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....I find the above 2 examples as evidence, but not bulletproof PROOF, which is why believing in the existence of God of the Bible is a matter of my faith, and not PROOF. Why the faith though? If you are not convinced something is true, why bother with wanting to believe it?
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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I can sort of relate to that....I contend there is much evidence but no earth-shattering positive proof.... The bible is unique in many respects. Not only was it composed by at least 40 writers, on multiple continents, over a span of 1,500 years, but it is not what we would expect to find were it “made up".......just 2 examples follows below....
***Dr. Nelson Glueck was the president of Hebrew Union College and a highly respected archaeologist whose reliance upon the historical accuracy of Scripture led to the discovery of 1,500 ancient sites. Regarding the Bible and archaeology, he stated the following:
"It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of biblical description has often led to amazing discoveries."
***The distinguished archaeologist Dr. William F. Albright also asserted the accuracy of the Bible’s history.
"Thanks to modern research, we now recognize its substantial historicity. The narratives of the Patriarchs, of Moses and the Exodus, of the Conquest of Canaan, of the Judges, the Monarchy, Exile, and Restoration, have all been confirmed and illustrated to an extent that I should have thought impossible forty years ago."
I find the above 2 examples as evidence, but not bulletproof PROOF, which is why believing in the existence of God of the Bible is a matter of my faith, and not PROOF. How evidence is being defined may be a problem. We can't just declare 'this is evidence' without having a reasonable standard of what is, or is not evidence.
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Luke documented that God told Ananias that Paul was His chosen instrument to proclaim His name to the Gentiles ‘and’ to the Jews. God recruited Paul, and he made it clear that everyone’s ‘always’ been saved by faith, one is ‘never’ saved by works, not even Jews in the Old Testament. If that's all it takes then the rest of the bible is just a "hard sell", and superfluous i'd say, not to mention the false "facts" and immorality contained within it, and reliance on the stories of the old testament as a reason for the need for salvation.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Mark 10:17-22 is about faith and works.
The rich young man had faith, but wasn't willing to do any works beyond the "Thou shall nots".
This get's back to the original question of the thread. People are not stupid. When they hear authorities say that all you have to do is accept Jesus, they want to believe these authorities because people are basically lazy. People aren't stupid, they understand that if this is true, they don't have to go to church, read the Bible or actually do anything.
It's like being taught Wokeness. People aren't stupid. The hear that stuff and understand that it's easier to be victim than to actually take control of life and do stuff.
Politics is War by Other Means
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By FAITH Abel OFFERED a more excellent sacrifice, and even though he is dead he still speaks............
You can't separate them and win!
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
( . Y . )
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If you live in faith your actions will reflect that naturally... you can call that works if you want.
No amount of works will automatically bring you faith.
Kent
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No amount of works will automatically bring you faith. I don't think anyone said that they would.
Politics is War by Other Means
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I've been gone for a week and lost track of this thread. I see that James has been quoted a few times in discussing faith vs works. It's often overlooked that James was written to saved Jews. It wasn't written to tell how to get saved. It was written to tell what do AFTER being saved. The statement that faith without works is dead is telling those already saved that they need to do works for the Lord rather than just sitting on their butts doing nothing. How would you teach this concept? If you were instructing new Christians, how would you train them to view the quality and or quantity of their works and white degree of impact on their salvation with those works at? Are you saying that the salvation of a human being is ultimately defined by the works that they do? James was a Jew who wrote to Jews under the Mosaic Law, James 1:1. As he was under the gospel of the kingdom, faith plus works were bound together for Jews. Salvation by faith alone (the gospel of grace later by Paul) was unknown to the Jews at that time. Since James was written between 45-50 AD and is one of the earliest books, James had no knowledge or understanding of Paul’s gospel of grace yet. James zealously believed in the Mosaic Law and having faith plus works, James 2:18. Old Testament salvation required required faith and works, and James was written like an O.T. Book to Jews, not Gentiles. The salvation doctrine by faith alone was unknown before Paul was commissioned by the ascended Lord. Since Paul, we are now saved by having faith alone in the finished work of Jesus. Paul clearly teaches that the covenant of Grace was what saved Abraham. He quoted what Moses was inspired to write, “Abraham believed God (the promise of the messiah and the forgiveness of sin) and it was COUNTED to him as righteousness”. Abraham was saved by grace. Imputation, while not named, was taught in Genesis. Paul simply expanded on the teaching in his writings. Abraham lived before the dispensation of the law and was saved by his faith, Roman’s 4:3. God established His plan with Israel beginning with Abraham and began a new plan later with Paul. Before Paul, no one was saved by faith alone except for Abraham. Abraham was saved by believing what God said in Genesis 15. Dispensational theology is a satanic invention dreamed up in the 1800’s. It isn’t an orthodox Christine doctrine.
