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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,083
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,083 |
At the end of the day only you can decide if it matters enough for you to be concerned in regards to how much the slight destabilization effects you and yours. Get out to the range and start experimenting - oh darn, there's shooting to be done!
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,681
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,681 |
Good video, Montana Marine, thanks for posting.
Last edited by 43Shooter; 07/30/22.
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,771
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,771 |
Always amazes how solid many are in their beliefs, when they have no solid reason. Ballistic discussions with casual shooters brings this out quickly.
Secondly, the more I learn about the factors that effect accuracy and ballistics, The more it becomes amazing that it is so easy to hit even basketball size targets at 200 yards. With anything.
Mechanically. Not considering human operator screw ups.
The thing is, so many of these factors are insignificant for the vast majority of shooters. Even most serious hunters and recreational shooters. Tolerance stacking may be causing them misses when they try to stretch out. But for many, they didn't expect 100% hits. So some misses are figured to be shooter error. Some hits, may actually be the shooter zigging when the shot was zagging.
20+ years ago a friend and I started on a longer range 22 mission. We were soon frustrated by misses, that we didn't think were shooter error.
Using decent to high quality sporters we then gathered up a bunch of ammo and tried two guns with on a calm morning.
It soon became apparent that we were pissing in the wind with our setups and needed to upgrade to get the mechanical accuracy we wanted. Its no fun not knowing if your hits or misses were equipment or you.
Pretty much gave up there. No desire to dump the necessary cash into it. Now, I believe the equipment is readily.
Big difference between 95+% of 22 use and stretching one way out there and expecting consistent results.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,554
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,554 |
Ammunition quality has more affect on the accuracy. Ammo companies don't load match grade high velocity that I'm aware of, no market demand for it.
The transition from supersonic to subsonic flight causes increased wind drift, by effectively decreasing the bullet's ballistic coefficient. As the shockwave switches positions on the bullet during the transition from supersonic to subsonic speed the bullet's flight path yaws, or takes a minute spiral around the axis of its flight path. This exposes a larger "frontal area" to the air, increasing the drag. So you're really looking at two issues, ammo quality and increased wind drift with high velocity .22 long rifle.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,554
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,554 |
There is a problem with the boat tailed .17M2 bullets tumbling at longer distances as the velocity falls off, approximately 200 yards; the HMR has more speed and avoids that until quite a bit further out. Nothing to do with the .22 LR.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,694
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,694 |
saying 'hmmmmm' as I grab a handful of mixed .22 LR from a jug before going out to shoot..................
Sam......
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,098
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,098 |
Drag has many variables, but in general terms Mach 1 represents the realm where most drag is found. The transonic velocity zone ranges from around Mach .8-1.2 A point many overlook is how bullet form plays into this. Round nose flat base bullets do just dandy in the subsonic velocity range.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752 |
At the end of the day only you can decide if it matters enough for you to be concerned in regards to how much the slight destabilization effects you and yours. Get out to the range and start experimenting - oh darn, there's shooting to be done! Yeah, tough job, but somebody’s got to do it. Did my bit this morning, and confirmed that even with a tilted rail, my Tract 1” hunting scope doesn’t have enough clicks for dialing so I can hold right on at 200. Looks like the SS 10x is going back on. Don’t tell Stick…………
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,133
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,133 |
Did my bit this morning, and confirmed that even with a tilted rail, my Tract 1” hunting scope doesn’t have enough clicks for dialing so I can hold right on at 200. Looks like the SS 10x is going back on. When I was playing with the Martini @ 200 yards I used a set of the Burris Rings with the inserts when I ran out of MOA - Worked pretty well.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375 |
Yeah, tough job, but somebody’s got to do it.
Did my bit this morning, and confirmed that even with a tilted rail, my Tract 1” hunting scope doesn’t have enough clicks for dialing so I can hold right on at 200. Looks like the SS 10x is going back on.
Don’t tell Stick………… That SWFA SS is a great scope. Was out yesterday morning working up some '06 cast bullet loads and plinking with a Tikka T1x in between strings. It wears a SS 10x mil/mil sighted dead on at 100 yards. The range has a 6" disc at 200; I had previously worked up a ballistics chart to 200 yards which showed a 4.3 mil come up at 200. So instead of twisting the dial I just held halfway between the 4 and 4.5 mil hash marks - ping ping ping ping ping, five out of five. Love those 10x mil/mil scopes, especially when SWFA has them on sale, and have purchased six of them over the last couple of years - two for my "serious" .22 rifles and the other four on various long range centerfire rigs. Back to the thread topic. I was using CCI AR Tactical ammo which throws a a 40 grain bullet right at 1200 fps (1198 avg on the Oehler 35). The bullets surely go subsonic over 200 yards but apparently transiting the sound barrier didn't disturb them enough to miss a 3 MOA target. Not trying to argue or counter the finer points of ballistic theory here but I guess you gotta match your target to your expectations.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery. Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752 |
Did my bit this morning, and confirmed that even with a tilted rail, my Tract 1” hunting scope doesn’t have enough clicks for dialing so I can hold right on at 200. Looks like the SS 10x is going back on. When I was playing with the Martini @ 200 yards I used a set of the Burris Rings with the inserts when I ran out of MOA - Worked pretty well. I have a bunch of those and extra inserts, but the Tract is destined for a Howa Mini that won’t need either. The rings it’s in are Warne Mountain Techs, a new favorite.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752 |
Was looking at them online yesterday and decided the MOA version could be useful as well for some stuff since the numbers are marked, no counting needed, just holdover.
