Christianity could possibly become a minority religion in US as early as 2045…

What do you fellas here think are the causes for the ongoing decline of Christianity in particular in this country…?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/christia...come-minority-religion-decades-study.amp

White people.

Originally Posted by antlers

What do you fellas here think are the causes for the ongoing decline of Christianity in particular in this country…?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/christia...come-minority-religion-decades-study.amp

Easy answer Satan and end times.

The Jews.

Cause folks are beginning to think it's all a money making scam?

Originally Posted by Sauer200

Cause folks are beginning to think it's all a money making scam?

All kidding aside... but when the Pope comes out "pro-Abortion" in the next 6 months... I might just have to agree with the above.

The church (some) have lost their way.

I don't think Catholics or Protestants always see each other as Christians either.

This isn't the first misguided Pope. You're correct, the Church (maybe most) have lost their way.

''New global poll on religion and atheism by WIN-Gallup International has been receiving some attention. The poll, which covered 57 countries containing a solid majority of the world’s population, shows a clear decline in religiosity between 2005 and 2011. Globally, the number of adults claiming to be religious* evidently declined by 9 percent, with the number of atheists increasing by 3 percent.''

A couple of things that could contribute.

They talk about those who “identify as”. Too many times people are defined as x, y or x when any association that makes them such is simply by default. My mom and dad were Christian, we went to church therefore I am a Christian. Since church attendance isn’t the strong social event that it was in years past participation loses its meaning.

Back in the two thousands a guy named Christian Smith did some solid research on faith beliefs of American youth. He found that regardless of Christian denomination or religious affiliation there is little difference in what the average Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish kid believed in relation to God and faith.

The phrase coined based on the research was Therapeutic Moralistic Deism. God wants me to be happy. If I’m a good person I’m good with God. There is a God but God is far removed.

Those two realities likely contribute to the “within the church” contributions to the decline.

Millenials. "Don't judge me."

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

White people.

Originally Posted by Craigster

The Jews.

Nice try, but we are ALL at fault here. ....... ALL!!

Quote

Romans 3:9-18

9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;

11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.

13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”

14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”

15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16 ruin and misery mark their ways,

17 and the way of peace they do not know.”

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Originally Posted by kappa8

Millenials. "Don't judge me."

This is part of it. Millennials don’t participate in anything other than socializing among themselves. Also, look at the garbage this society has become.

What one "identifies" as and what one really is are often vastly different.
Merely professing faith or merely believing in God does not save anyone.
Billy Graham Institute and Barna research estimate that, among Americans, those that are truly born again at less than 20%.
Europe was believed to be around 3-4%.
And this is data from 2 decades ago.

To understand what is going on, one needs to read the Book of Revelations. It's very hard to comprehend, but it explains what's going to happen.

I think you are correct James.

Episcopalian then Nothing..

It will be by Default of not Practicing ..

Two poster child types of Religion going forward was the Bishop of St. John Church in DC after the Insurrection against Trump ..

And the Arch Bishop of DC ..

Then you got that Spiritual Frontman Marxist that Nanny Polonium calls Dad ..

They say everything gets Solved at the End of a Barrel.

Was a Sword and Arrow at one time ..

These cycles seem to repeat themselves..

Boy Scouts Motto

Originally Posted by antlers

What do you fellas here think are the causes for the ongoing decline of Christianity in particular in this country…?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/christia...come-minority-religion-decades-study.amp

All over the World, big nanny-state government and prosperity seem to be causes.

But I think those are only proximate causes. The main driver is that the end of the World is coming soon, whatever "soon" means.

True Christians have ALWAYS been a minority!

I blame the NFL, Coca Cola, and Carhartt

What Bristed said.

It is going to make a big comeback, real soon.

Hard to say...

Tough to figure out why people find organized religion hypocritical...

Why wouldn't they want to join? Real mystery.

Organized religions are the most cliquish groups ever devised. It's all about the money. People go to church on Sunday then act like a hypocrite for the other 6 days of the week.
People do not need religion in order to treat other people with concern and respect.

Originally Posted by antlers

What do you fellas here think are the causes for the ongoing decline of Christianity in particular in this country…?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/christia...come-minority-religion-decades-study.amp

In a lecture I heard a Ph.D. astro-physicist say, "Evolution is a superstition with zero evidence." I am convinced the bombardment of humanism and evolutionary brainwashing over the decades in public school has lead people to fallacially believe millions of years and evolution. Therefore, they no longer believe the God of the Bible.

Evolution is superstition but stories of a 6000 year old earth, an ark, and talking snakes isn't?

See the problem?

Fugg off, Democrat.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

My how Christian of you...and you wonder why nobody wants to join your cult?

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

My how Christian of you...and you wonder why nobody wants to join your cult?

My cult? How sweet of you.

Your Supreme Being in the White House is doing a swell job.

So...continue to fugg off, Democrat.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

My how Christian of you...and you wonder why nobody wants to join your cult?

My cult? How sweet of you.

Your Supreme Being in the White House is doing a swell job.

So...continue to fugg off, Democrat.

I 2nd the motion.

I'm of the opinion that everybody who is supposed to be a Christian is one.

"Ears to hear",..and all that.

Or, you can believe that self aware beings with the ability to fly around in space just kind of spontaneously squirted up out of a barren rock,....and even if you *do* believe that, not to consider it a miracle is evident that you can't think past the end of your nose.

People who don't believe in miracles are having images formed on a piece of meat that makes up their brain via a pair of eyes.

,...and all of that came from a hot ball of gas that eventually cooled down enough to be a rock.

Then some stuff happened and that rock squirted out some beings that took pieces of that rock and built a machine that flew to the moon.

,...and that's the short list.

Life is some pretty amazing stuff. I think something has to be in charge of a rock turning into life. It doesn't "just happen".

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

My how Christian of you...and you wonder why nobody wants to join your cult?

My cult? How sweet of you.

Your Supreme Being in the White House is doing a swell job.

So...continue to fugg off, Democrat.

Have another swig, and repent at church... hypocrite.

All religons are cults, evolution is superstitious...laughing

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

My how Christian of you...and you wonder why nobody wants to join your cult?

My cult? How sweet of you.

Your Supreme Being in the White House is doing a swell job.

So...continue to fugg off, Democrat.

Have another swig, and repent at church... hypocrite.

Me? A hypocrite?

Hahaha! Nice try.

I support hunting for everyone. Not just some fruity cult who worship some àsshole Democrat named Tawney and limit access to average Americans.

Americans who now might not be able to afford to take their kids hunting because of dipshit democrats like yourself who worship the Lead Àsshole in the oval office.

I am no hypocrite.

So endeavor to fugg off, Democrat.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

My how Christian of you...and you wonder why nobody wants to join your cult?

My cult? How sweet of you.

Your Supreme Being in the White House is doing a swell job.

So...continue to fugg off, Democrat.

Have another swig, and repent at church... hypocrite.

Me? A hypocrite?

Hahaha! Nice try.

I support hunting for everyone. Not just some fruity cult who worship some àsshole Democrat named Tawney and limit access to average Americans.

Americans who now might not be able to afford to take their kids hunting because of dipshit democrats like yourself who worship the Lead Àsshole in the oval office.

I am no hypocrite.

So endeavor to fugg off, Democrat.

A true Christian who had read the Bible would never say such things about others.

You wonder why people are leaving the church or not choosing to go?

I hope before you meet your maker you will find forgiveness in your heart.

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

My how Christian of you...and you wonder why nobody wants to join your cult?

Obviously, you don't have a clue about Christianity.

Elijah would do some head chopping, instead of just mean tweets.

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

My how Christian of you...and you wonder why nobody wants to join your cult?

Obviously, you don't have a clue about Christianity.

Elijah would do some head chopping, instead of just mean tweets.

Of course, another fine example of why people are fleeing Christianity...keep up the good work!

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

My how Christian of you...and you wonder why nobody wants to join your cult?

Obviously, you don't have a clue about Christianity.

Elijah would do some head chopping, instead of just mean tweets.

Of course, another fine example of why people are fleeing Christianity...keep up the good work!

Christianity is for warriors and real women, not man-girls.

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

My how Christian of you...and you wonder why nobody wants to join your cult?

Obviously, you don't have a clue about Christianity.

Elijah would do some head chopping, instead of just mean tweets.

Of course, another fine example of why people are fleeing Christianity...keep up the good work!

Christianity is for warriors and real women, not man-girls.

It's your fable, make it as big as you want.

I won't judge you.

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

My how Christian of you...and you wonder why nobody wants to join your cult?

My cult? How sweet of you.

Your Supreme Being in the White House is doing a swell job.

So...continue to fugg off, Democrat.

Have another swig, and repent at church... hypocrite.

Me? A hypocrite?

Hahaha! Nice try.

I support hunting for everyone. Not just some fruity cult who worship some àsshole Democrat named Tawney and limit access to average Americans.

Americans who now might not be able to afford to take their kids hunting because of dipshit democrats like yourself who worship the Lead Àsshole in the oval office.

I am no hypocrite.

So endeavor to fugg off, Democrat.

A true Christian who had read the Bible would never say such things about others.

You wonder why people are leaving the church or not choosing to go?

I hope before you meet your maker you will find forgiveness in your heart.

I never claimed to be real churchy. So go try your passive aggressive female bullshit on your butt buddies at Backcountry Faags and Access Limiters.

You are however a dipshit hunting access limiting Democrat.

So go ahead and repent for worshiping the Lead Dipshit in the Oval Office.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Fugg off, Democrat.

My how Christian of you...and you wonder why nobody wants to join your cult?

My cult? How sweet of you.

Your Supreme Being in the White House is doing a swell job.

So...continue to fugg off, Democrat.

Have another swig, and repent at church... hypocrite.

Me? A hypocrite?

Hahaha! Nice try.

I support hunting for everyone. Not just some fruity cult who worship some àsshole Democrat named Tawney and limit access to average Americans.

Americans who now might not be able to afford to take their kids hunting because of dipshit democrats like yourself who worship the Lead Àsshole in the oval office.

I am no hypocrite.

So endeavor to fugg off, Democrat.

A true Christian who had read the Bible would never say such things about others.

You wonder why people are leaving the church or not choosing to go?

I hope before you meet your maker you will find forgiveness in your heart.

I never claimed to be real churchy. So go try your passive aggressive female bullshit on your butt buddies at Backcountry Faags and Access Limiters.

You are however a dipshit hunting access limiting Democrat.

So go ahead and repent for worshiping the Lead Dipshit in the Oval Office.

I forgive you...but Jesus may not.

Also, if the idea is to increase the size of the christian flock, your approach is doing the exact opposite. I'm afraid God and Jesus would be very disappointed in your approach.

This is why people are turning against Christianity and why atheism and agnostics are growing faster than Christianity.

It's intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer.

Is this how you talk to the faags in your fruity little cult?

A bunch of Land Tawney ball washers?

All getting together to make sure kids dont get started hunting?

Jesus has no problem with me. He doesn't like pricks like yourself that make things tough for children.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Is this how you talk to the faags in your fruity little cult?

A bunch of Land Tawney ball washers?

All getting together to make sure kids dont get started hunting?

Jesus has no problem with me. He doesn't like pricks like yourself that make things tough for children.

Again I will not judge you. Your judgement is between you and Jesus.

I hope you are right that Jesus has no problem with you and forgives your obvious trespasses.

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Is this how you talk to the faags in your fruity little cult?

A bunch of Land Tawney ball washers?

All getting together to make sure kids dont get started hunting?

Jesus has no problem with me. He doesn't like pricks like yourself that make things tough for children.

Again I will not judge you. Your judgement is between you and Jesus.

I hope you are right that Jesus has no problem with you and forgives your obvious trespasses.

You talk like a broad. You have obviously spent too much time with the other fruits in your cult.

Trespasses..thats cute from a access limiter like yourself.

Not uncommon for gals like yourself to be confused, while you make sure the children suffer.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Is this how you talk to the faags in your fruity little cult?

A bunch of Land Tawney ball washers?

All getting together to make sure kids dont get started hunting?

Jesus has no problem with me. He doesn't like pricks like yourself that make things tough for children.

Again I will not judge you. Your judgement is between you and Jesus.

I hope you are right that Jesus has no problem with you and forgives your obvious trespasses.

You talk like a broad. You have obviously spent too much time with the other fruits in your cult.

Trespasses..thats cute from a access limiter like yourself.

Not uncommon for gals like yourself to be confused, while you make sure the children suffer.

Christianity has a history of real child abuse...strange you bring children into a discussion about Christianity? Not sure that was your best decision regarding the discussion.

However it is relevant as yet another reason why many are choosing to abandon Christianity.

A very good reason.

Is that what you are trying to discuss, marble mouth?

I am saying your cult is is full of hypocrites scum bag access limiting Fudds....you and Landy being the worst.

I have done more to promote hunting, especially amongst kids than you could ever hope to achieve.

The rest of you Fudd Democrats have put a real hurt on todays kids. Today's kids. Right now.

So, fugg off...Democrat.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Is that what you are trying to discuss, marble mouth?

I am saying your cult is is full of hypocrites scum bag access limiting Fudds....you and Landy being the worst.

I have done more to promote hunting, especially amongst kids than you could ever hope to achieve.

The rest of you Fudd Democrats have put a real hurt on todays kids. Today's kids. Right now.

So, fugg off...Democrat.

Let's stick to the reason why Christianity is in the tank, the thread topic. If you want to discuss things other than that, start another thread.

Happily....pieces of crap like Buzz have driven more people towards religion because of the policies she and other Democrats support.

Her and Biden helped wreck the economy....and that makes for higher church attendance.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Happily....pieces of crap like Buzz have driven more people towards religion because of the policies she and other Democrats support.

Her and Biden helped wreck the economy....and that makes for higher church attendance.

Not what the facts say, but when have you ever let facts get in the way of your rants?

The op asked a real question about a very real fact.

You should try it sometime.

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Is that what you are trying to discuss, marble mouth?

I am saying your cult is is full of hypocrites scum bag access limiting Fudds....you and Landy being the worst.

I have done more to promote hunting, especially amongst kids than you could ever hope to achieve.

The rest of you Fudd Democrats have put a real hurt on todays kids. Today's kids. Right now.

So, fugg off...Democrat.

Let's stick to the reason why Christianity is in the tank, the thread topic. If you want to discuss things other than that, start another thread.

No, I dont think so. The root cause of our trouble is passive aggressive broads like you and Landy.

You can try and blame religion....but it twats like yourself.

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Happily....pieces of crap like Buzz have driven more people towards religion because of the policies she and other Democrats support.

Her and Biden helped wreck the economy....and that makes for higher church attendance.

Not what the facts say, but when have you ever let facts get in the way of your rants?

Rants?? Listen Linda....I am not ranting.

The children are suffering, they cant go hunting and their parents look for support with the Church.

You are a very useful ballwasher.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Is that what you are trying to discuss, marble mouth?

I am saying your cult is is full of hypocrites scum bag access limiting Fudds....you and Landy being the worst.

I have done more to promote hunting, especially amongst kids than you could ever hope to achieve.

The rest of you Fudd Democrats have put a real hurt on todays kids. Today's kids. Right now.

So, fugg off...Democrat.

Let's stick to the reason why Christianity is in the tank, the thread topic. If you want to discuss things other than that, start another thread.

No, I dont think so. The root cause of our trouble is passive aggressive broads like you and Landy.

You can try and blame religion....but it twats like yourself.

I'm pointing out why Christianity is tanking and you're just in denial about it, that's all.

You're free to believe Christianity is doing just fine even though it's obviously not.

You're entitled to your opinion but not your own set of facts.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Happily....pieces of crap like Buzz have driven more people towards religion because of the policies she and other Democrats support.

Her and Biden helped wreck the economy....and that makes for higher church attendance.

Not what the facts say, but when have you ever let facts get in the way of your rants?

Rants?? Listen Linda....I am not ranting.

The children are suffering, they cant go hunting and their parents look for support with the Church.

You are a very useful ballwasher.

Maybe the various Christian churchs could pay for a hunting lease instead of a couple million dollar church and paying Franklin Graham $750k a year?

If it is suffering anywhere, it is because of your Democrat cult and your Leader Dear Biden.

The hard times you usher in bring people back to religion.

You have no facts, you are an irrational broad who limits hunting access for kids.

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Happily....pieces of crap like Buzz have driven more people towards religion because of the policies she and other Democrats support.

Her and Biden helped wreck the economy....and that makes for higher church attendance.

Not what the facts say, but when have you ever let facts get in the way of your rants?

Rants?? Listen Linda....I am not ranting.

The children are suffering, they cant go hunting and their parents look for support with the Church.

You are a very useful ballwasher.

Maybe the church could pay for a hunting lease instead of a couple million dollar church and paying Franklin graham $750k a year?

