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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
BradFord,

Yep, you never know!

A decade ago, on one of the many pig culls I've been part of in Texas, several of us were hunting the King Ranch. It had been a very wet year, and natural feed was not only abundant, but the grass grew so high it was tough finding pigs unless they were right on the ranch roads.

On the last evening it was my turn to shoot, and I'd brought two rifles, an open-sighted .45-70 lever-action and a scoped bolt-action .257 Roberts. Just at sunset a fairly sizeable boar--somewhat larger than I generally pick for eating--was moseying along the edge of the road around 250 yards away, feeding with his snout just about touching the tall grass along the edge.

Soon he disappeared around a bend, giving me a chance to stalk closer. I would have preferred to use the .45-70, because it would leave a bigger blood trail if the pig got into the grass, but the light was not only growing dim but the boar was pretty much in line with the sunset, so I grabbed the .257 and made the sneak. As I came around the bend in the road, the pig was about 150 yards away, broadside, and instead of getting fancy I aimed at the rear edge of the shoulder, knowing any wobble would still hit something vital.

At the shot he dropped right there, and I thought the 115-grain Partition might have broken the shoulders--but nope, it had only gone through ribs and lungs! It was another one of those lucky instances: Have seen a bunch of other pigs hit in the same place, most with cartridges larger than the .257, and they'd run off 50 yards or more before expiring. One was a 60-pounder that went 60-65 yards after a 250-grain monolithic from a 9.3x62 made a big hole in both lungs!

My old friend Ron Spomer's wife Betsy had basically the same thing happen with the first Cape buffalo she ever shot. The placement was basically the same, just behind the shoulders through the lungs--and the bull dropped right there and never moved! The rifle was a .375 H&H....

As a generalization, I believe adrenalin has a lot to do with it as well. IMO if an animal is shot without seeing you it tends to drop a lot faster than an animal that is pumped full of adrenalin after scenting or seeing the hunter.

Last edited by High_Noon; 08/21/22.

l told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Make your life go here. Here's where the peoples is. Mother Gue, I says, the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world, and by God, I was right.
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Originally Posted by BradFord
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Riflehunter, you really do want to put words in my posts that I didn't type. So I'll just post the chapter from GUN GACK II mentioned earlier:

OPINIONS OF KILLING POWER

Breaking heavy bone is a far more concrete example of physics than several hundredths of an inch in bullet diameter, whether expanded or unexpanded. Yet true believers in caliber often don’t differentiate between bone shots and bullets that only hit ribs, preferring to believe caliber made the difference when an animal flinches, or falls quickly. Since this is America, everybody’s entitled to an opinion (and even entitled to tell the rest of the world on Facebook), but that still doesn’t turn selective examples of one into real evidence.

Thank you for the outstanding post. I wanted to add one more factor - luck. Every animal is different and reacts differently to being shot.

Last year, I got invited to a game management harvest at a West Texas ranch. Basically, the rancher wanted to reduce the number of does on the property and we got some meat out of the deal. The second day, I got set up in a blind 87 yards from where we put out some feed.

Shortly, after sunup, a nice sized doe came out of the thicket and I placed a 143g ELD-X from my 6.5CM right behind the shoulder. She dropped DRT. Since I didn't have to track her, I decided to stay in the blind while my friend continued his hunt in a different blind about 1/2 mile away.

About 45 minutes later, I was shocked to see another doe wander out and start eating the corn near where the first doe was laying down. I ended up taking the exact same shot with the same equipment. She ran about 30 yards before she passed. When we gutted them out, I swear the entry and exit wounds were within a 1/2 in of each other and no "big" bones were broken.

Why did one doe drop DRT and the other run off bleeding? Luck. On that first shot, the hydrostatic shot from the bullet must have impacted the central nervous system whereas it didn't on the second.
Bradford,
That is a very interesting story and excellent food for thought. Since the conditions of the two shots were just about identical, I am wondering what factors (besides "s*#t happens", which indeed it does) might come into play. Since these were both behind-the-shoulder double lungs, I am thinking of two possible factors:
1) You didn't mention ribs hit or not. I wonder if smashing right through a rib on entry could transfer enough energy right up to the spine to invoke the DRT, when a hit 1/2" away that sipped between the ribs might not?
2) I wonder if where the animal is in its respiration cycle has anything to do with how much shock get transferred to the CNS when a double lung hit occurs. IOW, if the critter has just drawn a breath, and its lungs are full and chest cavity fully expanded, might the effects of an identical shot be different than if it had just completed its exhale, with the chest cavity in the opposite state? It kind of makes sense to me that it might, though I've never heard it discussed.

Not germane to the OP but your story was really thought provoking. All that said, animals are individuals, and s*#t does happen.

