Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Sir Roo,
My thoughts first of all came to what was the factory loaded bullet used in each of those loads,
500-grain Federal Fusion soft nose or TBBC or TBSS or Woodleigh HYDRO, etc.,
in both the .458 WinMag and .458 Lott ?

I have tested the .458 WinMag 500-gr Federal Fusion soft nose
and the 500-gr HYDRO Federal factory loads in a 24"-barrel of M70 Super Grade from SC.
Way faster than advertised for the Fusion: 2192 fps MV (2177 fps 5-yard) average for 5 shots at 46*F.
For the HYDRO: 2062 fps MV (2046 fps 5-yard) average for 5 shots at 46*F, same rifle, same shooting session.

That is a good point and I'm embarrassed that I left the info out. The WM was a Swift A frame, and the Lott was a Capped Hydro. I can redo the shoot with ammo using the same bullets, either Swift or Hydro, whichever I have for both. Actually, I don't think they load the Swift in the Lott. I also have some Trophy bonded sledgehammers in both, I think. Only have TBBC in 400g WM.

Sir Roo,
The 500-gr TBSS in Federal factory loads
would be a great comparison of .458 WM to .458 Lott,
both fired in same R8.

You will not lose much by firing the .458 WM in the .458 Lott chamber,
compared to .458 WM fired in .458 WM chamber.

The extra slop in the Lott chamber is partially compensated for by the shorter distance from breech face to rifling contact in the Lott chamber.

Sad state of affairs for rifle brass availability in general.
Maybe it is time to start necking up and blowing out
any .375 H&H based cartridges that can be made to work.
That is a lot of possibilities with the .458 WinMag.
A mini chop saw will work wonders on .458 Lott brass as a first step.

Getting a mould for heeled bullet .375- caliber at base and .460-caliber above would be fun to use on .375 H&H brass.
Could be used as plinking and potshot loads.
Fire-form then chop saw, FL size and finish trim to 2.5" and anneal.

The neck wall thickness would be thicker at 2.5" than at 2.8" ...

That is some funny stuff Sir Ron, barring an equipment failure, simply cant fathom one being so afraid of their rifle they cant hit a VW beetle bug behind a front tire parked sideways, hell, i/we could hit a buffalo with a damn rock at 50 yards LOL, lott undoubtedly lacked A LOT, must have been how the fraud was hatched to be famous and invent a cartridge in one's name to massage a narcissistic and fragile ego.

I am very sad to report chit shooting is still alive and well today, the 'client' just before little Wife and me landed in that camp in Tanzania 2020 had made a pile of messes, PH told me he shot a blaser in 375 H&H and was from Utah, he:

Gut shot and lost a Cape Buffalo
Hit a Leopard bad, PH had to press the barrel of his 450 Rigby against the cat and blow it off one of Trackers
Went prone with bi-pod on his blaser to shoot a bull Hippo on dry ground only 26 yards away, PH yanked him up by his belt telling him he was going to get both of them killed!
PH finished the bull Hippo
blaser guy managed to place crap hits but trackers eventually found a wildebeest and waterbuck

So yes, with all that crap still very alive and well today some other genius is liable to invent us all a new cartridge, it'll be the greatest of all time!!!!! LOL

Thanks for the history lessons yet again Sir.

Sir Jerry,
Sad but true and ironic as hell !

New data on pressures coming in, hopefully will have it on your buffalo load before you go.
Off to a good start:











Old AA-2230 powder data showed a surprising drop in pressure for merely going from 3.28" COL to 3.38" COL.
Stay tuned for more on that.

Recommended load of 75 grains AA-2230 (new vintage) with CEB 450-grain safari Solid:
.458 Winchester Magnum, standard SAAMI chamber and loading constraints
Winchester M70 Classic factory barrel shortened to 20"
Winchester brass
F215 Match primer (GM215M)
3.282" COL
55,600 psi (strain gage)
2226 fps MV (LabRadar)

That would give about 2300 fps flat MV in a 24" .458 WinMag.
An elephant could not tell whether your barrel was 20" or 24" with that load.

I say increase the COL to 3.380" and increase the powder charge until the elephant notices a difference.

Here is my request, posted to Doc M at MIB:

Michael458,

I am not too proud to beg for some of your science.