What? So ballwashers like yourself can close it back up? Only for the rest of your fruity little club members to hunt on??

Yeah, naw.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Happily....pieces of crap like Buzz have driven more people towards religion because of the policies she and other Democrats support.

Her and Biden helped wreck the economy....and that makes for higher church attendance.

Not what the facts say, but when have you ever let facts get in the way of your rants?

Rants?? Listen Linda....I am not ranting.

The children are suffering, they cant go hunting and their parents look for support with the Church.

You are a very useful ballwasher.

Maybe the church could pay for a hunting lease instead of a couple million dollar church and paying Franklin graham $750k a year?

What? So ballwashers like yourself can close it back up? Only for the rest of your fruity little club members to hunt on??

Yeah, naw.

Yeah, huh?

You need to organize your thoughts before posting you make no sense.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

If it is suffering anywhere, it is because of your Democrat cult and your Leader Dear Biden.

The hard times you usher in bring people back to religion.

You have no facts, you are an irrational broad who limits hunting access for kids.

Did you read the op's link? Is the fox news story not factual?

Oh, I think it is...no matter how much you choose to deny it.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/christia...come-minority-religion-decades-study.amp

Oh, I think it isn't.

I do think you are a passive aggressive bitch however.

Remember how your other Idol, Hillary was gonna win it in a walk?

Big Fox News supporter now Buzzie??

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Oh, I think it isn't.

I do think you are a passive aggressive bitch however.

Remember how your other Idol, Hillary was gonna win it in a walk?

Big Fox News supporter now Buzzie??

I read news from many sources including fox, bbc, npr, a couple dozen newspapers, science journals, etc. etc. Not really a fan of television news of any kind though, with the exception of local tv news for local stories.

I believe this particular story you don't happen to believe is based on some sound facts.

Christianity is, in fact, tanking and for many of the reasons pointed out on this thread.

Is what it is.

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Oh, I think it isn't.

I do think you are a passive aggressive bitch however.

Remember how your other Idol, Hillary was gonna win it in a walk?

Big Fox News supporter now Buzzie??

I read news from many sources including fox, bbc, npr, a couple dozen newspapers, science journals, etc. etc. Not really a fan of television news of any kind though, with the exception of local tv news for local stories.

I believe this particular story you don't happen to believe is based on some sound facts.

Yeah, more bullshit from the Democrat. Comes so naturally for you.

Probably all the kids that can't go hunting now because of Democrats like yourself, might find themselves heading back to Youth Groups.

Today, the "damage" caused by Christianity is a mere boil on the ass of the real damage caused by Democrats such as yourself.

Fact.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Oh, I think it isn't.

I do think you are a passive aggressive bitch however.

Remember how your other Idol, Hillary was gonna win it in a walk?

Big Fox News supporter now Buzzie??

I read news from many sources including fox, bbc, npr, a couple dozen newspapers, science journals, etc. etc. Not really a fan of television news of any kind though, with the exception of local tv news for local stories.

I believe this particular story you don't happen to believe is based on some sound facts.

Yeah, more bullshit from the Democrat. Comes so naturally for you.

Probably all the kids that can't go hunting now because of Democrats like yourself, might find themselves heading back to Youth Groups.

Today, the "damage" caused by Christianity is a mere boil on the ass of the real damage caused by Democrats such as yourself.

Fact.

Deny the op's link all you want.

Christianity is tanking, just the way it is.

Nobody likes hypocrisy, in particular the hypocrisy from organized religion.

In some ways it's really too bad, but religion has done it to themselves and, like you, choose to live in denial about it.

Just the way the ball bounces I reckon.

This is driven largely by the younger generation leaving the church. Not surprised at all.

Originally Posted by Calvin

This is driven largely by the younger generation leaving the church. Not surprised at all.

True story.

Someone earlier in the post said it. We are at fault. How many here are baptized? Did your parents fail to raise you in the church as they promised? Did your godparents step in as they promised? How many here went through confirmation and made promises as members of the church? How many have lived.up to those promises? How many of us have had our children baptized and failed to live.up to our promises we made before God? The answers are before us as are the solutions. We simply need to commit to living in accordance with the promises we made for ourselves and on behalf of others.

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Oh, I think it isn't.

I do think you are a passive aggressive bitch however.

Remember how your other Idol, Hillary was gonna win it in a walk?

Big Fox News supporter now Buzzie??

I read news from many sources including fox, bbc, npr, a couple dozen newspapers, science journals, etc. etc. Not really a fan of television news of any kind though, with the exception of local tv news for local stories.

I believe this particular story you don't happen to believe is based on some sound facts.

Yeah, more bullshit from the Democrat. Comes so naturally for you.

Probably all the kids that can't go hunting now because of Democrats like yourself, might find themselves heading back to Youth Groups.

Today, the "damage" caused by Christianity is a mere boil on the ass of the real damage caused by Democrats such as yourself.

Fact.

Deny the op's link all you want.

Christianity is tanking, just the way it is.

Nobody likes hypocrisy, in particular the hypocrisy from organized religion.

In some ways it's really too bad, but religion has done it to themselves and, like you, choose to live in denial about it.

Just the way the ball bounces I reckon.

So objective!

Hahaha! You are a fùcking fraud.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Oh, I think it isn't.

I do think you are a passive aggressive bitch however.

Remember how your other Idol, Hillary was gonna win it in a walk?

Big Fox News supporter now Buzzie??

I read news from many sources including fox, bbc, npr, a couple dozen newspapers, science journals, etc. etc. Not really a fan of television news of any kind though, with the exception of local tv news for local stories.

I believe this particular story you don't happen to believe is based on some sound facts.

Yeah, more bullshit from the Democrat. Comes so naturally for you.

Probably all the kids that can't go hunting now because of Democrats like yourself, might find themselves heading back to Youth Groups.

Today, the "damage" caused by Christianity is a mere boil on the ass of the real damage caused by Democrats such as yourself.

Fact.

Deny the op's link all you want.

Christianity is tanking, just the way it is.

Nobody likes hypocrisy, in particular the hypocrisy from organized religion.

In some ways it's really too bad, but religion has done it to themselves and, like you, choose to live in denial about it.

Just the way the ball bounces I reckon.

So objective!

Hahaha! You are a fùcking fraud.

Argue with the op, he posted the article not me.

I do agree with the facts presented in the article however.

You seem to be the only one posting that's in denial about it. Others are looking to the reasons why Christianity is tanking. Which is the first step to take if you care about reversing the trend.

Appears folks are smartening up and realizing the whole “religion “ thing is bullshiit.👊🏻

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Oh, I think it isn't.

I do think you are a passive aggressive bitch however.

Remember how your other Idol, Hillary was gonna win it in a walk?

Big Fox News supporter now Buzzie??

I read news from many sources including fox, bbc, npr, a couple dozen newspapers, science journals, etc. etc. Not really a fan of television news of any kind though, with the exception of local tv news for local stories.

I believe this particular story you don't happen to believe is based on some sound facts.

Yeah, more bullshit from the Democrat. Comes so naturally for you.

Probably all the kids that can't go hunting now because of Democrats like yourself, might find themselves heading back to Youth Groups.

Today, the "damage" caused by Christianity is a mere boil on the ass of the real damage caused by Democrats such as yourself.

Fact.

Deny the op's link all you want.

Christianity is tanking, just the way it is.

Nobody likes hypocrisy, in particular the hypocrisy from organized religion.

In some ways it's really too bad, but religion has done it to themselves and, like you, choose to live in denial about it.

Just the way the ball bounces I reckon.

So objective!

Hahaha! You are a fùcking fraud.

Argue with the op, he posted the article not me.

I do agree with the facts presented in the article however.

No...I will argue with you because you support a cult far more dangerous and currently damaging than Christianity.

And you are a fùcking fraud.

Originally Posted by Judman

Appears folks are smartening up and realizing the whole “religion “ thing is bullshiit.👊🏻

I am not religious...but it ain't bullshit.

Buzzie and Backcountry Fudgepackers and the Democrats are bullshit.

They will try and deflect from the damage by saying Religion is bad.....but that's like worrying about a candle on the mantle while your house burns down.

No free rides for cùnts like Buzzie.

Originally Posted by Judman

Appears folks are smartening up and realizing the whole “religion “ thing is bullshiit.👊🏻

I wouldn’t go that far. I would say that the younger generation is more into following lgbtq whatever on social media platforms and living about 180 from any type or Christian lifestyle.

A good old fashioned depression, war, or hard times generally turns people back to religion.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Oh, I think it isn't.

I do think you are a passive aggressive bitch however.

Remember how your other Idol, Hillary was gonna win it in a walk?

Big Fox News supporter now Buzzie??

I read news from many sources including fox, bbc, npr, a couple dozen newspapers, science journals, etc. etc. Not really a fan of television news of any kind though, with the exception of local tv news for local stories.

I believe this particular story you don't happen to believe is based on some sound facts.

Yeah, more bullshit from the Democrat. Comes so naturally for you.

Probably all the kids that can't go hunting now because of Democrats like yourself, might find themselves heading back to Youth Groups.

Today, the "damage" caused by Christianity is a mere boil on the ass of the real damage caused by Democrats such as yourself.

Fact.

Deny the op's link all you want.

Christianity is tanking, just the way it is.

Nobody likes hypocrisy, in particular the hypocrisy from organized religion.

In some ways it's really too bad, but religion has done it to themselves and, like you, choose to live in denial about it.

Just the way the ball bounces I reckon.

So objective!

Hahaha! You are a fùcking fraud.

Argue with the op, he posted the article not me.

I do agree with the facts presented in the article however.

No...I will argue with you because you support a cult far more dangerous and currently damaging than Christianity.

And you are a fùcking fraud.

You're arguing with yourself.

Christianity is going to continue to tank because of your inability to realize and admit the problems.

The only frauds, are the fake Christians that deny facts and sit around making excuses for why people are leaving Christianity in the dust/rearview.

Not my problem, I like everyone to have the freedom to choose to practice religion or not.

Originally Posted by antlers

What do you fellas here think are the causes for the ongoing decline of Christianity in particular in this country…?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/christia...come-minority-religion-decades-study.amp

Because many are called, but few are chosen?

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by Judman

Appears folks are smartening up and realizing the whole “religion “ thing is bullshiit.👊🏻

I am not religious...but it ain't bullshit.

Buzzie and Backcountry Fudgepackers and the Democrats are bullshit.

They will try and deflect from the damage by saying Religion is bad.....but that's like worrying about a candle on the mantle while your house burns down.

No free rides for cùnts like Buzzie.

Good thing you're not ranting...

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by Judman

Appears folks are smartening up and realizing the whole “religion “ thing is bullshiit.👊🏻

I am not religious...but it ain't bullshit.

Buzzie and Backcountry Fudgepackers and the Democrats are bullshit.

They will try and deflect from the damage by saying Religion is bad.....but that's like worrying about a candle on the mantle while your house burns down.

No free rides for cùnts like Buzzie.

Good thing you're not ranting...

I am not ranting.

You are just a stupid dangerous cùnt. That's all.

Originally Posted by Calvin

Originally Posted by Judman

Appears folks are smartening up and realizing the whole “religion “ thing is bullshiit.👊🏻

I wouldn’t go that far. I would say that the younger generation is more into following lgbtq whatever on social media platforms and living about 180 from any type or Christian lifestyle.

A good old fashioned depression, war, or hard times generally turns people back to religion.

Yep, almost by design. Funny how many people folks find religion in times of sickness, divorce, hard times etc. some of the most evil folks I’ve came across have been “religious”. SMH

Never forget a high school buddy of mine worked for a septic company outta high school. Got a service call to the biggest church in Lewis county. Said there were more rubbers in that septic system than he’s ever seen! Haha still makes me laugh. We’re all entitled to our opinions, the power of prayer is funny, it’s called shiithouse luck, fate, no more no less.

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad

Oh, I think it isn't.

I do think you are a passive aggressive bitch however.

Remember how your other Idol, Hillary was gonna win it in a walk?

Big Fox News supporter now Buzzie??

I read news from many sources including fox, bbc, npr, a couple dozen newspapers, science journals, etc. etc. Not really a fan of television news of any kind though, with the exception of local tv news for local stories.

I believe this particular story you don't happen to believe is based on some sound facts.

Yeah, more bullshit from the Democrat. Comes so naturally for you.

Probably all the kids that can't go hunting now because of Democrats like yourself, might find themselves heading back to Youth Groups.

Today, the "damage" caused by Christianity is a mere boil on the ass of the real damage caused by Democrats such as yourself.

Fact.

Deny the op's link all you want.

Christianity is tanking, just the way it is.

Nobody likes hypocrisy, in particular the hypocrisy from organized religion.

In some ways it's really too bad, but religion has done it to themselves and, like you, choose to live in denial about it.

Just the way the ball bounces I reckon.

So objective!

Hahaha! You are a fùcking fraud.

Argue with the op, he posted the article not me.

I do agree with the facts presented in the article however.

No...I will argue with you because you support a cult far more dangerous and currently damaging than Christianity.

And you are a fùcking fraud.

You're arguing with yourself.

Christianity is going to continue to tank because of your inability to realize and admit the problems.

The only frauds, are the fake Christians that deny facts and sit around making excuses for why people are leaving Christianity in the dust/rearview.

Not my problem, I like everyone to have the freedom to choose to practice religion or not.

Right....you like people to be able to choose.

Go get your Omicron booster you lying piece of shìt.

Originally Posted by Judman

Appears folks are smartening up and realizing the whole “religion “ thing is bullshiit.👊🏻

God is Real, Christ is real. I agree, as a whole, religion is BS.

The scariest scripture in the Bible for the "religious":

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Please note the OP references the US not the globe.

Christianity is and has always been a religion that thrives under oppression & suppression.

In the Far East, particularly China, as well as in Africa & South America Christianity is doing extraordinarily well.

The problem with prosperity like we have here is that we (mankind) worship the gifts rather than the giver. This is the pattern you see throughout the OT as Israel is blessed by God then turns away, is punished for her unfaithfulness, and is once again blessed by God so in desperation turns back.

We’re in a trough while in other nations Christian’s’ suffering is just the way it’s always been.

We have new religions (Baals) cropping up like DEI SJW LBTQ-Infinity self definition movements that have claimed our allegiance.

It’s just a natural cycle that shows how unfaithful men are, and how faithful to His promises God is.

Originally Posted by Judman

Appears folks are smartening up and realizing the whole “religion “ thing is bullshiit.👊🏻

I have spoken with those who can beat me in an IQ test that say, "I don't believe in God, I believe in science."

Their statements do not bear much scrutiny.

No amount of science has built a living cell.
No amount of science has explained consciousness.

Religion says God gave life and God gave you a spirit.

God is the better model for explaining these things.

Originally Posted by Tyrone

All over the World, big nanny-state government and prosperity seem to be causes. But I think those are only proximate causes.

Does ‘the Church’…the body of believers, individually and collectively…bear any responsibility at all……?

Originally Posted by Calvin

This is driven largely by the younger generation leaving the church. Not surprised at all.

When they come home from college with real academic questions about the faith of Christianity (for example), and they’re given Sunday School answers, does that have a negative impact…? When they’re told they must believe in the literal 6 day creation in Genesis (for example) in order to believe The Gospel, does that have a negative impact…? When they see Christians selectively ranking sin, and focusing on the moral failures of others while ignoring their own moral failures, and pretending that someone else’s sin is worse than their own sin, does that have a negative impact…?

Originally Posted by bluefish

Someone earlier in the post said it. We are at fault. How many here are baptized? Did your parents fail to raise you in the church as they promised? Did your godparents step in as they promised? How many here went through confirmation and made promises as members of the church? How many have lived.up to those promises? How many of us have had our children baptized and failed to live.up to our promises we made before God? The answers are before us as are the solutions. We simply need to commit to living in accordance with the promises we made for ourselves and on behalf of others.

Nailed it.

Proverbs 22:6
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

It is a parental responsibility that has been grossly neglected. Goes right to the heart of the destruction of the family unit.

Originally Posted by bluefish

Someone earlier in the post said it. We are at fault. How many here are baptized? Not I Did your parents fail to raise you in the church as they promised? What promise? Did your godparents step in as they promised? Godparents? How many here went through confirmation and made promises as members of the church? again, No How many have lived.up to those promises? Only promises made were to my wife via wedding vows. And Yes, they have been honored for 40 years How many of us have had our children baptized and failed to live.up to our promises we made before God? I absolutely did not have my children baptized. Baptism is an individual choice. It is entirely up to the individual........when he/she reaches a level of maturity where he/she is capable of making such a choice. No one else can make that choice for them. The answers are before us as are the solutions. We simply need to commit to living in accordance with the promises we made for ourselves and on behalf of others.

My conscience is clear. My kids have been free to choose their religious affiliations, or not.

