I hope y’all will forgive me for jumping in and out of this thread. I have been AFK for a few days and am again catching up a bit.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
So just pick one and go for it. Why Christianity though? What don't you like about all the others?
You have had this answered several times. You either lack the intelligence to remember what was posted several pages back, or you are being deliberately obtuse by not directly refuting it. Please, no one give him any hints. Let's see if he can, or will, figure it out and address it.
Your purpose is not to inform, because, according to you, there is nothing to be informed about. No, your purpose is to agitate, aggravate, and disrupt.
No, it was ever answered. Just faith in one with justification from a flawed Pascals wager. I never got a rational answer to why that particular god. Theists have difficulty answering simple questions about their faith but they bank their eternal afterlife on it - you'd think there would be a compelling argument, to convince themselves at least if not others.
Yes, it has been answered. You can’t be bothered to look back through the thread for the answer and you can’t be bothered to learn enough about the faith that you are so eager to denounce to know the answer; or, you are deliberately being obtuse (again/still). That’s because you are not interested in answers. You are interested in agitation, aggravation, and disruption.
The answer is, of course, the resurrection. This is how and why I choose to be a Christian. Since I was not born into the Jewish faith, if not for the resurrection of Christ I would be a free agent, spiritually speaking. Who knows what faith, if any, I might have chosen? I might have joined you in your atheistic faith.
It is easy to win arguments when you simply dismiss evidence that doesn’t fit your narrative, the way you dismiss the eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ resurrection. Those eyewitnesses suffered for their testimony. They were persecuted, and often tortured and killed; and you want us to think that this was just to perpetrate a hoax, a practical joke? What about Jesus’ body? What became of it? You can bet that if it were still around, the Romans and the Pharisees would have gone full-blown Mogadishu with it. They certainly enjoyed mocking Him while He was on the cross, they would have had a field day dispelling the claims that He had returned to life after being killed by them. But they didn’t because He was not there to be found. You seem not to be able to get past the fact that God did all He has done without you being present from the Creation to the Resurrection; or that some of the things God has done don’t meet with your approval. Boo hoo.
All of your criticisms of Christianity mean nothing if you can’t disprove the resurrection. Yes, there have been a lot of bad things done under the guise of Christianity and The Church, and still are. Humans are sinful creatures, all of us. If it were not so, we would have no need of a savior.
Whether the atheists on this thread realize it or not, they have benefitted greatly by living in a world that has been so heavily influenced by Christianity. The world the atheists would have would be a world without morals; after all, we humans are just another form of animal, right? So, why would we not behave as animals; that is, as either predator or prey? And most importantly, it would be a world largely devoid of love where people saw each other as only useful or not useful towards fulfilling their own selfish desires. I expect that much of human progress would not exist, since the United States, which has been the economic engine of the world for a while now, was founded by men who were for the most part believers. You and untold numbers of others have derived great benefit from the social, economic, and judicial norms that a Christianized world has established. We Americans say we are “endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights...” Well, no Creator, no rights. You only are left with the “privileges” that the tyrants you are enslaved by decide you can have.
But take heart, atheists: the world now seems to be seeing things more and more the way you would have it to, according to the link in the OP. How’s that working out? Are things getting more and more tranquil and stable, as an accidental, evolving planet ought to? Or are people acting more and more like the mere animals you claim we are? In the vacuum of a world without God, every man does what is right in his own sight; the strong and aggressive live, and the weak and the passive are killed. I say again that Christianity is not the problem, it is the solution. The world did not get into the fix it is in by being too Christian.
The biggest problem our country has is not systemic racism, it's systemic stupidity.
Isn’t it amazing that people who have admittedly read, but not studied the Bible can become experts on what it contains simply by reading the books of people who deny its authenticity?
Again, If I had no other source of information than the OT and the gospel of Matthew would I have enough information to achieve salvation? Say I didn't know anything about early Christianity or Paul or Luke or the Acts or anything else? Put me on an island and those writings delivered to me.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
I hope y’all will forgive me for jumping in and out of this thread. I have been AFK for a few days and am again catching up a bit.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
So just pick one and go for it. Why Christianity though? What don't you like about all the others?