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I can sort of relate to that....I contend there is much evidence but no earth-shattering positive proof.... The bible is unique in many respects. Not only was it composed by at least 40 writers, on multiple continents, over a span of 1,500 years, but it is not what we would expect to find were it “made up".......just 2 examples follows below....
***Dr. Nelson Glueck was the president of Hebrew Union College and a highly respected archaeologist whose reliance upon the historical accuracy of Scripture led to the discovery of 1,500 ancient sites. Regarding the Bible and archaeology, he stated the following:
"It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of biblical description has often led to amazing discoveries."
***The distinguished archaeologist Dr. William F. Albright also asserted the accuracy of the Bible’s history.
"Thanks to modern research, we now recognize its substantial historicity. The narratives of the Patriarchs, of Moses and the Exodus, of the Conquest of Canaan, of the Judges, the Monarchy, Exile, and Restoration, have all been confirmed and illustrated to an extent that I should have thought impossible forty years ago."
I find the above 2 examples as evidence, but not bulletproof PROOF, which is why believing in the existence of God of the Bible is a matter of my faith, and not PROOF. How evidence is being defined may be a problem. We can't just declare 'this is evidence' without having a reasonable standard of what is, or is not evidence. I agree....distinctions among kinds of evidence (including scientific data, expert judgment, observation, and theory) are difficult to ascertain....
Illegitimi non carborundum
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....I find the above 2 examples as evidence, but not bulletproof PROOF, which is why believing in the existence of God of the Bible is a matter of my faith, and not PROOF. Why the faith though? If you are not convinced something is true, why bother with wanting to believe it? Having faith in the Lord is about more than simply believing He is real. It’s about actually doing what God, the Bible dictates for people like me that are a follower of the faith. It’s about living your life the way your faith says you should. After all, if you really had faith in God and the Bible, you’d be inclined to obey its commandments, and that is why I have a drive for faith, at least I would like to think so.... We have no evidence that there is an afterlife. It’s not like the dead can come back and tell us that Heaven really exists. There is no scientific reason to believe that there is anything after death. And yet, Christians like me have faith in the belief that Heaven awaits God’s people.....but of course I could be wrong, but that's my take...
Illegitimi non carborundum
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Campfire Kahuna
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James was a Jew who wrote to Jews under the Mosaic Law, James 1:1. As he was under the gospel of the kingdom, faith plus works were bound together for Jews. Salvation by faith alone (the gospel of grace later by Paul) was unknown to the Jews at that time. It was unknown to everyone until Luther invented it. Luther wrote Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. ??? Luther didn't invent it. He recognized that the RCC was hiding it and he made it known to the believers.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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James was a Jew who wrote to Jews under the Mosaic Law, James 1:1. As he was under the gospel of the kingdom, faith plus works were bound together for Jews. Salvation by faith alone (the gospel of grace later by Paul) was unknown to the Jews at that time. It was unknown to everyone until Luther invented it. Luther wrote Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. ??? Luther didn't invent it. He recognized that the RCC was hiding it and he made it known to the believers. Luther added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28. Yes, faith has to come first, but as Christ pointed out to the rich young man, works must follow.