Bluefish, I think that your thoughts toward religion and baptism are as far from mainstream as are Jag's and Ringman's.

The only people I have heard talk that way are a very few "old school" Catholics.

Hell, I don't know. Maybe you are the one who got it right. Maybe God does exist and yours is the only way to appease Him. But, to me, it seems more likely to be THE way to keep the pews and the coffers filled. Priests have to be kept fat and happy.

But I am forever skeptical.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

But I am forever skeptical.

You do not have to live your life that way. Peace can be found through belief in God. It is a personal relationship, not between you and some group/organization/leader.

2 Timothy 1:12
"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day."

I respect your right to not be convinced, I only hope that you too can feel the gift of peace which has been made available to mankind.

Originally Posted by BuzzH

I'm pointing out why Christianity is tanking and you're just in denial about it, that's all.

You are the perfect example. Feminized men in a feminized society believe in feminized morality and reject masculinity.

So what’s the majority religion gonna be? Woke Communism?

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by BuzzH

I'm pointing out why Christianity is tanking and you're just in denial about it, that's all.

You are the perfect example. Feminized men in a feminized society believe in feminized morality and reject masculinity.

Jesus was a pretty masculine looking dude. Wore a dress, sandals, and had real nice hair. Seemed to love everybody around him and hung out with mostly other dudes.

Pretty feminine by today's standards, wouldn't you agree?..you have any problem with that?

I don't.

Originally Posted by Futura

So what’s the majority religion gonna be? Woke Communism?

Not a bad description. But I'd just call it "Materialism".

Let’s get one thing straight.

Humanity is, by its nature, religious.

The OP said that the US is growing less and less Christian... Duh. Anyone who couldn’t see that coming 40 yrs ago has serious isssues.

But we are NOT becoming less religious.

Wokeness is a religion.

Scientistic Materialism is a religion.

We all have to have a narrative we live within which gives coherence to our continued existence; those narratives are religions. Everyone has one, tho some who aren’t so intellectually honest deny they do.

They’re whistling passed the graveyard.

Originally Posted by WTM45

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

But I am forever skeptical.

You do not have to live your life that way. Peace can be found through belief in God. It is a personal relationship, not between you and some group/organization/leader.

2 Timothy 1:12
"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day."

I respect your right to not be convinced, I only hope that you too can feel the gift of peace which has been made available to mankind.

Believe me. I feel peaceful.

Belief is not a choice. It is, or it is not.

Originally Posted by efw

Let’s get one thing straight.

Humanity is, by its nature, religious.

The OP said that the US is growing less and less Christian... Duh. Anyone who couldn’t see that coming 40 yrs ago has serious isssues.

But we are NOT becoming less religious.

Wokeness is a religion.

Scientistic Materialism is a religion.

We all have to have a narrative we live within which gives coherence to our continued existence; those narratives are religions. Everyone has one, tho some who aren’t so intellectually honest deny they do.

They’re whistling passed the graveyard.

I disagree. Do not religions by definition require faith?

When a belief is founded on hard data and proven facts, it is not a religion. Most importantly, when that belief is subject to modification, change, or even abandonment subject to new data, it definitely is not a religion.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Believe me. I feel peaceful.

Glad to hear that. You seem to be a man who has lived your life well with purpose and honor while raising strong children to be good citizens.
Continued health and happiness!

Originally Posted by WTM45

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Believe me. I feel peaceful.

Glad to hear that. You seem to be a man who has lived your life well with purpose and honor while raising strong children to be good citizens.
Continued health and happiness!

Thank you

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by efw

Let’s get one thing straight.

Humanity is, by its nature, religious.

The OP said that the US is growing less and less Christian... Duh. Anyone who couldn’t see that coming 40 yrs ago has serious isssues.

But we are NOT becoming less religious.

Wokeness is a religion.

Scientistic Materialism is a religion.

We all have to have a narrative we live within which gives coherence to our continued existence; those narratives are religions. Everyone has one, tho some who aren’t so intellectually honest deny they do.

They’re whistling passed the graveyard.

I disagree. Do not religions by definition require faith?

When a belief is founded on hard data and proven facts, it is not a religion. Most importantly, when that belief is subject to modification, change, or even abandonment subject to new data, it definitely is not a religion.

A) how do you define “faith”?

B) how do you define “hard data”?

Your entire set of objections above places as a foundational subject of faith that you think rationally, that you have the ability to process data in a (relatively) objective manner, and make predictions based upon that processing.

Objective based upon what? What is the objective standard against which you judge your own conclusions? Is it “just turtles all the way down”?

Ultimately everyone is religious. You included. You place your faith in your rational faculties as reliable. You believe in your mind and in the order of the universe.

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Christianity has a history of real child abuse...strange you bring children into a discussion about Christianity? Not sure that was your best decision regarding the discussion.

However it is relevant as yet another reason why many are choosing to abandon Christianity.

A very good reason.

They all reject Christianity for the same reason. They want to be in charge of their own lives. Any excuse reason will be good enough.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

I disagree. Do not religions by definition require faith?

When a belief is founded on hard data and proven facts, it is not a religion.

Where is the hard data that explains how self aware beings made out of meat spontaneously squirted up out of a chunk of rock?

Some people might say, "Well,...lightning struck a mud puddle and it caused the first one celled life form to exist."

Well,...okay,....that's a bit hard to digest all by itself. Lightning strikes stuff all the time. But I've never heard anybody say that it creates even an extremely primitive life form when it does so. Lightning struck a tree next door a while ago. Not the first tadpole turned up as a result of it.

But anyway,...what force caused that original one celled live form to turn into a Peacock,...let alone a human being?

Humans attempt to explain the unexplainable with science.

Science has its place. But it resorts to bullshit when it attempts to explain the origin of even extremely basic life forms.

It doesn't even try to explain how a lump of meat produces consciousness.

Originally Posted by efw

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by efw

Let’s get one thing straight.

Humanity is, by its nature, religious.

The OP said that the US is growing less and less Christian... Duh. Anyone who couldn’t see that coming 40 yrs ago has serious isssues.

But we are NOT becoming less religious.

Wokeness is a religion.

Scientistic Materialism is a religion.

We all have to have a narrative we live within which gives coherence to our continued existence; those narratives are religions. Everyone has one, tho some who aren’t so intellectually honest deny they do.

They’re whistling passed the graveyard.

I disagree. Do not religions by definition require faith?

When a belief is founded on hard data and proven facts, it is not a religion. Most importantly, when that belief is subject to modification, change, or even abandonment subject to new data, it definitely is not a religion.

A) how do you define “faith”?

B) how do you define “hard data”?

Your entire set of objections above places as a foundational subject of faith that you think rationally, that you have the ability to process data in a (relatively) objective manner, and make predictions based upon that processing.

Objective based upon what? What is the objective standard against which you judge your own conclusions? Is it “just turtles all the way down”?

Ultimately everyone is religious. You included. You place your faith in your rational faculties as reliable. You believe in your mind and in the order of the universe.

You are correct in as much that when I see two apples, and then add two more apples, I now believe I see four apples.

You may call that faith. I call it hard data.

George is and was right.

Originally Posted by LightninHopkins

George is and was right.

George Carlin was a funny guy. I enjoy his routines.

He blew up his heart doing cocaine.

I don't think he had a talent for theology.

Originally Posted by Bristoe

Some people might say, "Well,...lightning struck a mud puddle and it caused the first one celled life form to exist."

Well,...okay,....that's a bit hard to digest all by itself. Lighting strikes stuff all the time. But I've never heard anybody say that it creates even an extremely primitive life form when it does so. Lightning struck a tree next door a while ago. Not the first tadpole turned up as a result of it.

But anyway,...what force caused that original one celled live form to turn into a Peacock,...let alone a human being.

Humans attempt to explain the unexplainable with science.

Science has its place. But it resorts to bullshit when it attempts to explain the origin of even extremely basic life forms.

It doesn't even try to explain how a lump of meat produces consciousness.

B, I will be the first to admit: We really do not know how life originated on this planet. Or for that matter the origin of the Universe.

What we do have is a few people who have written theories which explain how they think it MIGHT have happened.

But we do have a pretty good understanding of the last several hundred million years. And a very good understanding of the last 66 million years since almost all terrestrial life became extinct on this planet.

Can you explain how those surviving mouse like mammals became the varied and enormous class we know today as mammalia, including human kind.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by Bristoe

Some people might say, "Well,...lightning struck a mud puddle and it caused the first one celled life form to exist."

Well,...okay,....that's a bit hard to digest all by itself. Lighting strikes stuff all the time. But I've never heard anybody say that it creates even an extremely primitive life form when it does so. Lightning struck a tree next door a while ago. Not the first tadpole turned up as a result of it.

But anyway,...what force caused that original one celled live form to turn into a Peacock,...let alone a human being.

Humans attempt to explain the unexplainable with science.

Science has its place. But it resorts to bullshit when it attempts to explain the origin of even extremely basic life forms.

It doesn't even try to explain how a lump of meat produces consciousness.

B, I will be the first to admit: We really do not know how life originated on this planet. Or for that matter the origin of the Universe.

What we do have is a few people who have written theories which explain how they think it MIGHT have happened.

But we do have a pretty good understanding of the last several hundred million years. And a very good understanding of the last 66 million years since almost all terrestrial life became extinct on this planet.

Can you explain how those surviving mouse like mammals became the varied and enormous class we know today as mammalia, including human kind.

No. I can't explain how a rock turned into a mouse.

Maybe lightning struck and caused Mickey and Minnie to pop up out of a mud puddle.

Truth: when it comes to faith, nobody can agree on much.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by Bristoe

Some people might say, "Well,...lightning struck a mud puddle and it caused the first one celled life form to exist."

Well,...okay,....that's a bit hard to digest all by itself. Lighting strikes stuff all the time. But I've never heard anybody say that it creates even an extremely primitive life form when it does so. Lightning struck a tree next door a while ago. Not the first tadpole turned up as a result of it.

But anyway,...what force caused that original one celled live form to turn into a Peacock,...let alone a human being.

Humans attempt to explain the unexplainable with science.

Science has its place. But it resorts to bullshit when it attempts to explain the origin of even extremely basic life forms.

It doesn't even try to explain how a lump of meat produces consciousness.

B, I will be the first to admit: We really do not know how life originated on this planet. Or for that matter the origin of the Universe.

What we do have is a few people who have written theories which explain how they think it MIGHT have happened.

But we do have a pretty good understanding of the last several hundred million years. And a very good understanding of the last 66 million years since almost all terrestrial life became extinct on this planet.

Can you explain how those surviving mouse like mammals became the varied and enormous class we know today as mammalia, including human kind.

Articles of faith which you believe based upon some objective reasoning in which you have faith.

Again, turtles all the way down with “science” and faith in the reliance upon your rationality replacing what you’d admit is religious belief.

We don’t understand anything; we can’t even define what life or consciousness are much less understand their origins.

Faith in theories by guys you believe to be smart is still faith.

"Pretend" answers don't solve anything.

True science is amazing stuff. When science tries to explain all of existence with a Big Bang theory it steps out of its lane. That’s a whole lot of blind faith, speculation and guessing with a little bit of science sprinkled in.

Originally Posted by TheLastLemming76

True science is amazing stuff. When science tries to explain all of existence with a Big Bang theory it steps out of its lane. That’s a whole lot of blind faith, speculation and guessing with a little bit of science sprinkled in.

Amen brother

The Big Bang Theory has recently been debunked by the new Hubble space telescope. Now scientists are confused on the origin of the universe. Some scientists say there is more evidence proving creation than evolution. They can't explain how simple granite rock exists. It has 5% uranium perfectly mixed into it. The only way they can explain it is that while it was in liquid state it instantly froze. ?? They have tried to melt it and reform it in a lab and it can't be done. Some now believe it was instantly made.

Originally Posted by Dixie_Dude

The Big Bang Theory has recently been debunked by the new Hubble space telescope.

No it hasn't.

The Hubble space telescope is not all that new anymore either.

more and more people are atheist/agnostic
church memberships are declining all over

muslims are rapidly increasing in numbers and spreading those numbers all around the world
it's not immigration, it's an invasion

Originally Posted by TheLastLemming76

True science is amazing stuff. When science tries to explain all of existence with a Big Bang theory it steps out of its lane. That’s a whole lot of blind faith, speculation and guessing with a little bit of science sprinkled in.

Big Bang theory is based on observation. There may be more going on, so it may be modified accordingly.

That's how science works.

Unlike faith - which is the pretence of having answers - science is a work in progress.

Originally Posted by Bristoe

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by Bristoe

Some people might say, "Well,...lightning struck a mud puddle and it caused the first one celled life form to exist."

Well,...okay,....that's a bit hard to digest all by itself. Lighting strikes stuff all the time. But I've never heard anybody say that it creates even an extremely primitive life form when it does so. Lightning struck a tree next door a while ago. Not the first tadpole turned up as a result of it.

But anyway,...what force caused that original one celled live form to turn into a Peacock,...let alone a human being.

Humans attempt to explain the unexplainable with science.

Science has its place. But it resorts to bullshit when it attempts to explain the origin of even extremely basic life forms.

It doesn't even try to explain how a lump of meat produces consciousness.

B, I will be the first to admit: We really do not know how life originated on this planet. Or for that matter the origin of the Universe.

What we do have is a few people who have written theories which explain how they think it MIGHT have happened.

But we do have a pretty good understanding of the last several hundred million years. And a very good understanding of the last 66 million years since almost all terrestrial life became extinct on this planet.

Can you explain how those surviving mouse like mammals became the varied and enormous class we know today as mammalia, including human kind.

No. I can't explain how a rock turned into a mouse.

Maybe lightning struck and caused Mickey and Minnie to pop up out of a mud puddle.

Chemistry involves far more than 'rocks.'

Once again, As for me, and my house, we will Serve The Lord.

Big bang is objective and provable?

Seriously……as long as you embrace the paradigm. I do believe thou dost like and revel in academic arguments.

Originally Posted by IZH27

Big bang is objective and provable?

Seriously……as long as you embrace the paradigm. I do believe thou dost like and revel in academic arguments.

AND OBSERVABLE

Repeatable?

Wait a few billion years it’ll happen again.

But that isn’t faith

Romans 1

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Originally Posted by JGRaider

Romans 1

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 1 is the red pill.

Originally Posted by IZH27

Big bang is objective and provable?

Yes, it's the best model that we have. Science is open to falsibility, religion takes advantage of non-falsibility.

So who caused the Big Bang? All energy, substance, and atomic molecular activity started in a flash. Sounds like something only God could do.😊

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm

Originally Posted by IZH27

Big bang is objective and provable?

Yes, it's the best model that we have. Science is open to falsibility, religion takes advantage of non-falsibility.

The Big Bang theory is based on the observable expansion of the Universe for which no one but the possible exception of God was around to witness. One thing is for certain, science has shown that "God's creation" is much older and grander than our ancestors ever imagined. Can we agree on this?

'God's Creation' is an assumption. First it needs to be shown that there is a God.

Originally Posted by DBT

'God's Creation' is an assumption. First it needs to be shown that there is a God.

It's a leap of faith.

Big bang is BS. What went bang? Where did the matter come from to begin with? Atheists have faith that there is no God. I have faith there is a God. If they are right, I guess I missed out on some things. If I’m right, they spend eternity in hell. How much of a gambler are you?

Gambler?????

Gambling would assume one has a choice in the matter.

Can you choose to believe there is no wrong in purposely harming a child?

Can you choose to believe dogs or horses are more intelligent than humans?

Y'all think America still gonna exist in its current configuration come 23 years? That's a big assumption.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Gambler?????

Gambling would assume one has a choice in the matter.

Can you choose to believe there is no wrong in purposely harming a child?

Can you choose to believe dogs or horses are more intelligent than humans?

Sure you can. In the middle east, kids are harmed every day based on the Arab religion. My dog is pretty smart too. You have a freewill choice to make, believe God or believe man.

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Gambler?????

Gambling would assume one has a choice in the matter.

Can you choose to believe there is no wrong in purposely harming a child?

Can you choose to believe dogs or horses are more intelligent than humans?

Sure you can. In the middle east, kids are harmed every day based on the Arab religion. My dog is pretty smart too. You have a freewill choice to make, believe God or believe man.

You are being deliberately obtuse.

I asked if YOU could choose to believe it is okay to harm a child.

I asked if YOU could choose to believe your dog is more intelligent than you.

Ok, but what do either of those have to do with faith in God?

Sure I could PRETEND and PROFESS a belief I do not hold.

But I can no more choose to believe God as portrayed in modern Christianity is real than you can choose to believe Zeus and Thor are real as portrayed in ancient Greek and Roman mythology. Because YOU know they are not.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Sure I could PRETEND and PROFESS a belief I do not hold.