You have had this answered several times. You either lack the intelligence to remember what was posted several pages back, or you are being deliberately obtuse by not directly refuting it. Please, no one give him any hints. Let's see if he can, or will, figure it out and address it.
Your purpose is not to inform, because, according to you, there is nothing to be informed about. No, your purpose is to agitate, aggravate, and disrupt.
No, it was ever answered. Just faith in one with justification from a flawed Pascals wager. I never got a rational answer to why that particular god. Theists have difficulty answering simple questions about their faith but they bank their eternal afterlife on it - you'd think there would be a compelling argument, to convince themselves at least if not others.
Yes, it has been answered. You can’t be bothered to look back through the thread for the answer and you can’t be bothered to learn enough about the faith that you are so eager to denounce to know the answer; or, you are deliberately being obtuse (again/still). That’s because you are not interested in answers. You are interested in agitation, aggravation, and disruption.
The answer is, of course, the resurrection. This is how and why I choose to be a Christian. Since I was not born into the Jewish faith, if not for the resurrection of Christ I would be a free agent, spiritually speaking. Who knows what faith, if any, I might have chosen? I might have joined you in your atheistic faith.
It is easy to win arguments when you simply dismiss evidence that doesn’t fit your narrative, the way you dismiss the eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ resurrection. Those eyewitnesses suffered for their testimony. They were persecuted, and often tortured and killed; and you want us to think that this was just to perpetrate a hoax, a practical joke? What about Jesus’ body? What became of it? You can bet that if it were still around, the Romans and the Pharisees would have gone full-blown Mogadishu with it. They certainly enjoyed mocking Him while He was on the cross, they would have had a field day dispelling the claims that He had returned to life after being killed by them. But they didn’t because He was not there to be found. You seem not to be able to get past the fact that God did all He has done without you being present from the Creation to the Resurrection; or that some of the things God has done don’t meet with your approval. Boo hoo.
All of your criticisms of Christianity mean nothing if you can’t disprove the resurrection. Yes, there have been a lot of bad things done under the guise of Christianity and The Church, and still are. Humans are sinful creatures, all of us. If it were not so, we would have no need of a savior.
Whether the atheists on this thread realize it or not, they have benefitted greatly by living in a world that has been so heavily influenced by Christianity. The world the atheists would have would be a world without morals; after all, we humans are just another form of animal, right? So, why would we not behave as animals; that is, as either predator or prey? And most importantly, it would be a world largely devoid of love where people saw each other as only useful or not useful towards fulfilling their own selfish desires. I expect that much of human progress would not exist, since the United States, which has been the economic engine of the world for a while now, was founded by men who were for the most part believers. You and untold numbers of others have derived great benefit from the social, economic, and judicial norms that a Christianized world has established. We Americans say we are “endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights...” Well, no Creator, no rights. You only are left with the “privileges” that the tyrants you are enslaved by decide you can have.
But take heart, atheists: the world now seems to be seeing things more and more the way you would have it to, according to the link in the OP. How’s that working out? Are things getting more and more tranquil and stable, as an accidental, evolving planet ought to? Or are people acting more and more like the mere animals you claim we are? In the vacuum of a world without God, every man does what is right in his own sight; the strong and aggressive live, and the weak and the passive are killed. I say again that Christianity is not the problem, it is the solution. The world did not get into the fix it is in by being too Christian.
I'm sure the internet intellectuals will have some clever (to them) responses to what's been posted since they last checked; all in the spirit of honest inquiry, doncha know. As WMR said, minds are not likely to be changed; but we can hope that seeds have been planted. If not, well...
The biggest problem our country has is not systemic racism, it's systemic stupidity.
Again, If I had no other source of information than the OT and the gospel of Matthew would I have enough information to achieve salvation? Say I didn't know anything about early Christianity or Paul or Luke or the Acts or anything else? Put me on an island and those writings delivered to me.
Hastings.
Since you don’t believe that Jesus is divine what about him do you trust that makes him your lord?
Again, If I had no other source of information than the OT and the gospel of Matthew would I have enough information to achieve salvation? Say I didn't know anything about early Christianity or Paul or Luke or the Acts or anything else? Put me on an island and those writings delivered to me.
