Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Great! a french/african acrobatic eagle LOL, the joined for life deal is cool too, Thanks for the definitions Sir Ron.

And yes on the b.a.d. deal, politicans, liberals, kweers and smart mouthed people RUIN everything they touch, or come in contact with, "Thank You Very Much" is more than fine by me.

Great data from MIB ; ]

From MIB:



Crying in my beer there:

Well, Michael458. it was wise of you to not go any higher than 86.0 grains AA-2230.

So I have no need to load to 3.580″, will stick to the 3.480″ max COL loads in the .458 WM-Hammer.
The only way I can make sense of the .458 Lott winning by such a large margin,
faster and lower pressure with 2 grains more powder at 3.590″ COL,
is to think that the extra 0.3″ of brass length swells out to increase the volume of the combustion chamber,
to greater effect in the .458 Lott than the effects of the longer throat in the .458 WinMag can allow.
Uncle !
Of course there may be differences between the rifle barrels that are more than just length,
but I won’t go there.

But wait : Michael458,
Does that .458 Lott have the original CIP chamber that actually has a .458 WinMag throat tacked onto the 2.8″ chamber,
or is it a standard SAAMI chamber for the .458 Lott with short/tight throat ?
When was the rifle made and have you checked it for throat length ?
CIP homologated the .458 Lott before SAAMI.
After SAAMI homologation, CIP changed to match SAAMI chamber.

(I suspect a long throat on that .458 Lott at MIB.)

The MIB .458 Lott showing surprisingly better results with the 404gr Hammer
was built before there was a SAAMI standard for the .458 Lott.
Hopefully we will get to some measure of its throat.
The 1984 to 2005 era CIP homologation for the .458 Lott gave it a WinMag throat and 2.8" brass.
That might beat a WinMag throat with 2.5" brass, you think ?

Amazingly fast service from Montana to Kentucky, on a sample of 447-gr./.458-cal. Shock Hammers.
Mercy bo coop to Steve and Brian.









Some musings:
About the only way to improve the 405-gr/.458-cal. “Backward Solid” Hammer (my BS Hammer)
would be to make the FN meplat 0.300″ diameter inside the edge bevel (about 66% of bullet diameter),
stretch the nose forward in length, maybe eliminating the first PDR wave,
6 instead of 7 troughs might do,
eliminate hollow in base and shorten the base portion length,
making a true flat base.
A nose projection of 0.450″ when crimped at centerline of first PDR trough would be perfect for all .45-70 Gov’t. rifles.

Sir Bevan,

That there is some complex musing, good question.

More weight, more momentum: more penetration.
More weight, longer bullet, less stable terminally: less penetration
More velocity, more momentum: more penetration.
More velocity, greater resistance from reactive/higher order media like game animals/aqueous media: less penetration
More velocity: even a brass FN begins to deform when impacting water at 2800 fps: less penetration

I do not have the answer except to go middle of the road with a 400-grainer at 2400 to 2500 fps.
Maybe refer to BULLET PENETRATION by Duncan MacPherson.
My next homework assignment ...
I refuse to try calculus after all these years, and just can't do all the experimental shooting required for an answer just yet, heh heh.

Starting with that TBSH 500-gr FN and filing it down to lighter weights would be a start ...
The 500-gr and 450-gr Barnes Banded Solids, then filed down to 400-grains by Bubba ... loading them all to equal momentum levels ...

Sir Jerry,
May the bateleur be the omen of good luck for your .458 WM+.
Keep count of how many times you spot one watching you from the sky.
Break a leg !
Anticipating your bon voyage is killing me.

Thank you Very Much.
Aye
F01

Sir Ron,

Loading to equal momentum levels--that's it. Eliminating that variable in testing is the way to begin. Thank you.

Thanks to Sir Ron, I've now converted my New Haven M70 to a .458WM+. I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and with Sir Ron's coaching on this thread, I got it completed. Also, previous to this and years ago, in correspondence with Sir Bob, I wondered about getting a .458 Lott, and his response was to instead, get a .458 WM and load long since it had a better throat. Standing on the shoulders of giants...