But I can no more choose to believe God as portrayed in modern Christianity is real than you can choose to believe Zeus and Thor are real as portrayed in ancient Greek and Roman mythology. Because YOU know they are not.

Well that is your choice to make. And that goes back to my original post. You get to make a choice - you don’t get to choose the consequences of that choice.

Originally Posted by Squidge

Originally Posted by DBT

'God's Creation' is an assumption. First it needs to be shown that there is a God.

It's a leap of faith.

To many People don’t Understand..

It’s a 747 to the Promise Land ..

Your Riding with the King .

He’s got your Ticket all you got to do is Believe..

Say It..

Your Riding with the King ..

You Heathen Son of a Bail of Sin..

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Sure I could PRETEND and PROFESS a belief I do not hold.

But I can no more choose to believe God as portrayed in modern Christianity is real than you can choose to believe Zeus and Thor are real as portrayed in ancient Greek and Roman mythology. Because YOU know they are not.

Well that is your choice to make. And that goes back to my original post. You get to make a choice - you don’t get to choose the consequences of that choice.

Do you profess that a choice to pretend to hold a belief, which does not exist is a proper choice?

Does your God not know the truth which lies in your heart?

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Big bang is BS. What went bang? Where did the matter come from to begin with? Atheists have faith that there is no God. I have faith there is a God. If they are right, I guess I missed out on some things. If I’m right, they spend eternity in hell. How much of a gambler are you?

Evidence and not making assumptions is the key. There is evidence of an expanding universe. If we don't know something, why assume God did it? That's what the ancients did, how does the wind blow: the spirits of the air. To them, the world was populated with gods and spirits, evil and benevolent.....

The correct answer to what happened before and at the instant of the big bang is we don't know. To assert that you know the truth without any evidence is delusion.

Aetheists simply do not accept that a god did it because there is no proof. It's not the same as saying there is no god. Antitheists believe there is no god.

The gambling notion is contrived by the theists.

Theists killing those of opposing views is a supreme tragedy.

Cathlics in particular appear to have a solid track record for pedophilia. The pope is busy hiding the guilty priests.

Religion is a business, faith is following God's teaching is what Christianity is all about,

Originally Posted by akrange

Originally Posted by Squidge

Originally Posted by DBT

'God's Creation' is an assumption. First it needs to be shown that there is a God.

It's a leap of faith.

To many People don’t Understand..

It’s a 747 to the Promise Land ..

Your Riding with the King .

He’s got your Ticket all you got to do is Believe..

Say It..

Your Riding with the King ..

You Heathen Son of a Bail of Sin..

More to it than believe, old boy.

Originally Posted by DBT

'God's Creation' is an assumption. First it needs to be shown that there is a God.

The best way to prove there is a god, is through “his” creation. Science is possibly the best way to prove that it would be impossible to happen naturally without some sort of outside interference. I would have to believe that even the brightest of human minds aren’t even close to the capability that would be needed to process and understand these things. It’s like a caveman trying to comprehend and come to a determination of how a super computer works.
This is why faith is our only option to believe at this point in human evolution. Either you have it or don’t. If you’re hung up on the arrogance that if “you” can’t understand or have it explained to you on a scientific l level that it can’t be true, then you won’t be able to have “faith”. If you can sit on the top of a mountain or the edge of the ocean and watch the sun set or rise and understand there’s something more at work, then you will be able to.

In the end, every knee shall bow, prepare yourselves , or not. What has been bought and paid for by the One, for all ,is a hard thing to grasp for minds so easily influenced by the drivel that is launched , daily. I do not like seeing the tangent so many of my young nieces, nephews and their friends are on!

Originally Posted by bluefish

Originally Posted by akrange

Originally Posted by Squidge

Originally Posted by DBT

'God's Creation' is an assumption. First it needs to be shown that there is a God.

It's a leap of faith.

To many People don’t Understand..

It’s a 747 to the Promise Land ..

Your Riding with the King .

He’s got your Ticket all you got to do is Believe..

Say It..

Your Riding with the King ..

You Heathen Son of a Bail of Sin..

More to it than believe, old boy.

Don’t over think the 7 Day Thing..

Cuz that’s not the Point of His Of Mission of Mercy for those who Believe..

You Ride’n or Not ..

I will find the article I read about how the Hubble telescope found that certain parts of the universe are actually contracting while others are expanding. This disproves the Big Bang theory. I will post it when I find it. The way it was contracting goes completely against the Big bang theory, which is a THEORY, just as evolution is a THEORY. Neither have been completely proven to be fact but are taught that way because many people do not want to acknowledge God.

Also, if the moon was as old as they say it is, during the Apollo program they feared the Lunar module would sink in about 6' of dust. The dust wasn't there. Millions of years of bombarding the moon with meteorites would have created the dust. It didn't happen. Seems as if the moon is younger than they say.

People also forget the thousands of animals fossilized like they drowned, which they did during the flood of Noah's day.

When Mt. St. Hellens erupted, Spirit lake was filled with trees that were pushed into the lake. Within a few months the trees were turning into coal. Much faster than scientists figured.

I have lots of examples that disprove evolution, or other things that are taught as fact. Noone wants to listen to any opposing view. Just like the covid shots.

If the younger dryas event happened about 12k years ago it rightly explains the massive rapid erosion seen in the American west. The evidence destroys the accepted paradigm of present evolutionary hypothesis and the events noted in the OT fit nicely within the narrative.

The interesting thing is that non Christian secularists are the people questioning atheist secularists and are using a word such as antediluvian. They, rather than Christian scientists, are pushing this narrative. It isn’t an issue of their being pro Christian but these guys are actually practicing science and continue to question it all.

Some on here appreciate Ken Hamm. As a Christian I personally think that he represents a mentality that has damaged the message of the Gospel and Christian faith. His Christian message is not the Gospel of Christ. Rather, he had adopted an approach to faith that attacks secular science and builds an argument for Christianity based in the creation story.

The problem with such an approach that Christ is only a central figure in creation while creation and the creation becomes the focus of his message. In Corinthians Paul goes into depth teaching us that if Christ isn’t raised from the dead all that we do pertaining to our faith is useless and in vain.

He reminded those believers that he had made it his purpose to know/teach nothing other than Christ and Christ crucified when he spent time with them. Unfortunately, that message isn’t taught in modern Christian churches. In my mind this is another if not the primary issue which would lead to correcting all of the other problems in the church were it preached.

Originally Posted by antlers

What do you fellas here think are the causes for the ongoing decline of Christianity in particular in this country…?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/christia...come-minority-religion-decades-study.amp

The Bible explains why in great detail.

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

True Christians have ALWAYS been a minority!

This is very true.

Originally Posted by IZH27

In Corinthians Paul goes into depth teaching us that if Christ isn’t raised from the dead all that we do pertaining to our faith is useless and in vain.

yep

Originally Posted by IZH27

He reminded those believers that he had made it his purpose to know/teach nothing other than Christ and Christ crucified when he spent time with them. Unfortunately, that message isn’t taught in modern Christian churches. In my mind this is another if not the primary issue which would lead to correcting all of the other problems in the church were it preached.

yep

To me, the approach should be that the faith is tethered to the event…like it was for the earliest Christians…that launched the movement (Jesus’ ekklesia) that brought us the Bible. To me, an approach that argues from and anchors to the event of the resurrection rather than to the authority of the Bible makes much more sense, and is much more effective; it’s what the earliest Christians did.

I think driving that fact home is important to not only reaching the next generation of Jesus’ followers, but re-reaching the current generation of Jesus’ followers as well.

Christianity is already the minority religion in the US in the world. 99.9% of what gets passed off as "Christian" ain't.

Originally Posted by 10Glocks

Christianity is already the minority religion in the US in the world. 99.9% of what gets passed off as "Christian" ain't.

I haven't read but a few posts on this thread but I scrolled all the way down to basically say what you just said. And what you said has been true for close to 2 thousand years.

Christianity became a minority religion decades ago.

It lost out to the religion of self.

That is why the US is in the state it's in.

Originally Posted by BuzzH

Tough to figure out why people find organized religion hypocritical...

Why wouldn't they want to join? Real mystery.

I find green cults, disguised as hunting organizations, like BHA, but all of their leaders want to ban traditional forms of hunting and trapping and ban guns like Buzz hettick , Ryan Busse, land Tawney and rip off off their members no different than scum like jimmy Swagert or Tammy Faye Baker

Originally Posted by Snowwolfe

None of mine have over decades.

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Big bang is BS. What went bang? Where did the matter come from to begin with? Atheists have faith that there is no God. I have faith there is a God. If they are right, I guess I missed out on some things. If I’m right, they spend eternity in hell. How much of a gambler are you?

Evidence and not making assumptions is the key. There is evidence of an expanding universe. If we don't know something, why assume God did it?

What would you call the Uncaused Cause?

Originally Posted by Dixie_Dude

I will find the article I read about how the Hubble telescope found that certain parts of the universe are actually contracting while others are expanding. This disproves the Big Bang theory. I will post it when I find it. The way it was contracting goes completely against the Big bang theory, which is a THEORY, just as evolution is a THEORY. Neither have been completely proven to be fact but are taught that way because many people do not want to acknowledge God.

Also, if the moon was as old as they say it is, during the Apollo program they feared the Lunar module would sink in about 6' of dust. The dust wasn't there. Millions of years of bombarding the moon with meteorites would have created the dust. It didn't happen. Seems as if the moon is younger than they say.

People also forget the thousands of animals fossilized like they drowned, which they did during the flood of Noah's day.

When Mt. St. Hellens erupted, Spirit lake was filled with trees that were pushed into the lake. Within a few months the trees were turning into coal. Much faster than scientists figured.

I have lots of examples that disprove evolution, or other things that are taught as fact. Noone wants to listen to any opposing view. Just like the covid shots.

You flat earthers are a hoot!

Dismissing scientific theories (look up the actual meaning in this context) always comes at the cost of credability. Your time would be better served trying to prove your god. Looks like you can't do this either.

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Big bang is BS. What went bang? Where did the matter come from to begin with? Atheists have faith that there is no God. I have faith there is a God. If they are right, I guess I missed out on some things. If I’m right, they spend eternity in hell. How much of a gambler are you?

Evidence and not making assumptions is the key. There is evidence of an expanding universe. If we don't know something, why assume God did it?

What would you call the Uncaused Cause?

Has someone besides theists made a claim for uncaused cause?

Theists assume God - whatever that is supposed to be - to be the uncaused cause.

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by Snowwolfe

None of mine have over decades.

Mine either. My pastors have all been working class financially and mostly in lifestyle. Working long hours doing church maintenance themselves, visiting sick church members, weddings, funerals, overseeing bills, volunteer staffing ect, along with counseling couples with relationship troubles, emotional problems, financial troubles and other issues that I wouldn’t have the patience to deal with. About half of them did those things while also working a regular job on the side to keep things afloat.

Small town and country churches with small congregations and very conservative and outspoken in their beliefs.

If Christianity were the problem society should be getting better but instead we see the opposite. As Christianity goes our cultures have been in decline.

Originally Posted by antlers

Originally Posted by IZH27

In Corinthians Paul goes into depth teaching us that if Christ isn’t raised from the dead all that we do pertaining to our faith is useless and in vain.

yep

Originally Posted by IZH27

He reminded those believers that he had made it his purpose to know/teach nothing other than Christ and Christ crucified when he spent time with them. Unfortunately, that message isn’t taught in modern Christian churches. In my mind this is another if not the primary issue which would lead to correcting all of the other problems in the church were it preached.

yep

To me, the approach should be that the faith is tethered to the event…like it was for the earliest Christians…that launched the movement (Jesus’ ekklesia) that brought us the Bible. To me, an approach that argues from and anchors to the event of the resurrection rather than to the authority of the Bible makes much more sense, and is much more effective; it’s what the earliest Christians did.

I think driving that fact home is important to not only reaching the next generation of Jesus’ followers, but re-reaching the current generation of Jesus’ followers as well.

In general I agree with the sentiment of your stance. I think that we vary on the importance and place of scripture a bit and the church but definitely find unity at the centrality of the resurrection.

I was listening to a couple “Lutrans” discussing the ideas of transcendence and condescendence . I’ve heard this subject covered in sermons before, but always in the context of God’s transcendence and condescendence.

There’s really only two religions in the world, Christianity and religions of works or law. Works or law based religions are transcendent perverting that concept as man try to rise up to God through something that he does. Perversions are seen in Christianity where ascendancy of the spirit is emphasized. Pietism and Gnosticism come to mind.

From beginning to end, scripture gives countless examples of God coming to man and doing for man what is needed without the help of man. God does this though presence and means in the person of Christ.

A real God-man on a specific day on a particular hill shed particular Jewish blood for specific sin and was buried in a particular tomb and rose with witnesses.

Christ and Christ crucified is what Paul told the Corinthians had been his purpose when he was with them. He taught a specific truth without which everything that they did in faith was useless.

Today people “witness about or “share” the Gospel” by telling people anecdotal stories about what’s happened in their life to make it better. That claim of a subjective experience of personal transcendence is never seen. These claims that are made are not seen in evidence and make no difference in what is see in the life of the person claiming change when compared to a good moral person who makes no such transcendent claim.

That perverted view is contrasted to condescendence where Christ comes to man in presence and means as a historical figure that did specific things for a specific purpose to achieve a specific outcome.

I don’t mean to sound preachy or teachy. Im just trying to capture the general idea that I’m getting from the conversation I referenced. I’d never applied those concepts to man but it just makes sense when I look around. I guess that I said all of that to set up the comment that getting back to Christ Crucified and away from all of the spiritualism and mysticism and self awareness would probably go a long way in making the Christian religion meaningful and important to our young people.

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Big bang is BS. What went bang? Where did the matter come from to begin with? Atheists have faith that there is no God. I have faith there is a God. If they are right, I guess I missed out on some things. If I’m right, they spend eternity in hell. How much of a gambler are you?

Evidence and not making assumptions is the key. There is evidence of an expanding universe. If we don't know something, why assume God did it?

What would you call the Uncaused Cause?

Has someone besides theists made a claim for uncaused cause?

Theists assume God - whatever that is supposed to be - to be the uncaused cause.

When God is shown to be the ultimate explanation of the universe and a person asks, “What caused God?”, that is on par with showing that a locomotive is the explanation for the motion of boxcars and someone asking, “Yes, but what’s pulling the locomotive?”

Just as a boxcar’s motion can be explained only by something that is not itself a boxcar, the universe’s existence (including its beginning and motion within it) can be explained only by something that it not itself the universe. If an atheist sees that infinite regression is a bad explanation, then he needs a final cause to make the causal chain finite in length, a cause that by its very nature makes no sense to ask what caused it.

The question now isn’t, “What caused God?” but “What is this cause?” and “Is it God?”

Originally Posted by IZH27

In general I agree with the sentiment of your stance. I think that we vary on the importance and place of scripture a bit and the church but definitely find unity at the centrality of the resurrection.

Our differences of opinion are OK. And I appreciated your last post.

Most people who walked away from Christianity did so for reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. They walked away from a version of Christianity that could be compared to a house of cards…if someone convinced them (for example) that if the earth wasn’t really created in 6 literal days, then why should they believe anything else in the Bible…that if any part of any of the 66 books of the Bible is proven to be untrue, then the Bible isn’t true, and if the Bible isn’t true, then their version of Christianity comes crashin’ down (like a house of cards).

Who taught them that believing non-essential things, like the literal 6 day creation account in Genesis (for example) was essential to following Jesus…? A person can certainly follow Jesus without believing whatever it is that they’ve decided they no longer believe (non-essential beliefs). And what these folks disbelieve usually intersects with something in the Old Testament.

These people need to know that Christianity can stand on its own two New Covenant, nail-scarred, resurrection, first-century feet. Christianity does not need to be propped up by the Hebrew Scriptures.

When Peter saw Jesus crucified, and he knew He died, and he knew where He was entombed…and then a few days later he shared a meal with Jesus on the beach…Peter’s faith didn’t need any ancient props. Current events sufficed.

Most non-Christians and post-Christians nowadays have a favorable view of Jesus, and while many may not see Him as divine, they still see Him as someone whose life is worth striving to imitate. The point is ~ people don’t leave the church or the faith because of Jesus. He’s not the stumbling block.

Other things have been put in their way, things that have made the church and the faith unnecessarily unattractive and resistible to people who left because of it.

Jesus’ Apostle’s appropriately leveraged the Old Testament to make their case to their fellow Jews in the first-century.
But when preaching to Gentiles, even in the first-century, they leveraged a more recent development ~ the resurrection.

Peter, Andrew, James, John, and Jesus’ other earliest followers didn’t choose to follow Him because of something they read; they chose to follow Him because of something they saw

The Bible, especially the New Testament, plays an important role in helping us understand what it means to follow Jesus, but it is not ‘the’ reason I follow Him. I don’t believe because of a book, I believe because of an event that inspired the book. The Bible didn’t create Christianity; Christianity created the Bible.