Please consider 404gr Shock Hammer pressure test in 20″ .458 WM
with F215 primer if possible, WLRM would be good too,
just so all are done with same primer:

NORMA brass:
3.280″ COL with 80.0 grains AA-2230
3.380″ COL with 82.0 grains AA-2230
3.480″ COL with 84.0 grains AA-2230

WW-SUPER brass:
3.480″ COL with 81.0 grains AA-2460
3.480″ COL with 82.0 grains AA-2460
3.480″ COL with 83.0 grains AA-2460

Those WW-SUPER (brass case) loads with AA-2460 would be a check on the load for
Sir Jerry (gunner500) who is going after cape buffalo soon,
with same bullet, same COL, same brass, same powder.

The NORMA (brass case) loads with AA-2230 would be a check on me.
I liked that 3.480″ COL with 84.0 grains AA-2230,
but would be willing to settle for less if pressure too high.

A drop tube and heavily compressed H4895 is another favorite,
no different than a .458 Lott load with a certain 400-gr bullet from Woodleigh,
same degree of powder compression with same bullet and COL.

Here is the MIB rifle and laboratory being used to test a 20" barrel for velocity and pressure.
M70 Classic factory rifle customized to 20" barrel length:

I wonder how that 20" M70 balances. I used to be all about short barrels, and they did a lot of good work for me but I seem to prefer the balance of a longer tube these days.

Thanks Sir Ron, would be interesting to see the pressure data on my 404gr Hammer buffalo load, in the name of Aunt Jemima, i poured the rest of the better part of a pound of old 2460 into a large plastic pail with two pounds of new 2460, mixed them all up very well by hand, used funnel to pour new mixture into the two new bottles, works like a champ, and with basically ragged hole three shot groups, im GTG!

Sir Jerry,
I did note the AA-2460 I bought in 2019 had yellow trim on the label
and the 2022 purchase had red.
Should be same stuff starting in 2016.
Your mixing of multiple 1-pound cannisters is a good practice.
I learned that trick from Sir Saint Bagwell.
He recommended it for BP to smooth out any
lot-to-lot variation.

At the Hammer site:

"We have had several clients take Cape buffalo with Hammers."

We are waiting to find out what lesser calibers than the .458/404gr Shock Hammer were used.

Seems the bloke at Hammer site is not forthcoming
except to say .416 Rigby
and might have been Aussie buffalo.
Might take some digging there to get more specifics.
Sir Jerry may be the first on cape buffalo yet
as long as he shoots straighter than Jack Lott did.
Maybe a first with the 404gr Shock Hammer to boot.

Sir Ron, many thanks for all the work you've done, and are still doing, in regard to the 404gr Shock Hammer.

Don't know when that item will be available in Canada, but there is a shop in Toronto that has dealings with Hammer.

I went looking for another can of CFE-223 yesterday at a shop south of here where I've done a lot of business over the years (and where I purchased my first 1-lb can), and all they had in store were four 1-lb cans (total) of gun powder. Two of which they'd just received - and NO CFE-223!

At the range a week ago, a discussion was had, prior to the commencement of shooting, about the extreme shortage of handloading components, mostly in primers and powders as well as bullets and brass.

My son shared his delima in locating any primers for his Traditions in .44 Rem Mag. He did finally succeed at a small shop, but was told by the shop owner that a client had only on the previous day bought most of his primers for $11,000 (that's eleven thousand). That client will never personally, ever, use that many but will resell at about 2x the cost to himself!

There's a LOT of hording going on based on fear and greed!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

You bet Sir Ron, i wont let You, the guys at Hammer, my PH or the buffalo down, you all have a chit-ton of work, money and R&D to expect anything less than the very best, i'll be punching vitals as fast and accurate as possible.

My 404 Hammers arrived today. I was just starting to think about calling them, as it took two weeks to get here. Doing the math with these expensive bullets, it seems like it will cost a bit under half as much to load them (components only), compared to buying a similar factory loading. Might be a bit expensive for normal practice, so I hope to get my cast load sorted out here soon.

Does anyone have any loads for a 405g cast bullet, using AA2015? I only have the smallest amount of Varget left to experiment with, and no signs of getting any more.

Also, my Mark X has arrived, and wearing a very nice B&C stock. Hope to try her out this evening at the end of my pistol practice.

Sir Ron, or anyone else, where can I find the actual videos of Sir Bagwell hunting in Africa? I'd like to hear the BP/Sharps stuff for sure, though the pics are very nice.

Here is one of the Zebra

Like a meat clever! Dang!

that was a bang flop . old striped horse did't even kick