Politics is War by Other Means
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I see in the rich young ruler a man who was very sad and disheartened when it was made clear to him by Jesus Himself that “keeping all of the commandments since my birth” (works) wasn’t going to earn him salvation. To me, the position of works based salvation diminishes God’s grace that He extended to us, and it diminishes what Jesus did on the cross for us. God’s grace, love, peace, and mercy don’t need any help from us. This get's back to the original question of the thread. Does ‘the Church’…the body of believers, individually and collectively…bear any responsibility at all……? When young people come home from college with real academic questions about the faith of Christianity (for example), and they’re given Sunday School answers, does that have a negative impact…? When they’re told they must believe in the literal 6 day creation in Genesis (for example) in order to believe The Gospel, does that have a negative impact…? When they see Christians selectively ranking sin, and focusing on the moral failures of others while ignoring their own moral failures, and pretending that someone else’s sin is worse than their own sin, does that have a negative impact…?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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I see in the rich young ruler a man who was very sad and disheartened when it was made clear to him by Jesus Himself that “keeping all of the commandments since my birth” (works) wasn’t going to earn him salvation. To me, the position of works based salvation diminishes God’s grace that He extended to us, and it diminishes what Jesus did on the cross for us. God’s grace, love, peace, and mercy don’t need any help from us. I think it's patently obvious that Jesus was asking him for more works. This get's back to the original question of the thread. Does ‘the Church’…the body of believers, individually and collectively…bear any responsibility at all……? When young people come home from college with real academic questions about the faith of Christianity (for example), and they’re given Sunday School answers, does that have a negative impact…? When they’re told they must believe in the literal 6 day creation in Genesis (for example) in order to believe The Gospel, does that have a negative impact…? When they see Christians selectively ranking sin, and focusing on the moral failures of others while ignoring their own moral failures, and pretending that someone else’s sin is worse than their own sin, does that have a negative impact…? Sure, there's a lot of factors. But antinomianism is probably the biggest. It is the most recently fashionable. It's a perfect sin for us over-entertained moderns who think they have to be entertained every waking moment. The other things that you perceive as failings have been going on since the beginning of time.
Politics is War by Other Means
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I see in the rich young ruler a man who was very sad and disheartened when it was made clear to him by Jesus Himself that “keeping all of the commandments since my birth” (works) wasn’t going to earn him salvation. To me, the position of works based salvation diminishes God’s grace that He extended to us, and it diminishes what Jesus did on the cross for us. God’s grace, love, peace, and mercy don’t need any help from us. I think it's patently obvious that Jesus was asking him for more works. To me, it’s more about that first, Jesus made it clear to the rich young ruler that he wasn’t going to earn salvation by his good works. And ‘then’ Jesus changed the subject to money…something that He talked about more than Heaven itself…because He recognized that his love of his wealth was another source of the rich young ruler’s problem (in addition to him mistakenly thinking that his good works could earn him salvation). This get's back to the original question of the thread. Does ‘the Church’…the body of believers, individually and collectively…bear any responsibility at all……? When young people come home from college with real academic questions about the faith of Christianity (for example), and they’re given Sunday School answers, does that have a negative impact…? When they’re told they must believe in the literal 6 day creation in Genesis (for example) in order to believe The Gospel, does that have a negative impact…? When they see Christians selectively ranking sin, and focusing on the moral failures of others while ignoring their own moral failures, and pretending that someone else’s sin is worse than their own sin, does that have a negative impact…? Sure, there's a lot of factors. But antinomianism is probably the biggest. It is the most recently fashionable. It's a perfect sin for us over-entertained moderns who think they have to be entertained every waking moment. The other things that you perceive as failings have been going on since the beginning of time. I certainly don’t think that Christianity is declining by leaps and bounds in America because of the position that Jesus’ followers are freed by God’s grace from the necessity of obeying the