Christianity existed for well over 200 years before there ever was ‘the Bible’. But Christianity did not exist before there was the resurrection.

Again, I think these truths are important in reaching the next generation, and in re-reaching the current generation as well.

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Big bang is BS. What went bang? Where did the matter come from to begin with? Atheists have faith that there is no God. I have faith there is a God. If they are right, I guess I missed out on some things. If I’m right, they spend eternity in hell. How much of a gambler are you?

Evidence and not making assumptions is the key. There is evidence of an expanding universe. If we don't know something, why assume God did it?

What would you call the Uncaused Cause?

Has someone besides theists made a claim for uncaused cause?

Theists assume God - whatever that is supposed to be - to be the uncaused cause.

When God is shown to be the ultimate explanation of the universe and a person asks, “What caused God?”, that is on par with showing that a locomotive is the explanation for the motion of boxcars and someone asking, “Yes, but what’s pulling the locomotive?”

Just as a boxcar’s motion can be explained only by something that is not itself a boxcar, the universe’s existence (including its beginning and motion within it) can be explained only by something that it not itself the universe. If an atheist sees that infinite regression is a bad explanation, then he needs a final cause to make the causal chain finite in length, a cause that by its very nature makes no sense to ask what caused it.

The question now isn’t, “What caused God?” but “What is this cause?” and “Is it God?”

A god being the cause is an unsubstantiated assertion. You kinda wasted your time on your explanation.

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Big bang is BS. What went bang? Where did the matter come from to begin with? Atheists have faith that there is no God. I have faith there is a God. If they are right, I guess I missed out on some things. If I’m right, they spend eternity in hell. How much of a gambler are you?

Evidence and not making assumptions is the key. There is evidence of an expanding universe. If we don't know something, why assume God did it?

What would you call the Uncaused Cause?

Has someone besides theists made a claim for uncaused cause?

Theists assume God - whatever that is supposed to be - to be the uncaused cause.

When God is shown to be the ultimate explanation of the universe and a person asks, “What caused God?”, that is on par with showing that a locomotive is the explanation for the motion of boxcars and someone asking, “Yes, but what’s pulling the locomotive?”

Just as a boxcar’s motion can be explained only by something that is not itself a boxcar, the universe’s existence (including its beginning and motion within it) can be explained only by something that it not itself the universe. If an atheist sees that infinite regression is a bad explanation, then he needs a final cause to make the causal chain finite in length, a cause that by its very nature makes no sense to ask what caused it.

The question now isn’t, “What caused God?” but “What is this cause?” and “Is it God?”

A god being the cause is an unsubstantiated assertion. You kinda wasted your time on your explanation.

You don’t believe in God. How’s that working out for your country?

Do you have a Constitutionally enshrined God given right to guns, freedom of speech or liberty without a mask? Unfortunately the US is probably eventually headed down the same road but our faith in God and freedoms are still several decades ahead of yours. IMO.

Without God might is right and nobody has a birthright to freedom of speech or weapons. Look no further than Australia. Which is exactly the reason every communist country throughout history has looked to push atheism and ban Christianity.

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Big bang is BS. What went bang? Where did the matter come from to begin with? Atheists have faith that there is no God. I have faith there is a God. If they are right, I guess I missed out on some things. If I’m right, they spend eternity in hell. How much of a gambler are you?

Evidence and not making assumptions is the key. There is evidence of an expanding universe. If we don't know something, why assume God did it?

What would you call the Uncaused Cause?

Has someone besides theists made a claim for uncaused cause?

Theists assume God - whatever that is supposed to be - to be the uncaused cause.

When God is shown to be the ultimate explanation of the universe and a person asks, “What caused God?”, that is on par with showing that a locomotive is the explanation for the motion of boxcars and someone asking, “Yes, but what’s pulling the locomotive?”

Just as a boxcar’s motion can be explained only by something that is not itself a boxcar, the universe’s existence (including its beginning and motion within it) can be explained only by something that it not itself the universe. If an atheist sees that infinite regression is a bad explanation, then he needs a final cause to make the causal chain finite in length, a cause that by its very nature makes no sense to ask what caused it.

The question now isn’t, “What caused God?” but “What is this cause?” and “Is it God?”

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

It is being assumed that a God - whatever that is - exists and that God, as it is assumed to be, is eternal.

The whole religious thing is base not on observation of how the universe works, evidence for the existence of a God, but assumption and faith.

Nor should it be assumed that the universe requires the proposition of a God - whatever that is - to explain its existence.

The simple truth is; we don't know enough to form a conclusion.

A belief in God - whatever that is - is a faith based conclusion.

2 Peter 2:6 NKJV

- and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Psalm 14:1

- The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.

Originally Posted by TheLastLemming76

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Big bang is BS. What went bang? Where did the matter come from to begin with? Atheists have faith that there is no God. I have faith there is a God. If they are right, I guess I missed out on some things. If I’m right, they spend eternity in hell. How much of a gambler are you?

Evidence and not making assumptions is the key. There is evidence of an expanding universe. If we don't know something, why assume God did it?

What would you call the Uncaused Cause?

Has someone besides theists made a claim for uncaused cause?

Theists assume God - whatever that is supposed to be - to be the uncaused cause.

When God is shown to be the ultimate explanation of the universe and a person asks, “What caused God?”, that is on par with showing that a locomotive is the explanation for the motion of boxcars and someone asking, “Yes, but what’s pulling the locomotive?”

Just as a boxcar’s motion can be explained only by something that is not itself a boxcar, the universe’s existence (including its beginning and motion within it) can be explained only by something that it not itself the universe. If an atheist sees that infinite regression is a bad explanation, then he needs a final cause to make the causal chain finite in length, a cause that by its very nature makes no sense to ask what caused it.

The question now isn’t, “What caused God?” but “What is this cause?” and “Is it God?”

A god being the cause is an unsubstantiated assertion. You kinda wasted your time on your explanation.

You don’t believe in God. How’s that working out for your country?

Do you have a Constitutionally enshrined God given right to guns, freedom of speech or liberty without a mask? Unfortunately the US is probably eventually headed down the same road but our faith in God and freedoms are still several decades ahead of yours. IMO.

Without God might is right and nobody has a birthright to freedom of speech or weapons. Look no further than Australia. Which is exactly the reason every communist country throughout history has looked to push atheism and ban Christianity.

You unnecessarily convolute religion with politics, irrespective, compared with your country, we are doing great. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Getting more secular by the minute.

Originally Posted by antlers

What do you fellas here think are the causes for the ongoing decline of Christianity in particular in this country…?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/christia...come-minority-religion-decades-study.amp

The New World Order doesn't like competition.

Originally Posted by antlers

Originally Posted by IZH27

In general I agree with the sentiment of your stance. I think that we vary on the importance and place of scripture a bit and the church but definitely find unity at the centrality of the resurrection.

Our differences of opinion are OK. And I appreciated your last post.

Most people who walked away from Christianity did so for reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. They walked away from a version of Christianity that could be compared to a house of cards…if someone convinced them (for example) that if the earth wasn’t really created in 6 literal days, then why should they believe anything else in the Bible…that if any part of any of the 66 books of the Bible is proven to be untrue, then the Bible isn’t true, and if the Bible isn’t true, then their version of Christianity comes crashin’ down (like a house of cards).

Who taught them that believing non-essential things, like the literal 6 day creation account in Genesis (for example) was essential to following Jesus…? A person can certainly follow Jesus without believing whatever it is that they’ve decided they no longer believe (non-essential beliefs). And what these folks disbelieve usually intersects with something in the Old Testament.

These people need to know that Christianity can stand on its own two New Covenant, nail-scarred, resurrection, first-century feet. Christianity does not need to be propped up by the Hebrew Scriptures.

When Peter saw Jesus crucified, and he knew He died, and he knew where He was entombed…and then a few days later he shared a meal with Jesus on the beach…Peter’s faith didn’t need any ancient props. Current events sufficed.

Most non-Christians and post-Christians nowadays have a favorable view of Jesus, and while many may not see Him as divine, they still see Him as someone whose life is worth striving to imitate. The point is ~ people don’t leave the church or the faith because of Jesus. He’s not the stumbling block.

Other things have been put in their way, things that have made the church and the faith unnecessarily unattractive and resistible to people who left because of it.

Jesus’ Apostle’s appropriately leveraged the Old Testament to make their case to their fellow Jews in the first-century.
But when preaching to Gentiles, even in the first-century, they leveraged a more recent development ~ the resurrection.

Peter, Andrew, James, John, and Jesus’ other earliest followers didn’t choose to follow Him because of something they read; they chose to follow Him because of something they saw

The Bible, especially the New Testament, plays an important role in helping us understand what it means to follow Jesus, but it is not ‘the’ reason I follow Him. I don’t believe because of a book, I believe because of an event that inspired the book. The Bible didn’t create Christianity; Christianity created the Bible.

Christianity existed for well over 200 years before there ever was ‘the Bible’. But Christianity did not exist before there was the resurrection.

Again, I think these truths are important in reaching the next generation, and in re-reaching the current generation as well.

In what you are saying do you see Christ and Christ crucified as an experience or a reality?

Originally Posted by DBT

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

Likewise, it has not been proven that God does not exist.

To consider the wonders of this world and night sky and think it was all made by accident would be a huge leap of misplaced faith, far more than that of a Christian who places his faith in God. The godless will do, say and believe anything to deny God. It is in our human nature to hate and deny God. We humans cannot change our nature. If God does not change that within us, we have no hope.

The Mexican that has the landscape supply next to me asked if I thought we would be with our dead parents.

Hell. I though he would know.

Originally Posted by antlers

Originally Posted by IZH27

In general I agree with the sentiment of your stance. I think that we vary on the importance and place of scripture a bit and the church but definitely find unity at the centrality of the resurrection.

Our differences of opinion are OK. And I appreciated your last post.

Most people who walked away from Christianity did so for reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. They walked away from a version of Christianity that could be compared to a house of cards…if someone convinced them (for example) that if the earth wasn’t really created in 6 literal days, then why should they believe anything else in the Bible…that if any part of any of the 66 books of the Bible is proven to be untrue, then the Bible isn’t true, and if the Bible isn’t true, then their version of Christianity comes crashin’ down (like a house of cards).

Who taught them that believing non-essential things, like the literal 6 day creation account in Genesis (for example) was essential to following Jesus…? A person can certainly follow Jesus without believing whatever it is that they’ve decided they no longer believe (non-essential beliefs). And what these folks disbelieve usually intersects with something in the Old Testament.

I will say this... man is corrupted, from Adam and Eve, to Moses and David. The bible is written by men, it is corrupted. It's the account of man reaching to God with all the good and bad. God reached back to man with Christ, who didn't leave one personal written word. Then written words are continued again after the resurrection, man was reaching back to God. No matter how well meaning and sincere any man is in his attempt to 'speak' for God, they will always be interpreting it through the human deficiency.

Man's words are rooted in time, place and space. They are insufficient to describe, define or contain God. True communication with God does not use man words, it's through spirit, emotion. Man's closest word to describe God is not eternal, it's infinity. He exists forward and backward, outward and inward, from infinite points in infinite directions. The mind can't comprehend that, words can't explain it.

Nothing wrong with the bible used as a self search into your relationship with God, you are just another human in the list of humans in the bible doing the same. If someone uses those human words to ostracize or judge another man's relationship with God... well that's corrupted human nature at it's core... for good or bad that's just how it is.

Kent

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Big bang is BS. What went bang? Where did the matter come from to begin with? Atheists have faith that there is no God. I have faith there is a God. If they are right, I guess I missed out on some things. If I’m right, they spend eternity in hell. How much of a gambler are you?

Evidence and not making assumptions is the key. There is evidence of an expanding universe. If we don't know something, why assume God did it?

What would you call the Uncaused Cause?

Has someone besides theists made a claim for uncaused cause?

Theists assume God - whatever that is supposed to be - to be the uncaused cause.

When God is shown to be the ultimate explanation of the universe and a person asks, “What caused God?”, that is on par with showing that a locomotive is the explanation for the motion of boxcars and someone asking, “Yes, but what’s pulling the locomotive?”

Just as a boxcar’s motion can be explained only by something that is not itself a boxcar, the universe’s existence (including its beginning and motion within it) can be explained only by something that it not itself the universe. If an atheist sees that infinite regression is a bad explanation, then he needs a final cause to make the causal chain finite in length, a cause that by its very nature makes no sense to ask what caused it.

The question now isn’t, “What caused God?” but “What is this cause?” and “Is it God?”

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

It is being assumed that a God - whatever that is - exists and that God, as it is assumed to be, is eternal.

The whole religious thing is base not on observation of how the universe works, evidence for the existence of a God, but assumption and faith.

Nor should it be assumed that the universe requires the proposition of a God - whatever that is - to explain its existence.

The simple truth is; we don't know enough to form a conclusion.

A belief in God - whatever that is - is a faith based conclusion.

Again, The question now isn’t, “What caused God?” but “What is this cause?” and “Is it God?” For me , I sort of agree with your last sentence, with a little rearranging...."A belief in God-My faith knows what it is-For me is a faith based conclusion" That is my conclusion...

Originally Posted by krp

I will say this... man is corrupted, from Adam and Eve, to Moses and David. The bible is written by men, it is corrupted. It's the account of man reaching to God with all the good and bad. God reached back to man with Christ, who didn't leave one personal written word. Then written words are continued again after the resurrection, man was reaching back to God. No matter how well meaning and sincere any man is in his attempt to 'speak' for God, they will always be interpreting it through the human deficiency.

To say such a thing is a slap in that face of a sovereign God who is in fact very much control of all things, most of all His word in the form of the Bible. This book is the direct & true word of God for our direction and instruction. If this is not true, then that would put every word into question and would be in it's whole, a lie. God caused man to write it and He has more than enough power to preserve His word in truth for all time.

Quote

The Bible as a living Word of God, came by divine inspiration, as attested to by Apostle Peter as he writes, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:20-12).

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Big bang is BS. What went bang? Where did the matter come from to begin with? Atheists have faith that there is no God. I have faith there is a God. If they are right, I guess I missed out on some things. If I’m right, they spend eternity in hell. How much of a gambler are you?

Evidence and not making assumptions is the key. There is evidence of an expanding universe. If we don't know something, why assume God did it?

What would you call the Uncaused Cause?

Has someone besides theists made a claim for uncaused cause?

Physicists who subscribe to the Big Bang theory.

Quote

Theists assume God - whatever that is supposed to be - to be the uncaused cause.

I'm asking you what you call it.

There's a reason Jesus didn't write anything and he made man aware of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our true minister, our communication with God. We can not move forward spiritually without severing the physical, there is no physical path to God, that's man's mistake thinking there is. It doesn't affect God he's patient and understanding, it affects our relationships with each other while here.

Kent

Originally Posted by SuperCub

The Bible as a living Word of God, came by divine inspiration, as attested to by Apostle Peter as he writes, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:20-12).

But there are works of fiction in the Bible, meant to illustrate lessons. The parables are small examples and it is commonly thought that the Book of Judith is another example. Whether Judith existed or not is irrelevant. This doesn't make the Bible any less true. Indeed, the Bible is 100% the inspired word of God. If anyone thinks something is wrong with it, they are misunderstanding what they are reading.

Originally Posted by IZH27

In what you are saying do you see Christ and Christ crucified as an experience or a reality?

As you mentioned earlier, Apostle Paul declared that Christianity is false unless the resurrection of Jesus is a historical fact. He even names the still living eyewitnesses of the Resurrection at the time, pretty much challenging his readers to fact-check him by asking those still living eyewitnesses of the Resurrection themselves about it.

But he didn’t say, “Believe that Jesus rose from the dead because I’m writing the Bible and the Bible is the authority.” Truths and realities outside of the Bible are what got Christianity started. Before the New Testament was ever even written, many thousands of Jews and Gentiles understood the reality and the truth of the Resurrection, and the reality and the truth of the Christianity that it launched.

Unbelievers in the mid-first century were never asked to become followers of Jesus through blind faith in an authoritative New Testament that didn’t even exist yet, but on the reality and the truth of God and the historical fact of the Resurrection. Contrary to what some skeptics assert, the New Testament writers did not create the Resurrection; the Resurrection created the New Testament writers. So the Resurrection…and the Christianity that it launched…would still be real and true even if every Bible and manuscript in the world were non-existent.

Originally Posted by krp

There's a reason Jesus didn't write anything and he made man aware of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our true minister, our communication with God. We can not move forward spiritually without severing the physical, there is no physical path to God, that's man's mistake thinking there is. It doesn't affect God he's patient and understanding, it affects our relationships with each other while here.