Dude, you can ask what if’s about ‘anything’ in life, but it doesn’t change…at all…what is.
I hope y’all will forgive me for jumping in and out of this thread. I have been AFK for a few days and am again catching up a bit.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
So just pick one and go for it. Why Christianity though? What don't you like about all the others?
You have had this answered several times. You either lack the intelligence to remember what was posted several pages back, or you are being deliberately obtuse by not directly refuting it. Please, no one give him any hints. Let's see if he can, or will, figure it out and address it.
Your purpose is not to inform, because, according to you, there is nothing to be informed about. No, your purpose is to agitate, aggravate, and disrupt.
No, it was ever answered. Just faith in one with justification from a flawed Pascals wager. I never got a rational answer to why that particular god. Theists have difficulty answering simple questions about their faith but they bank their eternal afterlife on it - you'd think there would be a compelling argument, to convince themselves at least if not others.
Yes, it has been answered. You can’t be bothered to look back through the thread for the answer and you can’t be bothered to learn enough about the faith that you are so eager to denounce to know the answer; or, you are deliberately being obtuse (again/still). That’s because you are not interested in answers. You are interested in agitation, aggravation, and disruption.
The answer is, of course, the resurrection. This is how and why I choose to be a Christian. Since I was not born into the Jewish faith, if not for the resurrection of Christ I would be a free agent, spiritually speaking. Who knows what faith, if any, I might have chosen? I might have joined you in your atheistic faith.
It is easy to win arguments when you simply dismiss evidence that doesn’t fit your narrative, the way you dismiss the eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ resurrection. Those eyewitnesses suffered for their testimony. They were persecuted, and often tortured and killed; and you want us to think that this was just to perpetrate a hoax, a practical joke? What about Jesus’ body? What became of it? You can bet that if it were still around, the Romans and the Pharisees would have gone full-blown Mogadishu with it. They certainly enjoyed mocking Him while He was on the cross, they would have had a field day dispelling the claims that He had returned to life after being killed by them. But they didn’t because He was not there to be found. You seem not to be able to get past the fact that God did all He has done without you being present from the Creation to the Resurrection; or that some of the things God has done don’t meet with your approval. Boo hoo.
All of your criticisms of Christianity mean nothing if you can’t disprove the resurrection. Yes, there have been a lot of bad things done under the guise of Christianity and The Church, and still are. Humans are sinful creatures, all of us. If it were not so, we would have no need of a savior.
Whether the atheists on this thread realize it or not, they have benefitted greatly by living in a world that has been so heavily influenced by Christianity. The world the atheists would have would be a world without morals; after all, we humans are just another form of animal, right? So, why would we not behave as animals; that is, as either predator or prey? And most importantly, it would be a world largely devoid of love where people saw each other as only useful or not useful towards fulfilling their own selfish desires. I expect that much of human progress would not exist, since the United States, which has been the economic engine of the world for a while now, was founded by men who were for the most part believers. You and untold numbers of others have derived great benefit from the social, economic, and judicial norms that a Christianized world has established. We Americans say we are “endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights...” Well, no Creator, no rights. You only are left with the “privileges” that the tyrants you are enslaved by decide you can have.
But take heart, atheists: the world now seems to be seeing things more and more the way you would have it to, according to the link in the OP. How’s that working out? Are things getting more and more tranquil and stable, as an accidental, evolving planet ought to? Or are people acting more and more like the mere animals you claim we are? In the vacuum of a world without God, every man does what is right in his own sight; the strong and aggressive live, and the weak and the passive are killed. I say again that Christianity is not the problem, it is the solution. The world did not get into the fix it is in by being too Christian.
Still doesn't answer the question though, people lived and died before the alledged resurrection.
You need to provide evidence of your claims otherwise there is no reason to believe them
We're doing fine, a more secular society does great. Even the USA has a secular government and is constituted to be that way.