My MIL/MIL was already in rings spaced for a rail so mounting it was a quick job. Hoping for a still morning soon.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,300
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,300 |
Did my bit this morning, and confirmed that even with a tilted rail, my Tract 1” hunting scope doesn’t have enough clicks for dialing so I can hold right on at 200. Looks like the SS 10x is going back on. When I was playing with the Martini @ 200 yards I used a set of the Burris Rings with the inserts when I ran out of MOA - Worked pretty well. I have a bunch of those and extra inserts, but the Tract is destined for a Howa Mini that won’t need either. The rings it’s in are Warne Mountain Techs, a new favorite. I like those Warnes myself if I’m mounting flat. The Leupold BCs aren’t half bad either.
Semper Fi
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,056
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,056 |
This is how I set up my Ruger Precision Rimfire for long range play. The rifle comes with a 30 moa base attached. I added 20 more with the AR-Stoner mount from Midway. With the SWFA 10X MilQuad scope, this gives 36 Mils (120 moa) of useable elevation in the erector, from a 60 yard zero, with supersonic ammo. Plus there is another 10 mils on the reticle. On paper that is enough for a direct hold out to 600+ yards. I've only played with it out to around 500 yards. Most of the time I have this little 1.5-5X Leupold on there, for typical 22 tasks/fun. It has 100 moa on tap. Enough to get to 500+ yards, but harder to see splashes.
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752 |
Yesterday I bottomed out the Tract and then had to hold about another 18”, plus 6” into the wind I couldn’t feel. Had one round of SK left and guesstimated it onto the 4” plate, very satisfying.
Shoulda got the 30moa Area 419 instead of the 15 I guess.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,771
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,771 |
Yeah, tough job, but somebody’s got to do it.
Did my bit this morning, and confirmed that even with a tilted rail, my Tract 1” hunting scope doesn’t have enough clicks for dialing so I can hold right on at 200. Looks like the SS 10x is going back on.
Don’t tell Stick………… That SWFA SS is a great scope. Was out yesterday morning working up some '06 cast bullet loads and plinking with a Tikka T1x in between strings. It wears a SS 10x mil/mil sighted dead on at 100 yards. The range has a 6" disc at 200; I had previously worked up a ballistics chart to 200 yards which showed a 4.3 mil come up at 200. So instead of twisting the dial I just held halfway between the 4 and 4.5 mil hash marks - ping ping ping ping ping, five out of five. Love those 10x mil/mil scopes, especially when SWFA has them on sale, and have purchased six of them over the last couple of years - two for my "serious" .22 rifles and the other four on various long range centerfire rigs. Back to the thread topic. I was using CCI AR Tactical ammo which throws a a 40 grain bullet right at 1200 fps (1198 avg on the Oehler 35). The bullets surely go subsonic over 200 yards but apparently transiting the sound barrier didn't disturb them enough to miss a 3 MOA target. Not trying to argue or counter the finer points of ballistic theory here but I guess you gotta match your target to your expectations. saying 'hmmmmm' as I grab a handful of mixed .22 LR from a jug before going out to shoot.................. And those posts illustrate so much. Couple weeks ago a daughter and I were out shooting 22 at clay birds. 25-50 yards with MKIIs or her American Rim fire with some cheap 4x scope I picked up. She was working on her offhand and trying to get shots off quicker. There is a metal swinger at 200 in a lane through the trees, Just for hits and giggles I sat at a bench, rested my elbows, took a SWAG that the junction of the duplex hairs was about right for elevation. DING! First round. Using Golden Bullets from a bucket. Emma had to try, and after she understood the post as the aiming point, Was ringing it at will. One of those things that shouldn't be. But it is. And way too easy!
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 950
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 950 |
To the original poster I hesitate to send you to another forum but you would be interested in a long series of posts by Jala on RF central where he shoots all 50 rounds of a box at 100 yds and another box at 200 yards off of a bench. His work with a few other guys additions show just how challenging it is to get 22lr ammo that has consistency due to many factors. Almost every brand is represented in the testing. Learned a lot looking over the different “Groups” that were represented in that very extensive collection of shooting work. My 22’s are better fed after a bit of scratching around to buy some of the ammo choices that held up better in those shooting groups posted.
I used to only shoot shotguns and rimfires, then I made the mistake of getting a subscription to handloader.......
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,260
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,260 |
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
( . Y . )
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 26,508
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 26,508 |
To the original poster I hesitate to send you to another forum but you would be interested in a long series of posts by Jala on RF central where he shoots all 50 rounds of a box at 100 yds and another box at 200 yards off of a bench. His work with a few other guys additions show just how challenging it is to get 22lr ammo that has consistency due to many factors. Almost every brand is represented in the testing. Learned a lot looking over the different “Groups” that were represented in that very extensive collection of shooting work. My 22’s are better fed after a bit of scratching around to buy some of the ammo choices that held up better in those shooting groups posted. Those tests are fascinating. The standard deviation in the velocity of a lot of rimfire ammo is HUGE. Add in a little wind, and you come to realize that what a lot of people say they do at 200 yards with a rimfire is BS.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,067
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,067 |
Big fan of Jala’s work too. Provided me with more realistic expectations.
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