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>>>>From DBT
I am arguing for evidence as justification, that evidence is necessary whenever we are sorting fact from fiction, so to say to that 'you would not be convinced by any amount of evidence' is absurd.<<<<
Do you really mean you need evidence as a justification or proof?
Evidence comes in varying degrees of quality. An eyewitness who can testify to someone’s general height, weight, and body frame can deliver evidence, but not like an eyewitness who can testify that the person involved is definitely his brother-in-law. The latter may serve as proof, where the former couldn’t. Either way it’s still evidence.
The Bible itself is evidence of Christianity and the existence of God: Is Christianity more likely to be true, given the existence of the Bible? Of course! Obviously the existence of the Bible, on its own and without close inspection of its contents, doesn’t come anywhere near providing proof. It’s still evidence, on any normal understanding of the term and I chose to believe the evidence in the Christian Bible. The bible is evidence of Christianity....the new testament being its foundation. Which does not mean that what is written in the new testament (or OT) is evidence for the truth of their supernatural stories: circular reasoning, begging the question, etc.....
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Campfire Ranger
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Where did the Universe come from?
God made it!
Where did God come from?
Man invented God, again and again, in about a million different forms, over many millennia.
So, again, where did the Universe come from?
Who knows? Allow me to answer one of your questions. Asking from where God came is like asking to whom is the bachelor married? It's a nonsecquitor. It conveys nonsense. God is Infinite. Therefore cannot be invented.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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>>>>From DBT
I am arguing for evidence as justification, that evidence is necessary whenever we are sorting fact from fiction, so to say to that 'you would not be convinced by any amount of evidence' is absurd.<<<<
Do you really mean you need evidence as a justification or proof?
Evidence comes in varying degrees of quality. An eyewitness who can testify to someone’s general height, weight, and body frame can deliver evidence, but not like an eyewitness who can testify that the person involved is definitely his brother-in-law. The latter may serve as proof, where the former couldn’t. Either way it’s still evidence.
The Bible itself is evidence of Christianity and the existence of God: Is Christianity more likely to be true, given the existence of the Bible? Of course! Obviously the existence of the Bible, on its own and without close inspection of its contents, doesn’t come anywhere near providing proof. It’s still evidence, on any normal understanding of the term and I chose to believe the evidence in the Christian Bible. The bible is evidence of Christianity....the new testament being its foundation. Which does not mean that what is written in the new testament (or OT) is evidence for the truth of their supernatural stories: circular reasoning, begging the question, etc..... For me and most on the Fire, it is evidence for the truth, but not PROOF...I mean we can keep going and going like the energizer bunny...you say NOT SO and I/we say YES IT IS....
Illegitimi non carborundum
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Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing. You just described yourself, this mauser clown, and all the other atheists to a "T". Congrats. Ha! like it!
Illegitimi non carborundum
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Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing. You just described yourself, this mauser clown, and all the other atheists to a "T". Congrats. Ha! like it! Absolutely!
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Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing. You just described yourself, this mauser clown, and all the other atheists to a "T". Congrats. The theists are the ones claiming to know, without a shred of demonstrable evidence, and at times using documentation that contains proven false accounts.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Prove it - that he/she/it exists, and then that he/she/it is infinite. God is Infinite. Therefore cannot be invented. I could easily invent a god to the same level of proof as yours, and that is a fu ck-ton better than any other god out there.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing. You are correct...... Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth. Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence. Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness. So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible...
Illegitimi non carborundum
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Haven’t read this thread, but by my count, the Dems are importing a couple million Catholic illegal aliens a year.
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Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing. You are correct...... Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth. Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence. Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness. So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible... Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true. What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction. What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge. Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it.
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Prove it - that he/she/it exists, and then that he/she/it is infinite. Prove otherwise ....... You cannot.
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God is Infinite. Therefore cannot be invented. I could easily invent a god to the same level of proof as yours, and that is a fu ck-ton better than any other god out there. That implies that yours would be different. If yours was different, then reality would have to change. How would yours be different?
Politics is War by Other Means
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Campfire Kahuna
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I've never seen a serious explanation of where the big bang's ball of matter & energy came from. How can anyone believe that it was always there from eternity past but God wasn't there from eternity past?
I haven't read all of this thread but can say that this has been prophesied. Jesus said the end would come like a thief in the night - when no one was expecting it. It would come fast and furious. The REAL church will not only be small but it will be underground, just like in it's earliest days in Rome. There will be a false church that will expand and it's doctrine taught world wide but it will be anti-Christian, led by Satan, to turn people from the truth. It's already started with some churches allowing sexual sin and abortion. Jesus said that the path to heaven will be narrow but the road to destruction will be broad and busy.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Raspy, you and I think a lot alike. Some time back I got into the same back and forth here with an atheist over proof vs. evidence. I contend that neither Christian nor atheist has proof; both have evidence and choose what they want to believe. Another example of this would be the 2020 election. There is plenty of evidence that the election of Biden was fraudulent, but to date there is no proof. For those of us who support Trump, the evidence is so clear to us that we think that it rises to the level of proof; but so far, that evidence has not been presented before the proper authorities for it to be judged. For those opposed to Trump, the evidence is dismissed as either flimsy, unsubstantiated, or, if true, insufficient to have affected the outcome. Neither side will admit that it is wrong. It is somewhat amusing to me that likely some of those who are adamant that Trump was cheated out of a second term are completely dismissive of even the possibility of God's existence.
