different, maybe as much as 0.250" (I have not measured precisely) difference in bolt throw, but absolutely only 0.200" difference in mag box length. This points up the silliness of putting a 0.300" longer cartridge case in a rifle that is only 0.200" longer in mag box, i.e., the .458 Lott. You have to trim the .458 Lott brass short to make some bullets fit inside a 3.600" COL when they work as is in 2.500" brass with a 3.340" COL, per SAAMI.5. If I'm handloading anyway, would the 450 grain Swift A-Frame at 2200 fps in a factory SAAMI 3.340" length do everything that a 500 grain A-Frame would at 2150 fps at 3.585"? If so, would the same apply to solids? I'd go as light as I could reasonably get away with. As others have said, you can stick to SAAMI .458 WinMag loads at 3.340" max COL and 60,000 psi MAP if that is all you want to do. 2150 fps with 500-grainers and 2200 fps with 450-grainers is easy-peasy with sub-maximal loads in a SAAMI .458 WinMag with 24" barrel. Long monometal brass solids are a different kettle of fish, but 2300 fps with the CEB 450-grain brass Safari Solid will do +2350 fps in a factory .458 WinMag M70 Winchester with the usual +3.4" mag box. COL might be as much as 3.360" and pressure might even be a tad over 60,000 psi, but not much. That solid load will not be beat by any other heavier solid, in whatever rifle, IMHO.
Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary .458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Campfire Tracker
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Well, Maybe the 500-gr Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid at 2300 fps in a .458 WM+ load will give the 450-grain CEB Safari Solid a run for its money, it will be close, both more than enough. A 400-gr CEB Safari Solid at higher speed may not be quite so good, but also more than enough, IMHO. Even at 2500 fps it is easier on my shoulder.
Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary .458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Joined: Mar 2010
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Campfire Member
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Thanks for good info and answering all my questions. I will also proceed back to the .458 WM mega thread and read the rest of it. Fantastic to be able to draw on the experience of people who share it on these forums.
Last edited by philthygeezer; 11/07/22.
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