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Ring man
Do you love God with all your heart and your Neighbor as yourself?
Do your good works exist simply because they are solely for the good of others or because you derive pleasure from them?
Do you believe that you have arrived at a sinless or near sinless state? Do you believe that you have received a second work of grace? Are you a sinner? Reasonable questions rather than attack. Thank you. 1. As far as I know. 2. a. No. b. Yes. Jesus says, "Let you light shine among men so they may see your good works and glorify God." 3. a. Yes. Remember Apostle Paul standing before the king said, "I stand here with a perfectly good conscience." b. Yes. c. I am a sinner saved by God's Grace so that I might walk in His light and those around may glorify God.
Last edited by Ringman; 09/24/22.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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The hypocrite deceives himself first.
Kent
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Campfire Oracle
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I am a sinner saved by God's Grace *That* is the primary message that you took offense to in the video I posted. Grace is a gift. It's not payment. You can be as "legal" as a human can be and you can't earn it.
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Campfire Ranger
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I am a sinner saved by God's Grace *That* is the primary message that you took offense to in the video I posted. Grace is a gift. It's not payment. You can be as "legal" as a human can be and you can't earn it. You can preach that as long as you want and I will still want to serve God in humble loving obedience. Don't forget, Jesus legalistically obeyed the Father.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Thanks for the answers ringman.
Do you consider yourself a sinner or consider that you sometimes sin? I find that I’m the former rather than the latter no matter how obedient I consider myself on a given day.
A couple of other questions that I was challenged with a few years ago. I think that these get back to the root of what works are and what they are not in regards to our salvation and our daily life.
Does God need our works?
Does our neighbor need our works?
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Campfire Ranger
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I am a sinner saved by God's Grace *That* is the primary message that you took offense to in the video I posted. Grace is a gift. It's not payment. You can be as "legal" as a human can be and you can't earn it. You can preach that as long as you want and I will still want to serve God in humble loving obedience. Don't forget, Jesus legalistically obeyed the Father. Out of gratitude we all “want to serve God in humble loving obedience.” Problem is, we can’t and don’t. Which is why “Jesus legalistically obeyed the Father.” At least if by “legalistically” you mean “perfectly”. He did so because first that’s His nature but He came to do so because anything less would not have paid our debt. It isn’t a matter of desire but a humble sense of one’s inability.
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Campfire Outfitter
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So,..even the Apostle Paul, who God specifically sent to the Gentiles admits that he has a sinful nature.
But Ringman claims to be the only sinless human except for the Messiah.
Good luck with that. So... even the "Apostle" Paul who makes the claim that God sent him to the Gentiles admits that he has a sinful nature. That was pretty nice of him since he decided to jump in front of John the Baptist, Jesus, and all the real publicly chosen apostles. He even got carried off to some level of heaven and had conversations with Jesus who forgot to tell a good bit of his doctrine during his 3 year ministry. Then he got in such hot water with the Christians that the Romans had to extract their agent and haul him off to Rome. There seems to be at least one Apostle Paul in every church. I’ve never understood your stance that Paul preached a different message than Christ. I’ve had a lot of conversations with a lot of people about the Christian faith and as far back as I can remember you are the only person I’ve ever talked to who holds this view. For the sake of understanding you would you mind listing out the bullet points of your view? I wrote you out a pretty long answer but I'm going to hold off sending it. I think you might possibly have your mind made up and just would like to criticize me in front of your fellow Paulines. Anyway I was very tired when I wrote it and I didn't want to walk down to driveway to get my bible out of my truck to get my notes, but just suffice to say I take Jesus' word on the permanence of the law and discount Paul's defection from it for another doctrine. Just read the gospels for all the references on repentance, fruits, works, forgiveness, and hypocrisy and even faith but nothing that jives with Paul's rendition.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire Oracle
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So,..even the Apostle Paul, who God specifically sent to the Gentiles admits that he has a sinful nature.