This is the new magazine box:


After popping out the rear spacer with a wood chisel, it looks like this compared to the original box:


The new, shorter ejector compared to the original, longer ejector:


The new, shorter bolt stop compared to the original, longer bolt stop.


Finally, look at how much more space is now available! For common reference, the cartridges are vintage Remington 510 SP ammo.

Sir, are you certain your Royal 500/450 is a 75gr Cordite rifle? I haven't seen one that is, and mine is a 70gr Tropical Load rifle (delivered 1906), as was TR's.

How does that load regulate?

Thanks, Chris

Will do Sir Ron, and Thank You very much, put in 18 hours syesterday getting work done, plus any work i can do in advance, like the 20 quarts of venison little Wife canned last weekend, the toil wont spoil!

BCElliot, that conversion looks great, hope you get her set and running like a greased glass rod, very easy to do to utilize the full length factory chamber of the 458 WM+, enjoy, it's a blast.

Hello Chris, You Sir are exactly right, i had to go look and refresh my memory, my rifle and TR's are only a few numbers apart on the serial numbers, a few ones, nines and a zero LOL, i'm getting the rifles i have looked at mixed up with mine, one in particualr is a 450 #2 Nitro Express George out at Champlins has for sale now, it's an 85gr Cordite rifle.

The load shoots to beautiful regulation at 65 yards, i would add powder and shoot till both barrels came to snake eyes at that range, for example, if a right barrel is printing high and right, it's going to slow, then tested both barrels with all solids, then all softs in both barrels, great setup and plenty accurate for double rifle ranges, the extra 48 fps over the stated 2100 fps for 480gr max 70gr Cordite rifles may be due to my rifle having 26" barrels.

It's the only rifle i've ever owned that looks like it's traveling 100 MPH sitting on a table, those Brits knew what they were doing there.

In any case, the H-4831 will yield much lower chamber pressures, i wore an ammo belt loaded with cartridges around the farm one day with a rec'd charge of 70gr 3031 and 3gr pufflon, looks like a cotton ball, that said and before dinner that day, i could shake the contents inside the case, the pufflon had let go and the powder was no longer being held against the primer, pulled the bullets, dumped the powder and worked up loads with H-4831, fills the case nicely, and keeps the powder where it should be, against the primer, i couldn't imagine being on Safari and having the ammo fall apart on the inside like that, a hangfire disaster waiting to happen, i use H-4350 and H-4831 in all my doubles save for one little 303 British double, it runs nicely on RL-15.

Thank you Sir. I will try that. Best To date I have run RE15 and Kynoch wads in that and a nice 500 3 1/4” Royal Dlx Ejector I used to own. I use same powder in the 375 H&H Flanged Barrels (by H&H) that go with the 500/450.

I found H4350 wasn’t giving me the correct velocity for the load/pressure, I think pressure was too low for the velocity, but that’s another story!

My 500/450 is close to 50 below TR’s, and my 500 3 1/4” was four below that.

Happy hunting!

Sir Jerry,
Good Luck, on your Safari!!!
God Bless you and your Wifie!
, and Team!!!

Thanks, Sir Jerry, and happy hunting!

Nitro Express load data always welcome. I used RL-15 with filler for a while in a .470 NE Merkel,
but found I liked H4831 better in that one too.
If doing it again with a foam wad filler I would use Varget,
about grain-for-grain same as RL-15, but better temperature stability and less lot-to-lot variation.

Yes indeed, Sir Bevan, great work.
When I did mine, I had to get a third hand to tap the final roll pin back in while I held the parts and the punch.
My wife has now done some gunsmithing with a little brass hammer.

I have appropriated and labeled your excellent images, for the Square Table:

Homework assignment completed, book report on Duncan MacPherson's BULLET PENETRATION.
Excerpts below for book review: Excellent book.
Some notes by me are inserted.



The truncated-cone nose shape was best penetrator in the handgun bullets, by a small margin.

Stay tuned for a new CEB brass FN 400-gr./.458-cal. bullet with longer nose projection.
It is in the hands of Michael McCourry at MIB.
I'll take it !