Mosaic Law. And I’ve yet to know of anyone who walked away from Christianity for reasons that had anything to do with the original version of the faith. I think it’s possible that the decline of Christianity in America is partially because the church…and many in it…pound it into people that the Bible is the basis of Christianity. It’s not, and it never has been. When the faith stands on anything other than Jesus…and especially His resurrection…it is weakened and set up to fail and fall. I also think it’s possible that the decline is partially due to the fact that ‘the church’ doesn’t make a lotta people feel very welcome. It wasn’t just Jesus’ message that made Him attractive to other’s; He clearly liked people who were nothing like Him. And He invited them to follow Him…despite them being completely unlike Him in nearly every way…and embrace something that was brand new, and they felt welcomed and accepted His invitation. And a lotta people have had a lotta bad experiences with ‘the church’ and most of em’ were likely due to ‘the church’ or someone in it prioritizing their religious views over people themselves ~ and that’s something that Jesus ‘never’ did. He even instructed His followers not to do it either. Legalism and self-righteousness are leftovers of the old covenant rules and regulations, which Jesus replaced by His ‘work’ on the cross. I think it’s possible that a lotta people who feel they’ve been diminished by the church or someone in it…or a lotta people who are just burned out in their faith for whatever reason or reasons…can take a step back toward Jesus and shed whatever religious baggage they have, by realizing that the foundation of the faith is an event (the resurrection) and a person (Jesus), it’s not a book. I also think it’s possible that if ‘the church’ really wants people to stop leaving Christianity…if they really want the faith to be attractive again…then maybe they oughta take another look at the original movement that Jesus Himself started over a couple of thousand years ago.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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I see in the rich young ruler a man who was very sad and disheartened when it was made clear to him by Jesus Himself that “keeping all of the commandments since my birth” (works) wasn’t going to earn him salvation. To me, the position of works based salvation diminishes God’s grace that He extended to us, and it diminishes what Jesus did on the cross for us. God’s grace, love, peace, and mercy don’t need any help from us. I think it's patently obvious that Jesus was asking him for more works. To me, it’s more about that first, Jesus made it clear to the rich young ruler that he wasn’t going to earn salvation by his good works. And ‘then’ Jesus changed the subject to money…something that He talked about more than Heaven itself…because He recognized that his love of his wealth was another source of the rich young ruler’s problem (in addition to him mistakenly thinking that his good works could earn him salvation). This get's back to the original question of the thread. Does ‘the Church’…the body of believers, individually and collectively…bear any responsibility at all……? When young people come home from college with real academic questions about the faith of Christianity (for example), and they’re given Sunday School answers, does that have a negative impact…? When they’re told they must believe in the literal 6 day creation in Genesis (for example) in order to believe The Gospel, does that have a negative impact…? When they see Christians selectively ranking sin, and focusing on the moral failures of others while ignoring their own moral failures, and pretending that someone else’s sin is worse than their own sin, does that have a negative impact…? Sure, there's a lot of factors. But antinomianism is probably the biggest. It is the most recently fashionable. It's a perfect sin for us over-entertained moderns who think they have to be entertained every waking moment. The other things that you perceive as failings have been going on since the beginning of time. I certainly don’t think that Christianity is declining by leaps and bounds in America because of the position that Jesus’ followers are freed by God’s grace from the necessity of obeying the Mosaic Law. And I’ve yet to know of anyone who walked away from Christianity for reasons that had anything to do with the original version of the faith. I think it’s possible that the decline of Christianity in America is partially because the church…and many in it…pound it into people that the Bible is the basis of Christianity. It’s not, and it never has been. When the faith stands on anything other than Jesus…and especially His resurrection…it is weakened and set up to fail and fall. I also think it’s possible that the decline is partially due to the fact that ‘the church’ doesn’t make a lotta people feel very welcome. It wasn’t just Jesus’ message that made Him attractive to other’s; He clearly liked people who were nothing like Him. And He invited them to follow Him…despite them being completely unlike Him in nearly every way…and embrace something that