But Ringman claims to be the only sinless human except for the Messiah.
Good luck with that. So... even the "Apostle" Paul who makes the claim that God sent him to the Gentiles admits that he has a sinful nature. That was pretty nice of him since he decided to jump in front of John the Baptist, Jesus, and all the real publicly chosen apostles. He even got carried off to some level of heaven and had conversations with Jesus who forgot to tell a good bit of his doctrine during his 3 year ministry. Then he got in such hot water with the Christians that the Romans had to extract their agent and haul him off to Rome. There seems to be at least one Apostle Paul in every church. I’ve never understood your stance that Paul preached a different message than Christ. I’ve had a lot of conversations with a lot of people about the Christian faith and as far back as I can remember you are the only person I’ve ever talked to who holds this view. For the sake of understanding you would you mind listing out the bullet points of your view? I wrote you out a pretty long answer but I'm going to hold off sending it. I think you might possibly have your mind made up and just would like to criticize me in front of your fellow Paulines. Anyway I was very tired when I wrote it and I didn't want to walk down to driveway to get my bible out of my truck to get my notes, but just suffice to say I take Jesus' word on the permanence of the law and discount Paul's defection from it for another doctrine. Just read the gospels for all the references on repentance, fruits, works, forgiveness, and hypocrisy and even faith but nothing that jives with Paul's rendition. Paul didn't write Jeremiah 31:31-34, although he quoted it in the book of Hebrews. And then there's Luke 22:20. So, the Old Testament refers to the new covenant. Christ declares it at the Last Supper. Then Paul reiterates it in Hebrews. So, it's not just Paul.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
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The decline of Christianity in America, and the dazzling rise of those who identify as religiously unaffiliated, emphasize something that’s been true for a long time but has really come to light over the last decade or so.
Mainstream Christianity nowadays comes across as weak and defective and pretty indefensible in the public square. The way forward is simple, even though some will find it contentious. It’s original to the earliest Christians and it’s hidden in plain sight in the Gospels and Paul’s epistles.
It clearly works because it’s already been proven to do so.
Once upon a time, members of a tiny Jewish sect called The Way…with the deck overwhelmingly stacked against them…garnered the attention, and eventually, the adoration of the Roman Empire that had previously tried to eradicate it. So maybe the church nowadays oughta follow their lead instead of doing much of what it’s doing today…which clearly isn’t working too good anyway…and take notes from those earliest Christians who are credited with turning not only the Roman Empire upside down, but also eventually evangelizing the world.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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I don't think Christianity was ever coherent since it was invented
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Every human being since Adam has a sinful nature, probably even you!
Paul didn’t just jump in front of anything until he was blinded and divinely called by our risen Lord to become an apostle to the Gentiles. Then Paul was directed to the Arabian Desert by God for 3 years to prepare for his new ministry.
What do you not get about what Holy scripture tells us?!!
Paul was chosen and commissioned by God to become the light to the Gentiles after the Jews rejected and killed Jesus Christ, Acts 13:47-48
Rejecting Paul is rejecting Christ Jesus.
Paul was not an apostle of Israel, like the 12, but he was divinely commissioned directly by the risen Lord to be an apostle to the Gentiles, not the Jews, to found the Church, 1 Corinthians 3:10.
All church doctrine was given to Paul through heavenly revelation by God, Colossians 1:25.
Those who criticize Paul are not Christians. To criticize Paul is to criticize Jesus.
Paul preached what Jesus accomplished for us at the cross. Peter and the other 11 were apostles to Israel only. Rejecting Paul is arrogant apostasy, ignorance, and dangerous stubbornness!
Paul’s gospel of grace is the only way to salvation. I hope there’s at least a dozen Paul’s in every church, and may God in His mercy open your spiritual eyes.
God has blinded many, and they continue to this day to reject Paul’s teachings, 2 Corinthians 4:4 Well said! ........ Excellent reply to a disturbing assertion concerning the rejection of Paul's teachings. Such a rejection is heretical at best.