Kent

I’m aware of this view and would say that I travelled a good way down that path. The problem that I found was no matter how hard I tried to transcend or ascend I couldn’t. I could find no objective measure to indicate that my efforts were successful.

I’m curious to know what you have seen or experienced in your life that gives you objectivity regarding spiritual progress (growth?) through severing the physical.

Thanks Antlers.

We certainly agree on the centrality of Christ as the thing that holds it all together and gives it meaning.

How do you view that as playing out in a life, the tip of the spear so to speak? I wasn’t very clear but that was the thought behind my question. When a person sees that truth is it an experience based or just the reality alone that makes it work?

Originally Posted by krp

The Holy Spirit is our true minister, our communication with God.

The commonly accepted doctrine of sola scriptura teaches that the Bible is the the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice. While the HS does help us with understanding the Word of God, He cannot teach anything that contradicts the Word of God. There are some groups out there that claim to hear directly from God on a regular basis, but some of this does not line up with the Bible and thus heretical.

The Bible is the last word for us from God. It cannot be added to or diminished as per Deut. 4:2

With regards to the OP/article, I see this as great news. I would hate to think that our country/culture/society was going down the crapper like it is with Christianity on the rise. There is no doubt in my mind that the deterioration we see in American life is directly correlated to our diminishing faith in God; in addition, many who profess to be Christian have become useful idiots to the Left. All we need is a spiritual revival to get back on the right path. Alas, I fear that the critical mass needed for this may no longer exist, although it is heartening to see so much faith and biblical knowledge here on the Campfire.

I've not read all of the rest of the thread, so I'll just say that it all boils down to what you are going to do with the resurrection. Are you going to write off the eyewitnesses of that event as liars or lunatics and dismiss it? Or are you going to accept their accounts as the truth, and therefore see that God exists? It has to be one or the other, doesn't it? After that, you can quibble over details of theology all you want, or quibble over Big Bangs, geologic time, evolution and so on. But the the resurrection has to be dealt with, one way or the other, some time or another. It was, I believe, the key event in all of history.

Originally Posted by IZH27

We certainly agree on the centrality of Christ as the thing that holds it all together and gives it meaning. How do you view that as playing out in a life, the tip of the spear so to speak? I wasn’t very clear but that was the thought behind my question. When a person sees that truth is it an experience based or just the reality alone that makes it work?

To me, I think once one assuredly realizes the truth and the reality of it, it’s like a breath of fresh air. It’s so compelling, and it’s so defensible. And it changes one’s perspective. One truly realizes that happiness isn’t just dependent on whatever life throws our way; we do have a say in the matter. We can find peace amongst the chaos, and contentment despite limitations, and joy even in our lowest moments.

My hope is anchored to an event ~ the very same event that kindled the dwindling hope of Peter and John and James (the brother of Jesus) and the rest of the first followers of Jesus.

Peter says that his hope, and our hope, is anchored to the resurrection of Jesus. “In His great ‘mercy’ He has given us ‘new birth’ into a ‘living hope’ through the ‘resurrection’ of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil, or fade.”

To me, assuredly knowing the truth and the reality of the original version of Christianity…fully embracing it…changes the way one sees life, lives life, and basically fully experiences life. It makes one’s life better, and it makes one better at life.

Is that All there Is..

It is through the written Word that the living Word is revealed. Jesus is the Word. The Word became flesh and lived among us, John 1:14. The inspiration of scripture was Jesus. We know nothing about Jesus apart from the Word, as Jesus reveals Himself through the written Word. The Word of God is powerful and alive and sharper than any two-edged sword, Hebrews 4:12

Knowledge of scripture is how we know God. The Bible is God’s revelation of Himself and His plan for man. It’s a progressive revelation. The Holy Spirit transmits the truth thru revelation. Apart from Jesus, scriptures are God’s greatest blessing to man, John 1:14

The Word says all scripture was inspired by God, John 6:63, from God 1 Thess 2:13, and God-breathed, 2 Tim 3:16-17.

Those who reject scripture have been blinded by Satan, 2 Corinthians 4:4. It’s a dangerous thing to reject scripture, as it is akin to rejecting Jesus.

Lets hope fuqin religin hits the dump it belongs in.

Originally Posted by Wrapids

Lets hope fuqin religin hits the dump it belongs in.

I'd be asking God to open your eyes and understanding if I were you. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by Wrapids

Lets hope fuqin religin hits the dump it belongs in.

I'd be asking God to open your eyes and understanding if I were you. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Which god? If you choose the wrong god you could have everything to lose, for eternity. It's not a flippant decision is it?

Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go

With regards to the OP/article, I see this as great news. I would hate to think that our country/culture/society was going down the crapper like it is with Christianity on the rise. There is no doubt in my mind that the deterioration we see in American life is directly correlated to our diminishing faith in God; in addition, many who profess to be Christian have become useful idiots to the Left. All we need is a spiritual revival to get back on the right path. Alas, I fear that the critical mass needed for this may no longer exist, although it is heartening to see so much faith and biblical knowledge here on the Campfire.

I've not read all of the rest of the thread, so I'll just say that it all boils down to what you are going to do with the resurrection. Are you going to write off the eyewitnesses of that event as liars or lunatics and dismiss it? Or are you going to accept their accounts as the truth, and therefore see that God exists? It has to be one or the other, doesn't it? After that, you can quibble over details of theology all you want, or quibble over Big Bangs, geologic time, evolution and so on. But the the resurrection has to be dealt with, one way or the other, some time or another. It was, I believe, the key event in all of history.

100% agree....

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by DBT

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

Likewise, it has not been proven that God does not exist.

To consider the wonders of this world and night sky and think it was all made by accident would be a huge leap of misplaced faith, far more than that of a Christian who places his faith in God. The godless will do, say and believe anything to deny God. It is in our human nature to hate and deny God. We humans cannot change our nature. If God does not change that within us, we have no hope.

Without evidence, justification is an issue. Believing anyway, without evidence for social, cultural or personal reasons, becomes a matter of faith.

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by BRISTECD

Big bang is BS. What went bang? Where did the matter come from to begin with? Atheists have faith that there is no God. I have faith there is a God. If they are right, I guess I missed out on some things. If I’m right, they spend eternity in hell. How much of a gambler are you?

Evidence and not making assumptions is the key. There is evidence of an expanding universe. If we don't know something, why assume God did it?

What would you call the Uncaused Cause?

Has someone besides theists made a claim for uncaused cause?

Physicists who subscribe to the Big Bang theory.

Quote

Theists assume God - whatever that is supposed to be - to be the uncaused cause.

I'm asking you what you call it.

Which physicists make a claim to know the origin of the universe or that time had a beginning? Who are they?

Originally Posted by IZH27

Originally Posted by krp

There's a reason Jesus didn't write anything and he made man aware of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our true minister, our communication with God. We can not move forward spiritually without severing the physical, there is no physical path to God, that's man's mistake thinking there is. It doesn't affect God he's patient and understanding, it affects our relationships with each other while here.

Kent

I’m aware of this view and would say that I travelled a good way down that path. The problem that I found was no matter how hard I tried to transcend or ascend I couldn’t. I could find no objective measure to indicate that my efforts were successful.

I’m curious to know what you have seen or experienced in your life that gives you objectivity regarding spiritual progress (growth?) through severing the physical.

You don't transcend or become something different than you are, you already exist as body and spirit... you become aware. I see in others different levels of awareness and there's nothing wrong with that. I see in Christ a full awareness we will never experience in the body, understandably. When our physical body dies and we transcend and ascend to just our spiritual existence, that is severing the physical.

There is nothing physical or worldly we can do to achieve salvation or full spirituality besides death, I also believe there is nothing physical or worldly we can do to be denied salvation. If you wish to hold on to this world so tight your spiritual relationship with God and your fellow man is dampened, your life is less full, more disappointing.

I've known I have another existence inside myself from my first memories, even without a name, some people don't become aware for awhile, other's at death.

I'm not going to write a book on the spirit within, folks can just look inside and find it for themselves.

Kent

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by DBT

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

Likewise, it has not been proven that God does not exist.

To consider the wonders of this world and night sky and think it was all made by accident would be a huge leap of misplaced faith, far more than that of a Christian who places his faith in God. The godless will do, say and believe anything to deny God. It is in our human nature to hate and deny God. We humans cannot change our nature. If God does not change that within us, we have no hope.

Without evidence, justification is an issue. Believing anyway, without evidence for social, cultural or personal reasons, becomes a matter of faith.

No amount of evidence will ever change your view. Every atheist/unbeliever deep down knows God exists. God has manifested Himself to all. You obviously have chosen to reject God. So be it.

Originally Posted by WhiteTail48

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by DBT

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

Likewise, it has not been proven that God does not exist.

To consider the wonders of this world and night sky and think it was all made by accident would be a huge leap of misplaced faith, far more than that of a Christian who places his faith in God. The godless will do, say and believe anything to deny God. It is in our human nature to hate and deny God. We humans cannot change our nature. If God does not change that within us, we have no hope.

Without evidence, justification is an issue. Believing anyway, without evidence for social, cultural or personal reasons, becomes a matter of faith.

No amount of evidence will ever change your view. Every atheist/unbeliever deep down knows God exists. God has manifested Himself to all. You obviously have chosen to reject God. So be it.

Believe whatever you are willing, but please stop yapping about it.

Originally Posted by OldHat

Originally Posted by antlers

What do you fellas here think are the causes for the ongoing decline of Christianity in particular in this country…?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/christia...come-minority-religion-decades-study.amp

The Bible explains why in great detail.

To the OP ignorance is the single biggest reason for empty pews. The Bible does explain it in great detail.

I don't believe Christianity is in decline It's starting to come to America from the mission fields that traveled from her ages ago.

Good luck and shoot straight y'all

Originally Posted by Wrapids

Originally Posted by WhiteTail48

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by DBT

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

Likewise, it has not been proven that God does not exist.

To consider the wonders of this world and night sky and think it was all made by accident would be a huge leap of misplaced faith, far more than that of a Christian who places his faith in God. The godless will do, say and believe anything to deny God. It is in our human nature to hate and deny God. We humans cannot change our nature. If God does not change that within us, we have no hope.

Without evidence, justification is an issue. Believing anyway, without evidence for social, cultural or personal reasons, becomes a matter of faith.

No amount of evidence will ever change your view. Every atheist/unbeliever deep down knows God exists. God has manifested Himself to all. You obviously have chosen to reject God. So be it.

Believe whatever you are willing, but please stop yapping about it.

Who dragged you to this thread or did you come on your own accord? Leave if you don't like the "yapping".

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by DBT

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

Likewise, it has not been proven that God does not exist.

To consider the wonders of this world and night sky and think it was all made by accident would be a huge leap of misplaced faith, far more than that of a Christian who places his faith in God. The godless will do, say and believe anything to deny God. It is in our human nature to hate and deny God. We humans cannot change our nature. If God does not change that within us, we have no hope.

Without evidence, justification is an issue. Believing anyway, without evidence for social, cultural or personal reasons, becomes a matter of faith.

The irony is that you think you have a choice in what you believe. As I previously said, it is our human nature to deny and hate God. You don't have a choice here.

Originally Posted by WhiteTail48

You obviously have chosen to reject God. So be it.

You obviously have chosen to reject the other thousands of gods. You're almost a complete atheist - only one more god to go.

Originally Posted by WhiteTail48

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by DBT

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

Likewise, it has not been proven that God does not exist.

To consider the wonders of this world and night sky and think it was all made by accident would be a huge leap of misplaced faith, far more than that of a Christian who places his faith in God. The godless will do, say and believe anything to deny God. It is in our human nature to hate and deny God. We humans cannot change our nature. If God does not change that within us, we have no hope.

Without evidence, justification is an issue. Believing anyway, without evidence for social, cultural or personal reasons, becomes a matter of faith.

No amount of evidence will ever change your view. Every atheist/unbeliever deep down knows God exists. God has manifested Himself to all. You obviously have chosen to reject God. So be it.

I am arguing for evidence as justification, that evidence is necessary whenever we are sorting fact from fiction, so to say to that 'you would not be convinced by any amount of evidence' is absurd.

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by DBT

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

Likewise, it has not been proven that God does not exist.

To consider the wonders of this world and night sky and think it was all made by accident would be a huge leap of misplaced faith, far more than that of a Christian who places his faith in God. The godless will do, say and believe anything to deny God. It is in our human nature to hate and deny God. We humans cannot change our nature. If God does not change that within us, we have no hope.

Without evidence, justification is an issue. Believing anyway, without evidence for social, cultural or personal reasons, becomes a matter of faith.

The irony is that you think you have a choice in what you believe. As I previously said, it is our human nature to deny and hate God. You don't have a choice here.

I said nothing about choice.

You all know what I believe.

Originally Posted by WhiteTail48

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by DBT

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

Likewise, it has not been proven that God does not exist.

To consider the wonders of this world and night sky and think it was all made by accident would be a huge leap of misplaced faith, far more than that of a Christian who places his faith in God. The godless will do, say and believe anything to deny God. It is in our human nature to hate and deny God. We humans cannot change our nature. If God does not change that within us, we have no hope.

Without evidence, justification is an issue. Believing anyway, without evidence for social, cultural or personal reasons, becomes a matter of faith.

No amount of evidence will ever change your view. Every atheist/unbeliever deep down knows God exists. God has manifested Himself to all. You obviously have chosen to reject God. So be it.

It hasn't been shown the Big Bang is science, based on the number evolutionary scientists who reject it. It hasn't been shown that evolution is science based on the number of Ph.D. scientists who reject it. We all live and work from faith. Some admit it others don't.

Originally Posted by Ringman

Originally Posted by WhiteTail48

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by DBT

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

Likewise, it has not been proven that God does not exist.

To consider the wonders of this world and night sky and think it was all made by accident would be a huge leap of misplaced faith, far more than that of a Christian who places his faith in God. The godless will do, say and believe anything to deny God. It is in our human nature to hate and deny God. We humans cannot change our nature. If God does not change that within us, we have no hope.

Without evidence, justification is an issue. Believing anyway, without evidence for social, cultural or personal reasons, becomes a matter of faith.

No amount of evidence will ever change your view. Every atheist/unbeliever deep down knows God exists. God has manifested Himself to all. You obviously have chosen to reject God. So be it.

It hasn't been shown the Big Bang is science, based on the number evolutionary scientists who reject it. It hasn't been shown that evolution is science based on the number of Ph.D. scientists who reject it. We all live and work from faith. Some admit it others don't.

Some use ignorance and lies to try and justify or validate their faith.

Originally Posted by Ringman

Originally Posted by WhiteTail48

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by DBT

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

Likewise, it has not been proven that God does not exist.

To consider the wonders of this world and night sky and think it was all made by accident would be a huge leap of misplaced faith, far more than that of a Christian who places his faith in God. The godless will do, say and believe anything to deny God. It is in our human nature to hate and deny God. We humans cannot change our nature. If God does not change that within us, we have no hope.

Without evidence, justification is an issue. Believing anyway, without evidence for social, cultural or personal reasons, becomes a matter of faith.

No amount of evidence will ever change your view. Every atheist/unbeliever deep down knows God exists. God has manifested Himself to all. You obviously have chosen to reject God. So be it.

It hasn't been shown the Big Bang is science, based on the number evolutionary scientists who reject it. It hasn't been shown that evolution is science based on the number of Ph.D. scientists who reject it. We all live and work from faith. Some admit it others don't.

Of course it's based on evidence and science. You can check the evidence for yourself, examine the work. You may question the evidence and if you are able to falsify the theory, you'll become world famous and your name will go down in history.

Well I'm not going to be here in 2045 so I won't have to see it...

but I feel poorly for the future of our nation and our way of life..

Originally Posted by Ringman

Originally Posted by WhiteTail48

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by DBT

It hasn't been shown that a God exists.

Likewise, it has not been proven that God does not exist.

To consider the wonders of this world and night sky and think it was all made by accident would be a huge leap of misplaced faith, far more than that of a Christian who places his faith in God. The godless will do, say and believe anything to deny God. It is in our human nature to hate and deny God. We humans cannot change our nature. If God does not change that within us, we have no hope.

Without evidence, justification is an issue. Believing anyway, without evidence for social, cultural or personal reasons, becomes a matter of faith.

No amount of evidence will ever change your view. Every atheist/unbeliever deep down knows God exists. God has manifested Himself to all. You obviously have chosen to reject God. So be it.

It hasn't been shown the Big Bang is science, based on the number evolutionary scientists who reject it. It hasn't been shown that evolution is science based on the number of Ph.D. scientists who reject it. We all live and work from faith. Some admit it others don't.

Originally Posted by elkmtb

the big bang theory is equivalent to detonating a nuclear bomb in a junk yard and getting a new fully stocked Lexus dealership out of it.