was brand new, and they felt welcomed and accepted His invitation. And a lotta people have had a lotta bad experiences with ‘the church’ and most of em’ were likely due to ‘the church’ or someone in it prioritizing their religious views over people themselves ~ and that’s something that Jesus ‘never’ did. He even instructed His followers not to do it either. Legalism and self-righteousness are leftovers of the old covenant rules and regulations, which Jesus replaced by His ‘work’ on the cross. I think it’s possible that a lotta people who feel they’ve been diminished by the church or someone in it…or a lotta people who are just burned out in their faith for whatever reason or reasons…can take a step back toward Jesus and shed whatever religious baggage they have, by realizing that the foundation of the faith is an event (the resurrection) and a person (Jesus), it’s not a book. I also think it’s possible that if ‘the church’ really wants people to stop leaving Christianity…if they really want the faith to be attractive again…then maybe they oughta take another look at the original movement that Jesus Himself started over a couple of thousand years ago. You are not even close to the reason young people are leaving the church. Pole after pole shows it's because they believe in millions of years and evolution.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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You are not even close to the reason young people are leaving the church. Pole after pole shows it's because they believe in millions of years and evolution. That was also alluded to earlier, several times by me since this thread began. Does ‘the Church’…the body of believers, individually and collectively…bear any responsibility at all……? When young people come home from college with real academic questions about the faith of Christianity (for example), and they’re given Sunday School answers, does that have a negative impact…? When they’re told they must believe in the literal 6 day creation in Genesis (for example) in order to believe The Gospel, does that have a negative impact…? When they see Christians selectively ranking sin, and focusing on the moral failures of others while ignoring their own moral failures, and pretending that someone else’s sin is worse than their own sin, does that have a negative impact…? And what about people who are leaving the church who aren’t young people…?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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....I find the above 2 examples as evidence, but not bulletproof PROOF, which is why believing in the existence of God of the Bible is a matter of my faith, and not PROOF. Why the faith though? If you are not convinced something is true, why bother with wanting to believe it? Having faith in the Lord is about more than simply believing He is real. It’s about actually doing what God, the Bible dictates for people like me that are a follower of the faith. It’s about living your life the way your faith says you should. After all, if you really had faith in God and the Bible, you’d be inclined to obey its commandments, and that is why I have a drive for faith, at least I would like to think so.... We have no evidence that there is an afterlife. It’s not like the dead can come back and tell us that Heaven really exists. There is no scientific reason to believe that there is anything after death. And yet, Christians like me have faith in the belief that Heaven awaits God’s people.....but of course I could be wrong, but that's my take... That doesn't answer the question - you answered with what you believe, but not why. Is the why because Pascal's flawed Wager put the fear into you?
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
That, simply put, is the gift of God Himself to a believer. And it is why I believe.
It is available to everyone. Just accept it!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Always interpret scripture with scripture. Compare passages to determine the truth.
Was Jesus telling the rich young ruler that he needed works for salvation? Compare that to this:
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
That's 100% salvation by faith alone. If this is true, then it's impossible that Jesus was telling the young ruler he needed to earn it.
When Jesus said 'truly, truly' before a statement (or verily or amen, depending on the translation), he meant 'Listen up. This is important'. He said that John 5:24 is important so pay attention. He never said 'truly truly you need to work your way in'. He said BELIEVE to get in. Nothing more or less.
Jesus knew where the young ruler's heart was - on his money. Jesus tested him to force him to choose - faith or money. He didn't have the faith to be saved. Jesus later said that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. The needle part isn't some small gate. It's impossible and Jesus meant just that. But, while it's impossible, God can make the impossible possible. In spite of being rich, a person can get to heaven through faith.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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