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So,..even the Apostle Paul, who God specifically sent to the Gentiles admits that he has a sinful nature.
But Ringman claims to be the only sinless human except for the Messiah.
Good luck with that. So... even the "Apostle" Paul who makes the claim that God sent him to the Gentiles admits that he has a sinful nature. That was pretty nice of him since he decided to jump in front of John the Baptist, Jesus, and all the real publicly chosen apostles. He even got carried off to some level of heaven and had conversations with Jesus who forgot to tell a good bit of his doctrine during his 3 year ministry. Then he got in such hot water with the Christians that the Romans had to extract their agent and haul him off to Rome. There seems to be at least one Apostle Paul in every church. I’ve never understood your stance that Paul preached a different message than Christ. I’ve had a lot of conversations with a lot of people about the Christian faith and as far back as I can remember you are the only person I’ve ever talked to who holds this view. For the sake of understanding you would you mind listing out the bullet points of your view? I wrote you out a pretty long answer but I'm going to hold off sending it. I think you might possibly have your mind made up and just would like to criticize me in front of your fellow Paulines. Anyway I was very tired when I wrote it and I didn't want to walk down to driveway to get my bible out of my truck to get my notes, but just suffice to say I take Jesus' word on the permanence of the law and discount Paul's defection from it for another doctrine. Just read the gospels for all the references on repentance, fruits, works, forgiveness, and hypocrisy and even faith but nothing that jives with Paul's rendition. I appreciate your apprehension but I’m not asking to set up an ambush. I’ve never heard this from anyone and I’d guess that I’m better read and studies than most. To save trouble no need for a lengthy description. I’m much more of a bullet point thinker that fills in the gaps after the framework is established. I’d also be happy with a PM. I’ve never been able to get a grip on your view.
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One thing a lot of people don't seem to understand is that you need Jesus' grace on an ongoing basis if you are going to live by the new, stricter covenant.
Someone who's done something like kick a porn habit or one of the nastier, more pernicious sins like pride will understand this. Things that are habitual or compulsively disordered sins are better identified and conquered with the help of grace. You are unlikely to get this grace if you don't at least go to church.
Politics is War by Other Means
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So,..even the Apostle Paul, who God specifically sent to the Gentiles admits that he has a sinful nature.
But Ringman claims to be the only sinless human except for the Messiah.
Good luck with that. So... even the "Apostle" Paul who makes the claim that God sent him to the Gentiles admits that he has a sinful nature. That was pretty nice of him since he decided to jump in front of John the Baptist, Jesus, and all the real publicly chosen apostles. He even got carried off to some level of heaven and had conversations with Jesus who forgot to tell a good bit of his doctrine during his 3 year ministry. Then he got in such hot water with the Christians that the Romans had to extract their agent and haul him off to Rome. There seems to be at least one Apostle Paul in every church. I’ve never understood your stance that Paul preached a different message than Christ. I’ve had a lot of conversations with a lot of people about the Christian faith and as far back as I can remember you are the only person I’ve ever talked to who holds this view. For the sake of understanding you would you mind listing out the bullet points of your view? I wrote you out a pretty long answer but I'm going to hold off sending it. I think you might possibly have your mind made up and just would like to criticize me in front of your fellow Paulines. Anyway I was very tired when I wrote it and I didn't want to walk down to driveway to get my bible out of my truck to get my notes, but just suffice to say I take Jesus' word on the permanence of the law and discount Paul's defection from it for another doctrine. Just read the gospels for all the references on repentance, fruits, works, forgiveness, and hypocrisy and even faith but nothing that jives with Paul's rendition. Paul didn't write Jeremiah 31:31-34, although he quoted it in the book of Hebrews. And then there's Luke 22:20. So, the Old Testament refers to the new covenant. Christ declares it at the Last Supper. Then Paul reiterates it in Hebrews. So, it's not just Paul. There is definitely confusion about old and new covenants. The covenant with Abraham and the convent with Moses get confused. The covenant with Abraham was defined in Genesis and was a covenant of faith for salvation. They looked ahead in faith and we look back in faith. In Roman’s Paul, looking back to Genesis and quoting Moses, states that Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness. Hebrews 11 blows an OT works based religion out of the water.