If God wanted to provide absolute proof of his existence, he would have. I think He wants us to love Him by choice, not simply believe in Him because there is no other choice to be had. After all, "Even the demons believe, and shudder!"
The biggest problem our country has is not systemic racism, it's systemic stupidity.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
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It's already started with some churches allowing sexual sin and abortion. Should churches cherry-pick which type of sin they’ll allow, given the fact that every single church goer is a sinner, as well as every single pastor and deacon and elder, etc….? Honest question man. Would Jesus Himself give the cold shoulder to those folks…?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Ranger
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All over the World, big nanny-state government and prosperity seem to be causes. But I think those are only proximate causes. Does ‘the Church’…the body of believers, individually and collectively…bear any responsibility at all……? This is driven largely by the younger generation leaving the church. Not surprised at all. When they come home from college with real academic questions about the faith of Christianity (for example), and they’re given Sunday School answers, does that have a negative impact…? When they’re told they must believe in the literal 6 day creation in Genesis (for example) in order to believe The Gospel, does that have a negative impact…? When they see Christians selectively ranking sin, and focusing on the moral failures of others while ignoring their own moral failures, and pretending that someone else’s sin is worse than their own sin, does that have a negative impact…?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Raspy, you and I think a lot alike. Some time back I got into the same back and forth here with an atheist over proof vs. evidence. I contend that neither Christian nor atheist has proof; both have evidence and choose what they want to believe. Another example of this would be the 2020 election. There is plenty of evidence that the election of Biden was fraudulent, but to date there is no proof. For those of us who support Trump, the evidence is so clear to us that we think that it rises to the level of proof; but so far, that evidence has not been presented before the proper authorities for it to be judged. For those opposed to Trump, the evidence is dismissed as either flimsy, unsubstantiated, or, if true, insufficient to have affected the outcome. Neither side will admit that it is wrong. It is somewhat amusing to me that likely some of those who are adamant that Trump was cheated out of a second term are completely dismissive of even the possibility of God's existence.
If God wanted to provide absolute proof of his existence, he would have. I think He wants us to love Him by choice, not simply believe in Him because there is no other choice to be had. After all, "Even the demons believe, and shudder!" You are correct regarding God's existence...but there was proof of fraud in the 2020 election....our chicken schiet Supreme Court passed the buck, they just did not want to get involved, and said there was no standing...
Illegitimi non carborundum
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Campfire Ranger
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Prove it - that he/she/it exists, and then that he/she/it is infinite. Prove otherwise ....... You cannot. Prove God is infinite. Prove God exist? What a childish statement !We can confirm to many people’s satisfaction God exists. Even to PhD degree and Master’s degree scientists. The God of the Bible implies Infiniteness. We live in what appears to be an infinite universe; opinions to the contrary notwithstanding. The amount of energy in the universe appears to be almost infinite. The universe appears to be somewhat ordered, but is running down due to entropy. If it is running down logic dictates it had a beginning. In order to start this whole thing one would be a fool to think it came about without a cause. “Science” teaches us, who will learn, everything requires something greater than itself to cause it to be. Infinite requires nothing greater because nothing can be greater than infinite. Consider the DNA molecule. It can be read forward and backward by RNA. It appears RNA can start almost anywhere along the strand and make sense of it and produce appendages on creatures protruding from opposite side that are the same length but mirror images of each other. DNA produces RNA ! Random CAN NOT do this. To think random can do anything ordered is, well, foolish. But rejecting the God of the Bible is more palatable to ego-centric arrogant humans than admitting they don’t know everything. They reject God for the same reason the ditch digger or garbage man does. They want to be their own person. Period. Therefore they accept worldly fables about nothing producing everything; including consciousness and moral absolutes. Sad. Very sad.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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It's already started with some churches allowing sexual sin and abortion. Should churches cherry-pick which type of sin they’ll allow, given the fact that every single church goer is a sinner, as well as every single pastor and deacon and elder, etc….? Honest question man. Would Jesus Himself give the cold shoulder to those folks…? Perhaps you are extrapolating your life onto the general church. I, like Apostle Paul, am not aware of sin in my life. Over the years I have repented when someone loved me enough to confront me from God's Word, the Bible. Some of us are not practicing sinners. First John teaches those who practice sin are of the devil. I don't. And based on your posts I don't perceive you are either.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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