Cheers to all,
Rex

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Originally Posted by Garandimal
It is hereto an unexplored corner of the hunting envelope for me.

Have gone round-n-round looking at the new "long range" hunting cartridges... but think that a 24"/1:8 twist long-throated .270 Win and 150 gr. ABLR's, at ~ 3,000 fps at the muzzle, should do nicely.

Am already well entrenched in the cartridge.


Will be contacting Pac-Nor, finalizing a stainless R5 Bbl. w/ a Remington H1 light "varmint" contour, spun-on and trued to a M700 action.

The BDL stock is already bedded and padded, so only "free-floating" the new Bbl. should be necessary (unless the recoil lug changes).

And the magazine length will accommodate long-loaded 3.55" COAL cartridges.


So, what else?

TIA.




GR

Can you hit a 8" pie plate every single time at 600 yards? That would be the first thing it would take.

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Originally Posted by Garandimal
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Garandimal
Originally Posted by memtb
We must determine our definition of “long distance”! Here are my personal requirements….. An accurate rifle, using a fairly high BC bullet upwards of .30 caliber, that will give adequate expansion at the pre-determined distance limit involved, lots of trigger time with said rifle, and carefully choosing good atmospheric conditions! When you’ve satisfied all those parameters……having, as in my case, over 2000 ft/pounds of remaining energy at my personal limit of 600 yards is desirable! memtb

Here's to ya.

2000 ft-lbs. at 600 yards, even for a heavy rifle, bumps me out of precision shooting.

1500 ft-lbs. at 600 yards, with a 9.5 lb rifle, is about it, and not all day long, either.

But the .270 Win. can do that, if one is careful.




GR

FPE is irealavant quote such shows ignorance

Energy/Impact Velocity/Bullet Construction/Shot Placement - are the only things a hunter has.

... so your opinion is irrelevant.




GR

You're forgetting the most important thing: ethics.


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What's it take?? excellent marksmanship, know the wind, and a lot of rounds down range under all conditions, and good judgement, every thing else is BULLSCHITT. Rio7

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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Garandimal
Originally Posted by memtb
We must determine our definition of “long distance”! Here are my personal requirements….. An accurate rifle, using a fairly high BC bullet upwards of .30 caliber, that will give adequate expansion at the pre-determined distance limit involved, lots of trigger time with said rifle, and carefully choosing good atmospheric conditions! When you’ve satisfied all those parameters……having, as in my case, over 2000 ft/pounds of remaining energy at my personal limit of 600 yards is desirable! memtb

Here's to ya.

2000 ft-lbs. at 600 yards, even for a heavy rifle, bumps me out of precision shooting.

1500 ft-lbs. at 600 yards, with a 9.5 lb rifle, is about it, and not all day long, either.

But the .270 Win. can do that, if one is careful.




GR

FPE is irealavant quote such shows ignorance

My question about Minimum FPE numbers has always been what are they based on? I mean, other than the fact that Craig Boddington and others tossed them out 40 years ago.

They're surely not based on any kind of systematic observations made on big game shot with differing levels of FPE. And even Boddington has backed away from the minimum numbers. Because they were based on a "gut feel," and maybe the need to generate ideas for another article. Articles on adequate elk cartridges have been filling that void for a long time now.

These days it seems the more relevant factor is keeping the bullets you're using within the designed velocity ranges. Depending on the bullet construction, size, and shot distance pushing a bullet to the velocity needed for 2000 FPE at the POI could put it outside that envelope for closer shots



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This thread has got to have the longest individual posts made by individual members, eva!

If I catch Covid, I’m gonna read this entire thread, knowing by the time I finish it, I will be over Covid.


😂🦫


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If you don't make it, can I have all your rifles that deliver 2,000 FPE at 600 yards?



A wise man is frequently humbled.

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Originally Posted by Beaver10
This thread has got to have the longest individual posts made by individual members, eva!

If I catch Covid, I’m gonna read this entire thread, knowing by the time I finish it, I will be over Covid.


😂🦫
I’d skip the thread and repaint the boat.

😬😜🦆

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Originally Posted by Beaver10
This thread has got to have the longest individual posts made by individual members, eva!

If I catch Covid, I’m gonna read this entire thread, knowing by the time I finish it, I will be over Covid.


😂🦫

I was just thinking the same thing... Catching up a bit from the weekend.


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Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by Beaver10
This thread has got to have the longest individual posts made by individual members, eva!

If I catch Covid, I’m gonna read this entire thread, knowing by the time I finish it, I will be over Covid.


😂🦫

I was just thinking the same thing... Catching up a bit from the weekend.