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One thing a lot of people don't seem to understand is that you need Jesus' grace on an ongoing basis if you are going to live by the new, stricter covenant.
Someone who's done something like kick a porn habit or one of the nastier, more pernicious sins like pride will understand this. Things that are habitual or compulsively disordered sins are better identified and conquered with the help of grace. You are unlikely to get this grace if you don't at least go to church. I’m not familiar with the concept of a stricter covenant. Would you define that? In your second paragraph are you referring to reaching a state of not sinning?
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Campfire Outfitter
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One thing a lot of people don't seem to understand is that you need Jesus' grace on an ongoing basis if you are going to live by the new, stricter covenant.
Someone who's done something like kick a porn habit or one of the nastier, more pernicious sins like pride will understand this. Things that are habitual or compulsively disordered sins are better identified and conquered with the help of grace. You are unlikely to get this grace if you don't at least go to church. I’m not familiar with the concept of a stricter covenant. Would you define that? Matthew 5:21-48. In your second paragraph are you referring to reaching a state of not sinning? That is an "unlikely" state unless you are Jesus or Mary. None of the following actually mean that any of us will achieve perfection on this side of Heaven. But what they do say is that we should strive for perfection. Yes, works are required. We must at the very least avoid sins that Jesus Himself says will bar us from heaven. We can be closer to God by building up (working on) treasurer in Heaven while we are on Earth Matthew 6:19-21. 2 Corinthians 7:1 Hebrews 7:19 Hebrews 12:1 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 2 Timothy 4:7 Philippians 3:13-14 Philippians 4:13 Matthew 24:13 Psalm 60:12 Philippians 2:16 I could go on & on all day, but you get the idea.
Politics is War by Other Means
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Campfire Ranger
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Thanks for the answers ringman.
Do you consider yourself a sinner or consider that you sometimes sin? I find that I’m the former rather than the latter no matter how obedient I consider myself on a given day.
A couple of other questions that I was challenged with a few years ago. I think that these get back to the root of what works are and what they are not in regards to our salvation and our daily life.
Does God need our works?
Does our neighbor need our works? God requires our works. Some neighbors need our works. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God working in you." If you are not working, Whose not working in you?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Regular
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For DBT and MauserMan…..
Perhaps take note that “church” can be seen as two completely different entities. The definition that is seemingly used by you in recent posts can be seen as “human founded religious organizations.”
This is not the same as the “church”…..the worldwide collection of “believers” …..this is the “Body of Christ.”
The Body of Christ is remarkably solid, doctrinely sound and cohesive in their basic beliefs….. and has been for almost 2000 years.
The binder within the “church”…..within the Body of Christ….is the eternal life giving ….indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
You cannot be a member of the Body of Christ by simply “calling yourself a Christian.”
You know, the wheat and tares thing.
Last edited by TF49; 09/25/22.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire Regular
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Another note….. a local “church” organization …. Call it Denomination A…may have true born again believers attending and it may have non-born again “tares” as members. So in Denom A, we may find born again Bob and not born again Terry….. both members of the same “church.”
There may be another denomination…. Call it Denomination B…. Perhaps located Indonesia…. And it may have significant cultural differences with Denom A…. But in the same way, Denom B may have as a member….born again Budi and tare Tagi.
Bob and Budi are Christians within the Body of Christ…. Terry and Tagi are not.
Both the wheat and tares may grow together in the same field, but will indeed be separated at the harvest.
Last edited by TF49; 09/25/22.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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