Quote

''the big bang theory is equivalent to detonating a nuclear bomb in a junk yard and getting a new fully stocked Lexus dealership out of it.''

Nothing of the sort. It's not an analogy. Basic science, logic and reason, physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc, will tell you why.

Originally Posted by DBT

Quote

''the big bang theory is equivalent to detonating a nuclear bomb in a junk yard and getting a new fully stocked Lexus dealership out of it.''

Nothing of the sort. It's not an analogy. Basic science, logic and reason, physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc, will tell you why.

Where did all that basic science, logic and reason, physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc come from? Why is it the way it is?

Here's the facts gents..

https://creationtruth.org/about/

Originally Posted by Greenhorn

Here's the facts gents..

https://creationtruth.org/about/

Amen. Only a complete FOOL believes otherwise.

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Quote

''the big bang theory is equivalent to detonating a nuclear bomb in a junk yard and getting a new fully stocked Lexus dealership out of it.''

Nothing of the sort. It's not an analogy. Basic science, logic and reason, physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc, will tell you why.

Where did all that basic science, logic and reason, physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc come from? Why is it the way it is?

Because, it is the only way it can be.

Laws of Physics make some things possible. Other things not. If the proper parameters had not been met, we would not be here to ask about it..

I think it's the only way you can imagine it. There's no definitive proof that a different physical order is impossible.

Originally Posted by Ringman

It hasn't been shown the Big Bang is science, based on the number evolutionary scientists who reject it. It hasn't been shown that evolution is science based on the number of Ph.D. scientists who reject it. We all live and work from faith. Some admit it others don't.

Rich, tell us more of these Ph.D scientists whom have rejected evolution.

Do they reject that the many species of Darwin's Galapagos finches had a common ancestor? Or a line of transition as they migrated from island to island?

Do they deny the evolution of wolves into poddles, labrador retrievers, and great danes?

Do they deny the many and varied species of cichlid fishes across several continents have a common ancestor?

How do they explain the proliferation of species upon the Earth over the last 66 million years since the great Cretaceous Extinction Event left almost 80% of Earth species intantaneously extinct?

How do they explain the plethora of marsupials in Australia, and the absence of any mammals?

>>>>From DBT
I am arguing for evidence as justification, that evidence is necessary whenever we are sorting fact from fiction, so to say to that 'you would not be convinced by any amount of evidence' is absurd.<<<<

Do you really mean you need evidence as a justification or proof?

Evidence comes in varying degrees of quality. An eyewitness who can testify to someone’s general height, weight, and body frame can deliver evidence, but not like an eyewitness who can testify that the person involved is definitely his brother-in-law. The latter may serve as proof, where the former couldn’t. Either way it’s still evidence.

The Bible itself is evidence of Christianity and the existence of God: Is Christianity more likely to be true, given the existence of the Bible? Of course! Obviously the existence of the Bible, on its own and without close inspection of its contents, doesn’t come anywhere near providing proof. It’s still evidence, on any normal understanding of the term and I chose to believe the evidence in the Christian Bible.

Did it really take 6 days, or did we evolve from monkey fish frogs?

All those FOOLS that believe monkey fish frogs - may you be eternally damned to a fiery hole in the earth and be whipped by Satan himself forever.

Originally Posted by Raspy

>>>>From DBT
I am arguing for evidence as justification, that evidence is necessary whenever we are sorting fact from fiction, so to say to that 'you would not be convinced by any amount of evidence' is absurd.<<<<

Do you really mean you need evidence as a justification or proof?

Evidence comes in varying degrees of quality. An eyewitness who can testify to someone’s general height, weight, and body frame can deliver evidence, but not like an eyewitness who can testify that the person involved is definitely his brother-in-law. The latter may serve as proof, where the former couldn’t. Either way it’s still evidence.

The Bible itself is evidence of Christianity and the existence of God: Is Christianity more likely to be true, given the existence of the Bible? Of course! Obviously the existence of the Bible, on its own and without close inspection of its contents, doesn’t come anywhere near providing proof. It’s still evidence, on any normal understanding of the term and I chose to believe the evidence in the Christian Bible.

Harry Potter and Spiderman are real - just look at all the "evidence".

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Quote

''the big bang theory is equivalent to detonating a nuclear bomb in a junk yard and getting a new fully stocked Lexus dealership out of it.''

Nothing of the sort. It's not an analogy. Basic science, logic and reason, physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc, will tell you why.

Where did all that basic science, logic and reason, physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc come from? Why is it the way it is?

Because, it is the only way it can be.

Laws of Physics make some things possible. Other things not. If the proper parameters had not been met, we would not be here to ask about it..

The laws of physics as we know them could very well be as primitive as stone tools, and the Bible was man conceived.

The very scope of understanding here is about one atom above nil.

How is this universe the only universe? Why does it need to be infinite?

Simple, there are no doubt infinite universes that we could detect and the same with universes we can't. It's possible, or maybe probable, that our universe was created by a blip within another universe or series of universes reacting coincidentally, in tandem, or connectedly.

Time is also beyond our comprehension in the same way as tangible universes.

It's presumptuous of us puny humans to explain all that exists with a 2,000 year old book or physics as we understand it.

There is no doubt that there is still much to be learned about the universe, the physical world, and even Physics itself, as well as Biology and Biochemistry.

Still subsequent discoveries do not typically negate what went before. Quantum Physics does not negate Newtonian Physics. One supplements the other.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Quote

''the big bang theory is equivalent to detonating a nuclear bomb in a junk yard and getting a new fully stocked Lexus dealership out of it.''

Nothing of the sort. It's not an analogy. Basic science, logic and reason, physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc, will tell you why.

Where did all that basic science, logic and reason, physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc come from? Why is it the way it is?

Because, it is the only way it can be.

Laws of Physics make some things possible. Other things not. If the proper parameters had not been met, we would not be here to ask about it..

The laws are descriptive, not prescriptive - they describe how things are but don't dictate how things are meant to be.

Originally Posted by JGRaider

Originally Posted by Greenhorn

Here's the facts gents..

https://creationtruth.org/about/

Amen. Only a complete FOOL believes otherwise.

That's ironic.

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by DBT

Quote

''the big bang theory is equivalent to detonating a nuclear bomb in a junk yard and getting a new fully stocked Lexus dealership out of it.''

Nothing of the sort. It's not an analogy. Basic science, logic and reason, physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc, will tell you why.

Where did all that basic science, logic and reason, physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc come from? Why is it the way it is?

'Why' is the question. We don't know, therefore God is not the answer, it's an assumption. We don"t know is the answer.

Where did the Universe come from?

God made it!

Where did God come from?

Man invented God, again and again, in about a million different forms, over many millennia.

So, again, where did the Universe come from?

Who knows?

Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing.

Originally Posted by DBT

Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing.

You just described yourself, this mauser clown, and all the other atheists to a "T". Congrats.

Originally Posted by Raspy

>>>>From DBT
I am arguing for evidence as justification, that evidence is necessary whenever we are sorting fact from fiction, so to say to that 'you would not be convinced by any amount of evidence' is absurd.<<<<

Do you really mean you need evidence as a justification or proof?

Evidence comes in varying degrees of quality. An eyewitness who can testify to someone’s general height, weight, and body frame can deliver evidence, but not like an eyewitness who can testify that the person involved is definitely his brother-in-law. The latter may serve as proof, where the former couldn’t. Either way it’s still evidence.

The Bible itself is evidence of Christianity and the existence of God: Is Christianity more likely to be true, given the existence of the Bible? Of course! Obviously the existence of the Bible, on its own and without close inspection of its contents, doesn’t come anywhere near providing proof. It’s still evidence, on any normal understanding of the term and I chose to believe the evidence in the Christian Bible.

The bible is evidence of Christianity....the new testament being its foundation.

Which does not mean that what is written in the new testament (or OT) is evidence for the truth of their supernatural stories: circular reasoning, begging the question, etc.....

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Where did the Universe come from?

God made it!

Where did God come from?

Man invented God, again and again, in about a million different forms, over many millennia.

So, again, where did the Universe come from?

Who knows?

Allow me to answer one of your questions.

Asking from where God came is like asking to whom is the bachelor married? It's a nonsecquitor. It conveys nonsense.

God is Infinite. Therefore cannot be invented.

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Raspy

>>>>From DBT
I am arguing for evidence as justification, that evidence is necessary whenever we are sorting fact from fiction, so to say to that 'you would not be convinced by any amount of evidence' is absurd.<<<<

Do you really mean you need evidence as a justification or proof?

Evidence comes in varying degrees of quality. An eyewitness who can testify to someone’s general height, weight, and body frame can deliver evidence, but not like an eyewitness who can testify that the person involved is definitely his brother-in-law. The latter may serve as proof, where the former couldn’t. Either way it’s still evidence.

The Bible itself is evidence of Christianity and the existence of God: Is Christianity more likely to be true, given the existence of the Bible? Of course! Obviously the existence of the Bible, on its own and without close inspection of its contents, doesn’t come anywhere near providing proof. It’s still evidence, on any normal understanding of the term and I chose to believe the evidence in the Christian Bible.

The bible is evidence of Christianity....the new testament being its foundation.

Which does not mean that what is written in the new testament (or OT) is evidence for the truth of their supernatural stories: circular reasoning, begging the question, etc.....

For me and most on the Fire, it is evidence for the truth, but not PROOF...I mean we can keep going and going like the energizer bunny...you say NOT SO and I/we say YES IT IS....

Originally Posted by JGRaider

Originally Posted by DBT

Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing.

You just described yourself, this mauser clown, and all the other atheists to a "T". Congrats.

Ha! like it!

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by JGRaider

Originally Posted by DBT

Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing.

You just described yourself, this mauser clown, and all the other atheists to a "T". Congrats.

Ha! like it!

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by JGRaider

Originally Posted by DBT

Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing.

You just described yourself, this mauser clown, and all the other atheists to a "T". Congrats.

The theists are the ones claiming to know, without a shred of demonstrable evidence, and at times using documentation that contains proven false accounts.

Originally Posted by Ringman

God is Infinite.

Prove it - that he/she/it exists, and then that he/she/it is infinite.

Originally Posted by Ringman

God is Infinite. Therefore cannot be invented.

I could easily invent a god to the same level of proof as yours, and that is a fuck-ton better than any other god out there.

Originally Posted by Dixie_Dude

I will find the article I read about how the Hubble telescope found that certain parts of the universe are actually contracting while others are expanding. This disproves the Big Bang theory. I will post it when I find it. The way it was contracting goes completely against the Big bang theory, which is a THEORY, just as evolution is a THEORY.

Found that article yet?

Looked up the definition of scientific THEORY yet? I'll give you some hints:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/scientific-theory

https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/darwin/evolution-today/what-is-a-theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

Originally Posted by DBT

Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing.

You are correct......

Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.
Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence.
Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness.

So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible...

Haven’t read this thread, but by my count, the Dems are importing a couple million Catholic illegal aliens a year.

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing.

You are correct......

Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.
Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence.
Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness.

So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible...

Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true.

What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction.

What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge.

Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it.

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm

Originally Posted by Ringman

God is Infinite.

Prove it - that he/she/it exists, and then that he/she/it is infinite.

Prove otherwise ....... You cannot.

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm

Originally Posted by Ringman

God is Infinite. Therefore cannot be invented.

I could easily invent a god to the same level of proof as yours, and that is a fuck-ton better than any other god out there.

That implies that yours would be different. If yours was different, then reality would have to change.

How would yours be different?

I've never seen a serious explanation of where the big bang's ball of matter & energy came from. How can anyone believe that it was always there from eternity past but God wasn't there from eternity past?

I haven't read all of this thread but can say that this has been prophesied. Jesus said the end would come like a thief in the night - when no one was expecting it. It would come fast and furious. The REAL church will not only be small but it will be underground, just like in it's earliest days in Rome. There will be a false church that will expand and it's doctrine taught world wide but it will be anti-Christian, led by Satan, to turn people from the truth. It's already started with some churches allowing sexual sin and abortion. Jesus said that the path to heaven will be narrow but the road to destruction will be broad and busy.

Raspy, you and I think a lot alike. Some time back I got into the same back and forth here with an atheist over proof vs. evidence. I contend that neither Christian nor atheist has proof; both have evidence and choose what they want to believe. Another example of this would be the 2020 election. There is plenty of evidence that the election of Biden was fraudulent, but to date there is no proof. For those of us who support Trump, the evidence is so clear to us that we think that it rises to the level of proof; but so far, that evidence has not been presented before the proper authorities for it to be judged. For those opposed to Trump, the evidence is dismissed as either flimsy, unsubstantiated, or, if true, insufficient to have affected the outcome. Neither side will admit that it is wrong. It is somewhat amusing to me that likely some of those who are adamant that Trump was cheated out of a second term are completely dismissive of even the possibility of God's existence.

If God wanted to provide absolute proof of his existence, he would have. I think He wants us to love Him by choice, not simply believe in Him because there is no other choice to be had. After all, "Even the demons believe, and shudder!"

Originally Posted by Rock Chuck

It's already started with some churches allowing sexual sin and abortion.

Should churches cherry-pick which type of sin they’ll allow, given the fact that every single church goer is a sinner, as well as every single pastor and deacon and elder, etc….?
Honest question man. Would Jesus Himself give the cold shoulder to those folks…?

Originally Posted by Tyrone

All over the World, big nanny-state government and prosperity seem to be causes. But I think those are only proximate causes.

Does ‘the Church’…the body of believers, individually and collectively…bear any responsibility at all……?

Originally Posted by Calvin

This is driven largely by the younger generation leaving the church. Not surprised at all.

When they come home from college with real academic questions about the faith of Christianity (for example), and they’re given Sunday School answers, does that have a negative impact…? When they’re told they must believe in the literal 6 day creation in Genesis (for example) in order to believe The Gospel, does that have a negative impact…? When they see Christians selectively ranking sin, and focusing on the moral failures of others while ignoring their own moral failures, and pretending that someone else’s sin is worse than their own sin, does that have a negative impact…?

Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go

Raspy, you and I think a lot alike. Some time back I got into the same back and forth here with an atheist over proof vs. evidence. I contend that neither Christian nor atheist has proof; both have evidence and choose what they want to believe. Another example of this would be the 2020 election. There is plenty of evidence that the election of Biden was fraudulent, but to date there is no proof. For those of us who support Trump, the evidence is so clear to us that we think that it rises to the level of proof; but so far, that evidence has not been presented before the proper authorities for it to be judged. For those opposed to Trump, the evidence is dismissed as either flimsy, unsubstantiated, or, if true, insufficient to have affected the outcome. Neither side will admit that it is wrong. It is somewhat amusing to me that likely some of those who are adamant that Trump was cheated out of a second term are completely dismissive of even the possibility of God's existence.

If God wanted to provide absolute proof of his existence, he would have. I think He wants us to love Him by choice, not simply believe in Him because there is no other choice to be had. After all, "Even the demons believe, and shudder!"

You are correct regarding God's existence...but there was proof of fraud in the 2020 election....our chicken schiet Supreme Court passed the buck, they just did not want to get involved, and said there was no standing...

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm

Originally Posted by Ringman

God is Infinite.

Prove it - that he/she/it exists, and then that he/she/it is infinite.

Prove otherwise ....... You cannot.

Prove God is infinite.

Prove God exist? What a childish statement!

We can confirm to many people’s satisfaction God exists. Even to PhD degree and Master’s degree scientists. The God of the Bible implies Infiniteness. We live in what appears to be an infinite universe; opinions to the contrary notwithstanding. The amount of energy in the universe appears to be almost infinite. The universe appears to be somewhat ordered, but is running down due to entropy. If it is running down logic dictates it had a beginning. In order to start this whole thing one would be a fool to think it came about without a cause. “Science” teaches us, who will learn, everything requires something greater than itself to cause it to be. Infinite requires nothing greater because nothing can be greater than infinite.

Consider the DNA molecule. It can be read forward and backward by RNA. It appears RNA can start almost anywhere along the strand and make sense of it and produce appendages on creatures protruding from opposite side that are the same length but mirror images of each other. DNA produces RNA! Random CAN NOT do this. To think random can do anything ordered is, well, foolish.

But rejecting the God of the Bible is more palatable to ego-centric arrogant humans than admitting they don’t know everything. They reject God for the same reason the ditch digger or garbage man does. They want to be their own person. Period. Therefore they accept worldly fables about nothing producing everything; including consciousness and moral absolutes. Sad. Very sad.

Originally Posted by antlers

Originally Posted by Rock Chuck

It's already started with some churches allowing sexual sin and abortion.

Should churches cherry-pick which type of sin they’ll allow, given the fact that every single church goer is a sinner, as well as every single pastor and deacon and elder, etc….?
Honest question man. Would Jesus Himself give the cold shoulder to those folks…?