I haven't looked for a few days either. What kind of trouble are you guys stirring up now? I was out having fun while you guys talk about having fun...
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Get out and shoot!!!! Even if it's with a pistola at 40 yards. Seems like that is "longrange" for some guys here. Just like making shots easy at 600 with your rifle, 40 yards with your pistol is cake... Carry on with this thread though, I have some guns to clean and brass to prep..


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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This, under adverse conditions: "Can you hit a 8" pie plate every single time at 600 yards? That would be the first thing it would take"

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Originally Posted by AKwolverine
Originally Posted by Beaver10
This thread has got to have the longest individual posts made by individual members, eva!

If I catch Covid, I’m gonna read this entire thread, knowing by the time I finish it, I will be over Covid.


😂🦫
I’d skip the thread and repaint the boat.

😬😜🦆

It’s a good thing that my love for you runs deep.

I will not take offense to your remark, and consider it a solid suggestion that needs to be acted upon, immediately.

Love,

Beav

🦫


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Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by Beaver10
This thread has got to have the longest individual posts made by individual members, eva!

If I catch Covid, I’m gonna read this entire thread, knowing by the time I finish it, I will be over Covid.


😂🦫

I was just thinking the same thing... Catching up a bit from the weekend.

You’ll finish reading the thread by the time your birthday comes around.

Lol

🦫


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Originally Posted by smokepole
If you don't make it, can I have all your rifles that deliver 2,000 FPE at 600 yards?

With or without a cotton sling?

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Originally Posted by Vic_in_Va
Originally Posted by smokepole
If you don't make it, can I have all your rifles that deliver 2,000 FPE at 600 yards?

With or without a cotton sling?

"Sniff," I have no use for crutches.



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That''s the spirit!


Unless you don't have any legs, then of course, you don't......

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Wow. I did not expect such feedback on a forum of reasonable people.

I too appreciate what Mule Deer shared based on decades of hunting. I do not have his experience on game. But I absolutely know about bullet performance from testing jillion of designs. (Read on)

As I said, 300 yards is a long shot for me even on prairie dogs. In big game pursuits I am usually closer because I like intimate hunting.

In one way or another many of us have said the same thing. To paraphrase. ‘It is the bullet which does the work. The correct bullet must be placed in the right place or immoral results happen.’ Correct performance is a combination of bullet design & placement

I used to manufacture bullets. All had bonded cores. I have tinkered with and tested thousands of different bullet designs and observed their behavior under differing conditions.

The best take away I got reading Nathan Foster’s writings was the concept of bullet performance “horizons.” Many common bullets are not designed to expand well below 1900-2000 FPS. Other [rifle] bullets are specifically designed to expand all the way down to 1400 FPS. For rifle bullets 1400fps is about the final horizon. (Yes, I know there are exceptions like the 300 BLK, etc. )

I agree wtih Mule_Deer. Whatever the bullet, it must take out vitals or break bone, or both, or it simply pokes a hole and game suffers a long demise.

Ergo the big, fat, soft bullets I use at brush ranges are useless at extended ranges and visa versa. Bullet design must be matched to the anticipated impact velocity-range.

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Originally Posted by wheelerdan
Wow. I did not expect such feedback on a forum of reasonable people.


And you've been here since 2016, LOL.



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I never thought this thread would get so many responses. I maintain what I said earlier. Flunk Hunting 101 and you'll need to shoot 600 yards.

I've read through this thread and there is good information, and one fellow seems to be full of it - Mr. Kindergarten man.
I remember reading about Taylor's formula and I bought into it. I also remember when 1,000 ft-lb's was considered minimum energy for killing whitetail and 2,000 ft-lb's was considered minimum for elk. There were a lot of theories...
I followed Elmer's writing, and I believed it then and I still think he was right regarding what his options were. All those things are in the past, things changed. MD's experience (other writers too) and writing has had a big influence on what I've come to believe. Though I've hunted up to 6 whitetails per year and 4 pronghorns plus now and then an elk. I believe that a 30-06 with a good 180 grain cup and core would have worked with every game animal I've taken. It's what I've used the most on deer. But in the last 20 years or so I want to try something new every time I go out.
My main shooting at 500 meters (or yards in some cases) were with M1's, M14's and Springfield's all with aperture sights. But I've also shot at PD's at that range and further with big game rifles for practice. It proved to me that shooting at game animals at over 400 yards is not my cup of tea and I prefer 100 yards or so if possible.

Some of the issues with long range shooting is something I don't see discussed much. Those are:
Where did that animal go after it was shot?
Will I be able to find the game?
Will the bullet/load create enough of a blood trail at that distance?
Will I find the game animal during daylight?
Will the game animal run down a ravine, and will I have to carry the meat out?


I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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