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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,135 Likes: 8 |
Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.
Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false.
Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah? I am not exactly addressing your comment but I do believe Allah, El, Jehovah, I am, Yahweh, etc. are names for the same supernatural being. And Islam, Hebrew, and Christianity are closely related. I think it is about time for a lot of us to listen to Spiritual Fantasy by Steppenwolf and get off their high horse of "my way is the only way" but alas I don't know how to get a song onto the discussion. Maybe someone will be able to do it and give a bit of food for thought.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2008
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Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.
Who would it then be that determines that the "something" is true and factual?
Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false.
If this were to be true, who can make such a choice?
Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah?
Why not? Where would Allah exist - in what realm - determined by whom?
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Ringman, I am going to name you in prayer tonight. I will pray for the enlightenment of both of us. You don't get very far past John 3:16 where we are informed " and this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light".
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,076 Likes: 1 |
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/sDKjKK1W/20220921-200335.jpg) There is only one God and the names don't matter. Kent
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,076 Likes: 1 |
But that is man's/religion's attempt fit God in a box, make him small enough to say we can define... This is closer... ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/HkxpN57h/20220921-200346.jpg)
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing. You are correct...... Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth. Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence. Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness. So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible... Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true. What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction. What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge. Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it. So what is the argument? We are stating the same.........you originally said... "Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing." (see above) I did say you are correct...did I not? Since you stated your idea of believing vs knowing.... I stated my three ideas about believing vs knowing...and I'll expand to make crystal clear... 1st meaning.... Believing means that you have chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... I cannot prove it...and I have FAITH that it is the TRUTH... ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.....and I am certain. 2nd meaning... Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence....another idea, simple as can be. 3rd meaning... Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness....the last idea....seems simple too. Please don't try to muddy the waters... Leave out conviction vs choice, as we already discussed that a few months ago.... 'Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual. As that is not necessarily the case, you could be wrong, the distinction lies between faith, believing that what you have is true and factual, and what is actually true and factual regardless of what people believe. And again, we don't choose to be convinced. The process of conviction is more complex than 'choice.' "Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual". No, I realize, not factual to you or other atheist.....JUST ME and a lot of Christians. Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves. Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false. Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah? >>>>Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.<<<< Regarding God The Bible, no argument here....But who decides? >>>> Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false<<<< Regarding God The Bible....Believing means that one has chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... AGAIN, I cannot prove it...BUT I have FAITH that I believe it is the TRUTH...re-read those last 11 words starting with But. >>>>Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah?<<<< We do not know....But if that is what Muslims BELIEVE, then it is TRUE in their eyes. I will not diss them.
Last edited by Raspy; 09/21/22. Reason: spelling
Illegitimi non carborundum
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
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Ringman, I am going to name you in prayer tonight. I will pray for the enlightenment of both of us. You don't get very far past John 3:16 where we are informed " and this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light". Thank you ! I can't express to you how thankful I am that someone cares enough to do that.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Joined: May 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
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Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.
Who would it then be that determines that the "something" is true and factual?
Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false.
If this were to be true, who can make such a choice?
Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah?
Why not? Where would Allah exist - in what realm - determined by whom? Truths are demonstrable and testable, faith is neither.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
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But that is man's/religion's attempt fit God in a box, make him small enough to say we can define... This is closer... Orrrrr, there may be no god at all. Just left with that butthole looking thing in the middle.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
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Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.
Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false.
Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah? I am not exactly addressing your comment but I do believe Allah, El, Jehovah, I am, Yahweh, etc. are names for the same supernatural being. And Islam, Hebrew, and Christianity are closely related. I think it is about time for a lot of us to listen to Spiritual Fantasy by Steppenwolf and get off their high horse of "my way is the only way" but alas I don't know how to get a song onto the discussion. Maybe someone will be able to do it and give a bit of food for thought. Allah is the Arab word for 'God,' but Islam has a version of God that is different to that of Christianity and Judaism. The god of Islam, Allah, is not the same.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,659 Likes: 1 |
Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing. You are correct...... Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth. Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence. Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness. So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible... Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true. What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction. What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge. Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it. So what is the argument? We are stating the same.........you originally said... "Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing." (see above) I did say you are correct...did I not? Since you stated your idea of believing vs knowing.... I stated my three ideas about believing vs knowing...and I'll expand to make crystal clear... 1st meaning.... Believing means that you have chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... I cannot prove it...and I have FAITH that it is the TRUTH... ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.....and I am certain. 2nd meaning... Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence....another idea, simple as can be. 3rd meaning... Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness....the last idea....seems simple too. Please don't try to muddy the waters... Leave out conviction vs choice, as we already discussed that a few months ago.... 'Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual. As that is not necessarily the case, you could be wrong, the distinction lies between faith, believing that what you have is true and factual, and what is actually true and factual regardless of what people believe. And again, we don't choose to be convinced. The process of conviction is more complex than 'choice.' "Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual". No, I realize, not factual to you or other atheist.....JUST ME and a lot of Christians. Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves. Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false. Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah? >>>>Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.<<<< Regarding God The Bible, no argument here....But who decides? >>>> Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false<<<< Regarding God The Bible....Believing means that one has chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... AGAIN, I cannot prove it...BUT I have FAITH that I believe it is the TRUTH...re-read those last 11 words starting with But. >>>>Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah?<<<< We do not know....But if that is what Muslims BELIEVE, then it is TRUE in their eyes. I will not diss them. Belief alone cannot be used to establish the truth of what is being believed. It's a fallacy called ''begging the question.'' If the word 'truth' represents the facts of the world, all the things of the world and how they work, it takes more than just belief to establish truth, it takes verifiable, testable evidence. Belief is easy, anyone can believe anything and call it 'truth,' because that suits their needs. But that's not how reality works, where things may not be as we would like.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,076 Likes: 1 |
But that is man's/religion's attempt fit God in a box, make him small enough to say we can define... This is closer... Orrrrr, there may be no god at all. Just left with that butthole looking thing in the middle. There may be no God at all... Interesting that you wrote 'may be' and not 'is', subconsciously you are leaving the door open whether you realize it or not. Kent
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,135 Likes: 8
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,135 Likes: 8 |
Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves.
Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false.
Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah? I am not exactly addressing your comment but I do believe Allah, El, Jehovah, I am, Yahweh, etc. are names for the same supernatural being. And Islam, Hebrew, and Christianity are closely related. I think it is about time for a lot of us to listen to Spiritual Fantasy by Steppenwolf and get off their high horse of "my way is the only way" but alas I don't know how to get a song onto the discussion. Maybe someone will be able to do it and give a bit of food for thought. Allah is the Arab word for 'God,' but Islam has a version of God that is different to that of Christianity and Judaism. The god of Islam, Allah, is not the same. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all originate from the covenant with Abraham. The God they worship is the same one with different names assigned and differing beliefs about the nature of the prophet Jesus. They all accept the major prophets.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 45,030 Likes: 26 |
The come one come all dirty mass,s worldwide flocking here from the rest of the planet. And the overall Liberal Socialist Democrat hate of christianity in order to undermine that which they really hate. The Constitution....... Been part of LBJ,s great society schit for almost 6 decades.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2007
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DBT and Mauser.
Have either of you ever read the New Testament from beginning to end?
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,422 Likes: 13 |
Jesus said that it's God's will that NONE should perish. To that end, Jesus died, taking our sins on his own head. All we have to do is have faith that he did it for us. People who never hear of the Bible? It's God's will that they won't perish either. Some how, he makes it possible for them to have the choice, too. We aren't told how, just that every person has his chance. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock In this case, they had plenty of time to repent. God told Abraham that their sin wasn't yet full. Then he gave them another 500 years to repent. They didn't and God finally sent in the Hebrews to take care of them permanently. They got off to a good start but quit before the job was done. Now we have all the Middle East problems as a result.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2015
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There is only one God and the names don't matter. Kent That is the Masonic Heresy.
Politics is War by Other Means
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,135 Likes: 8 |
There is only one God and the names don't matter.
Kent That is the Masonic Heresy. Really? Says who?
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,268 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,268 Likes: 7 |
I wonder what happens to all those billions of souls scattered all over the earth that never got to read about Jesus, never heard of him, and sure never saw him. They didn't know about God's son and didn't have the opportunity to accept or reject him. That is a problem. Everyone will have a chance, then the judging is up to God. If you understood the character of God, you wouldn't really have to ask that question.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,422 Likes: 13 |
There is only one God and the names don't matter. Kent There is only 1 Jesus and that DOES matter. Salvation requires belief that Jesus died and rose from the dead and that he is God himself. Of all the names on that drawing, ONLY Christianity believes that. The rest are false. God gives every single person a chance to choose Jesus. We aren't told how, only that he does. If they don't repent, they're hell bound. All those other religions are keeping them from salvation, not bringing them to it.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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