Perhaps you are extrapolating your life onto the general church. I, like Apostle Paul, am not aware of sin in my life. Over the years I have repented when someone loved me enough to confront me from God's Word, the Bible. Some of us are not practicing sinners. First John teaches those who practice sin are of the devil. I don't. And based on your posts I don't perceive you are either.

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing.

You are correct......

Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.
Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence.
Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness.

So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible...

Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true.

What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction.

What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge.

Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it.

So what is the argument? We are stating the same.........you originally said...

"Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing." (see above)

I did say you are correct...did I not?

Since you stated your idea of believing vs knowing.... I stated my three ideas about believing vs knowing...and I'll expand to make crystal clear...

1st meaning.... Believing means that you have chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... I cannot prove it...and I have FAITH that it is the TRUTH... ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.....and I am certain.

2nd meaning... Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence....another idea, simple as can be.

3rd meaning... Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness....the last idea....seems simple too.

Please don't try to muddy the waters... Leave out conviction vs choice, as we already discussed that a few months ago....

Originally Posted by Rock Chuck

It's already started with some churches allowing sexual sin and abortion.

Originally Posted by antlers

Should churches cherry-pick which type of sin they’ll allow, given the fact that every single church goer is a sinner, as well as every single pastor and deacon and elder, etc….? Honest question man. Would Jesus Himself give the cold shoulder to those folks…?

Originally Posted by Ringman

Perhaps you are extrapolating your life onto the general church. I, like Apostle Paul, am not aware of sin in my life. Over the years I have repented when someone loved me enough to confront me from God's Word, the Bible. Some of us are not practicing sinners. First John teaches those who practice sin are of the devil. I don't. And based on your posts I don't perceive you are either.

I get from Paul’s writings that…even though he is a follower of Jesus…he is still pretty honest, deeply so, about his ongoing struggle with sin. And I can relate.

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by krp

I will say this... man is corrupted, from Adam and Eve, to Moses and David. The bible is written by men, it is corrupted. It's the account of man reaching to God with all the good and bad. God reached back to man with Christ, who didn't leave one personal written word. Then written words are continued again after the resurrection, man was reaching back to God. No matter how well meaning and sincere any man is in his attempt to 'speak' for God, they will always be interpreting it through the human deficiency.

To say such a thing is a slap in that face of a sovereign God who is in fact very much control of all things, most of all His word in the form of the Bible. This book is the direct & true word of God for our direction and instruction. If this is not true, then that would put every word into question and would be in it's whole, a lie. God caused man to write it and He has more than enough power to preserve His word in truth for all time.

Quote

The Bible as a living Word of God, came by divine inspiration, as attested to by Apostle Peter as he writes, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:20-12).

The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion.

The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be.

Originally Posted by Hastings

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by krp

I will say this... man is corrupted, from Adam and Eve, to Moses and David. The bible is written by men, it is corrupted. It's the account of man reaching to God with all the good and bad. God reached back to man with Christ, who didn't leave one personal written word. Then written words are continued again after the resurrection, man was reaching back to God. No matter how well meaning and sincere any man is in his attempt to 'speak' for God, they will always be interpreting it through the human deficiency.

To say such a thing is a slap in that face of a sovereign God who is in fact very much control of all things, most of all His word in the form of the Bible. This book is the direct & true word of God for our direction and instruction. If this is not true, then that would put every word into question and would be in it's whole, a lie. God caused man to write it and He has more than enough power to preserve His word in truth for all time.

Quote

The Bible as a living Word of God, came by divine inspiration, as attested to by Apostle Peter as he writes, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:20-12).

The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion.

The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be.

Christians don't need to make the God of the Bible "appear bad". God does that all by Himself. Consider the Flood. Puppies and kittens and beautiful young virgins suffered His wrath. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock.

God even claims He killed His Own Son for the atonement of sin. And God is vengeful and will send all who reject His Son to an eternal punishment.

Originally Posted by Ringman

Originally Posted by Hastings

The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion.

The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be.

Christians don't need to make the God of the Bible "appear bad". God does that all by Himself. Consider the Flood. Puppies and kittens and beautiful young virgins suffered His wrath. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock.

God even claims He killed His Own Son for the atonement of sin. And God is vengeful and will send all who reject His Son to an eternal punishment.

I wonder what happens to all those billions of souls scattered all over the earth that never got to read about Jesus, never heard of him, and sure never saw him. They didn't know about God's son and didn't have the opportunity to accept or reject him. That is a problem.

Yeah, I have asked that same question before and never gotten an answer.
The Mormons try to solve that problem through their baptism for the dead. But I don't know how they handle the folks with no written record of their existence.
The Jews didn't take to kindly to the Mormons baptizing their dead ancestors.

Originally Posted by SuperCub

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm

Originally Posted by Ringman

God is Infinite.

Prove it - that he/she/it exists, and then that he/she/it is infinite.

Prove otherwise ....... You cannot.

The onus is on the one making the claim.

How did you disprove all the other gods?

Originally Posted by Tyrone

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm

Originally Posted by Ringman

God is Infinite. Therefore cannot be invented.

I could easily invent a god to the same level of proof as yours, and that is a fuck-ton better than any other god out there.

That implies that yours would be different. If yours was different, then reality would have to change.

How would yours be different?

Mine would match reality.

Originally Posted by antlers

Originally Posted by Rock Chuck

It's already started with some churches allowing sexual sin and abortion.

Should churches cherry-pick which type of sin they’ll allow, given the fact that every single church goer is a sinner, as well as every single pastor and deacon and elder, etc….?
Honest question man. Would Jesus Himself give the cold shoulder to those folks…?

Allowing sin in the church and asking sinners to repent are at opposite ends of the scale. Everyone sins but the believers are expected to repent and ask for forgiveness. If they won't do it and continue in their sin, then it's time for the church to step in. In worst cases, the person should be ejected. That's Biblical.
Now we have churches allowing homosexual marriages and all other kinds of perversion. Christ did love everyone, but those who reject his teaching in that manner are cooked.

Originally Posted by Hastings

Originally Posted by Ringman

Originally Posted by Hastings

The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion.

The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be.

Christians don't need to make the God of the Bible "appear bad". God does that all by Himself. Consider the Flood. Puppies and kittens and beautiful young virgins suffered His wrath. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock.

God even claims He killed His Own Son for the atonement of sin. And God is vengeful and will send all who reject His Son to an eternal punishment.

I wonder what happens to all those billions of souls scattered all over the earth that never got to read about Jesus, never heard of him, and sure never saw him. They didn't know about God's son and didn't have the opportunity to accept or reject him. That is a problem.

That's a problem for you, but not for God. God says He will send His angels in "fire dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus."

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing.

You are correct......

Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.
Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence.
Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness.

So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible...

Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true.

What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction.

What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge.

Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it.

So what is the argument? We are stating the same.........you originally said...

"Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing." (see above)

I did say you are correct...did I not?

Since you stated your idea of believing vs knowing.... I stated my three ideas about believing vs knowing...and I'll expand to make crystal clear...

1st meaning.... Believing means that you have chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... I cannot prove it...and I have FAITH that it is the TRUTH... ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.....and I am certain.

2nd meaning... Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence....another idea, simple as can be.

3rd meaning... Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness....the last idea....seems simple too.

Please don't try to muddy the waters... Leave out conviction vs choice, as we already discussed that a few months ago....

'Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual.

As that is not necessarily the case, you could be wrong, the distinction lies between faith, believing that what you have is true and factual, and what is actually true and factual regardless of what people believe.

And again, we don't choose to be convinced. The process of conviction is more complex than 'choice.'

Originally Posted by Ringman

Originally Posted by Hastings

Originally Posted by Ringman

Originally Posted by Hastings

The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion.

The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be.

Christians don't need to make the God of the Bible "appear bad". God does that all by Himself. Consider the Flood. Puppies and kittens and beautiful young virgins suffered His wrath. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock.

God even claims He killed His Own Son for the atonement of sin. And God is vengeful and will send all who reject His Son to an eternal punishment.

I wonder what happens to all those billions of souls scattered all over the earth that never got to read about Jesus, never heard of him, and sure never saw him. They didn't know about God's son and didn't have the opportunity to accept or reject him. That is a problem.

That's a problem for you, but not for God. God says He will send His angels in "fire dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus."

Well OK, but what about those billions? Is there reincarnation? God cannot be unjust.

Hastings, Your mule reminds me, on a field trip, a child says, that must be a Chrisian mule, he looks so sad.

Originally Posted by wabigoon

Hastings, Your mule reminds me, on a field trip, a child says, that must be a Chrisian mule, he looks so sad.

I like jackasses. They have a lot good traits.

Originally Posted by Hastings

Originally Posted by Ringman

Originally Posted by Hastings

Originally Posted by Ringman

Originally Posted by Hastings

The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion.

The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be.

Christians don't need to make the God of the Bible "appear bad". God does that all by Himself. Consider the Flood. Puppies and kittens and beautiful young virgins suffered His wrath. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock.

God even claims He killed His Own Son for the atonement of sin. And God is vengeful and will send all who reject His Son to an eternal punishment.

I wonder what happens to all those billions of souls scattered all over the earth that never got to read about Jesus, never heard of him, and sure never saw him. They didn't know about God's son and didn't have the opportunity to accept or reject him. That is a problem.

That's a problem for you, but not for God. God says He will send His angels in "fire dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus."

Well OK, but what about those billions? Is there reincarnation? God cannot be unjust.

That verse answers your question.

God's Word tells us the physical comes first, then the spirit. That leaves no room for reincarnation.

God appears to be unjust to me. But God is Infinite and I'm a finite being begging my position. I don't know God. He knows me.

My constant hope is in John 6:68.

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing.

You are correct......

Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.
Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence.
Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness.

So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible...

Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true.

What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction.

What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge.

Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it.

So what is the argument? We are stating the same.........you originally said...

"Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing." (see above)

I did say you are correct...did I not?

Since you stated your idea of believing vs knowing.... I stated my three ideas about believing vs knowing...and I'll expand to make crystal clear...

1st meaning.... Believing means that you have chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... I cannot prove it...and I have FAITH that it is the TRUTH... ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.....and I am certain.

2nd meaning... Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence....another idea, simple as can be.

3rd meaning... Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness....the last idea....seems simple too.

Please don't try to muddy the waters... Leave out conviction vs choice, as we already discussed that a few months ago....

'Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual.

As that is not necessarily the case, you could be wrong, the distinction lies between faith, believing that what you have is true and factual, and what is actually true and factual regardless of what people believe.

And again, we don't choose to be convinced. The process of conviction is more complex than 'choice.'

"Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual".

No, I realize, not factual to you or other atheist.....JUST ME and a lot of Christians.

Rock_Chuck, I appreciated your last post in response to my question.

To me, serving people that they may not see eye to eye with is pretty fundamentally essential to Christianity. Jesus died for a world with which he clearly didn't see eye to eye with.

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing.

You are correct......

Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.
Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence.
Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness.

So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible...

Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true.

What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction.

What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge.

Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it.

So what is the argument? We are stating the same.........you originally said...

"Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing." (see above)

I did say you are correct...did I not?

Since you stated your idea of believing vs knowing.... I stated my three ideas about believing vs knowing...and I'll expand to make crystal clear...

1st meaning.... Believing means that you have chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... I cannot prove it...and I have FAITH that it is the TRUTH... ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.....and I am certain.

2nd meaning... Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence....another idea, simple as can be.

3rd meaning... Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness....the last idea....seems simple too.

Please don't try to muddy the waters... Leave out conviction vs choice, as we already discussed that a few months ago....

'Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual.

As that is not necessarily the case, you could be wrong, the distinction lies between faith, believing that what you have is true and factual, and what is actually true and factual regardless of what people believe.

And again, we don't choose to be convinced. The process of conviction is more complex than 'choice.'

"Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual".

No, I realize, not factual to you or other atheist.....JUST ME and a lot of Christians.

Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.

Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false.

Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah?

Originally Posted by Hastings

Originally Posted by Ringman

Originally Posted by Hastings

Originally Posted by Ringman

Originally Posted by Hastings

The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion.

The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be.

Christians don't need to make the God of the Bible "appear bad". God does that all by Himself. Consider the Flood. Puppies and kittens and beautiful young virgins suffered His wrath. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock.

God even claims He killed His Own Son for the atonement of sin. And God is vengeful and will send all who reject His Son to an eternal punishment.

I wonder what happens to all those billions of souls scattered all over the earth that never got to read about Jesus, never heard of him, and sure never saw him. They didn't know about God's son and didn't have the opportunity to accept or reject him. That is a problem.

That's a problem for you, but not for God. God says He will send His angels in "fire dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus."

Well OK, but what about those billions? Is there reincarnation? God cannot be unjust.

It's a reasonable question - what about them - but the distinct reality is that humans do not know all that God knows. But, to ask makes sense.

Then again, for a human to try to declare what God can or cannot be - makes absolutely no sense.

Originally Posted by DBT

Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.
Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false.
Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah?

I am not exactly addressing your comment but I do believe Allah, El, Jehovah, I am, Yahweh, etc. are names for the same supernatural being. And Islam, Hebrew, and Christianity are closely related. I think it is about time for a lot of us to listen to Spiritual Fantasy by Steppenwolf and get off their high horse of "my way is the only way" but alas I don't know how to get a song onto the discussion. Maybe someone will be able to do it and give a bit of food for thought.

Originally Posted by DBT

Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.
Who would it then be that determines that the "something" is true and factual?

Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false.
If this were to be true, who can make such a choice?

Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah?
Why not? Where would Allah exist - in what realm - determined by whom?

Ringman, I am going to name you in prayer tonight. I will pray for the enlightenment of both of us. You don't get very far past John 3:16 where we are informed " and this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light".

There is only one God and the names don't matter.

Kent

But that is man's/religion's attempt fit God in a box, make him small enough to say we can define...

This is closer...

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Originally Posted by Raspy

Originally Posted by DBT

Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing.

You are correct......

Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.
Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence.
Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness.

So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible...

Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true.

What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction.

What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge.

Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it.

So what is the argument? We are stating the same.........you originally said...

"Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing." (see above)

I did say you are correct...did I not?

Since you stated your idea of believing vs knowing.... I stated my three ideas about believing vs knowing...and I'll expand to make crystal clear...

1st meaning.... Believing means that you have chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... I cannot prove it...and I have FAITH that it is the TRUTH... ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.....and I am certain.

2nd meaning... Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence....another idea, simple as can be.

3rd meaning... Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness....the last idea....seems simple too.

Please don't try to muddy the waters... Leave out conviction vs choice, as we already discussed that a few months ago....

'Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual.

As that is not necessarily the case, you could be wrong, the distinction lies between faith, believing that what you have is true and factual, and what is actually true and factual regardless of what people believe.

And again, we don't choose to be convinced. The process of conviction is more complex than 'choice.'

"Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual".

No, I realize, not factual to you or other atheist.....JUST ME and a lot of Christians.

Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.

Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false.

Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah?

>>>>Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.<<<<
Regarding God The Bible, no argument here....But who decides?

>>>> Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false<<<<
Regarding God The Bible....Believing means that one has chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... AGAIN, I cannot prove it...BUT I have FAITH that I believe it is the TRUTH...re-read those last 11 words starting with But.

>>>>Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah?<<<<
We do not know....But if that is what Muslims BELIEVE, then it is TRUE in their eyes. I will not diss them.

Originally Posted by Hastings

Ringman, I am going to name you in prayer tonight. I will pray for the enlightenment of both of us. You don't get very far past John 3:16 where we are informed " and this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light".

Thank you! I can't express to you how thankful I am that someone cares enough to do that.

Originally Posted by CCCC

Originally Posted by DBT

Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.
Who would it then be that determines that the "something" is true and factual?

Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false.
If this were to be true, who can make such a choice?

Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah?
Why not? Where would Allah exist - in what realm - determined by whom?

Truths are demonstrable and testable, faith is neither.

Originally Posted by krp

But that is man's/religion's attempt fit God in a box, make him small enough to say we can define...

This is closer...

Orrrrr, there may be no god at all. Just left with that butthole looking thing in the middle.

Originally Posted by Hastings

Originally Posted by DBT

Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.
Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false.
Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah?

I am not exactly addressing your comment but I do believe Allah, El, Jehovah, I am, Yahweh, etc. are names for the same supernatural being. And Islam, Hebrew, and Christianity are closely related. I think it is about time for a lot of us to listen to Spiritual Fantasy by Steppenwolf and get off their high horse of "my way is the only way" but alas I don't know how to get a song onto the discussion. Maybe someone will be able to do it and give a bit of food for thought.

Allah is the Arab word for 'God,' but Islam has a version of God that is different to that of Christianity and Judaism. The god of Islam, Allah, is not the same.