We advanced despite the prevalence of religious control. Anything that didn't fit the religious narrative was subject to dire consequences for heresy. Glad we had those bold brave souls that advanced society at personal risk and gave us the medical, agricultural, scientific and technological benefits that we have today. With god out of the equation the truth was able to be discovered.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
Hastings makes a good point that goes unanswered - before Jesus came along was the default condition that people went to hell automatically when they died? Was this an oversight of god, and did he only realise when he was no longer recieving fresh imports into heaven? In fact it would've lasted for centuries AD while canonisation took place.
Another rather untidy loose end in the Christian story I'd say.
More homework for Raspy.
(Sorry Hastings, I took the liberty to expand with my thoughts onto your concerns.)
I've already answered that weeks ago...look it up....
Hastings makes a good point that goes unanswered - before Jesus came along was the default condition that people went to hell automatically when they died? Was this an oversight of god, and did he only realise when he was no longer recieving fresh imports into heaven? In fact it would've lasted for centuries AD while canonisation took place.
Another rather untidy loose end in the Christian story I'd say.
More homework for Raspy.
(Sorry Hastings, I took the liberty to expand with my thoughts onto your concerns.)
I've already answered that weeks ago...look it up....
Can you repost it please, I'm not sure that we've all seen it.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
Hastings makes a good point that goes unanswered - before Jesus came along was the default condition that people went to hell automatically when they died? Was this an oversight of god, and did he only realise when he was no longer recieving fresh imports into heaven? In fact it would've lasted for centuries AD while canonisation took place.
Another rather untidy loose end in the Christian story I'd say.
More homework for Raspy.
(Sorry Hastings, I took the liberty to expand with my thoughts onto your concerns.)
I've already answered that weeks ago...look it up....
Can you repost it please, I'm not sure that we've all seen it.
Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ's resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham's bosom or Abraham's side) and a place of torment where the rich man was.
Before the cross, the spirits of those who died in faith of a coming redeemer, went to a place that came to be known as Paradise. The Jews also called it Abraham’s Bosom. It was located in Sheol, which is Hebrew for “the abode of the dead. ” Its Greek name is Hades.
Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) above....They did not go directly to Heaven because Heaven was only opened to believers after the cross. When Jesus rose from the dead, these spirits were taken to Heaven (Ephesians 4:8).
Hastings makes a good point that goes unanswered - before Jesus came along was the default condition that people went to hell automatically when they died? Was this an oversight of god, and did he only realise when he was no longer recieving fresh imports into heaven? In fact it would've lasted for centuries AD while canonisation took place.
Another rather untidy loose end in the Christian story I'd say.
More homework for Raspy.
(Sorry Hastings, I took the liberty to expand with my thoughts onto your concerns.)
I've already answered that weeks ago...look it up....
Can you repost it please, I'm not sure that we've all seen it.
Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ's resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham's bosom or Abraham's side) and a place of torment where the rich man was.
Before the cross, the spirits of those who died in faith of a coming redeemer, went to a place that came to be known as Paradise. The Jews also called it Abraham’s Bosom. It was located in Sheol, which is Hebrew for “the abode of the dead. ” Its Greek name is Hades.
Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) above....They did not go directly to Heaven because Heaven was only opened to believers after the cross. When Jesus rose from the dead, these spirits were taken to Heaven (Ephesians 4:8).
Sucks being a hard working rich person who died before Luke spilled his guts. Fortunatly there's no reason to believe that any of this is true.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
Hastings makes a good point that goes unanswered - before Jesus came along was the default condition that people went to hell automatically when they died? Was this an oversight of god, and did he only realise when he was no longer recieving fresh imports into heaven? In fact it would've lasted for centuries AD while canonisation took place.
Another rather untidy loose end in the Christian story I'd say.
More homework for Raspy.
(Sorry Hastings, I took the liberty to expand with my thoughts onto your concerns.)
I've already answered that weeks ago...look it up....
Can you repost it please, I'm not sure that we've all seen it.
Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ's resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham's bosom or Abraham's side) and a place of torment where the rich man was.
Before the cross, the spirits of those who died in faith of a coming redeemer, went to a place that came to be known as Paradise. The Jews also called it Abraham’s Bosom. It was located in Sheol, which is Hebrew for “the abode of the dead. ” Its Greek name is Hades.
Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) above....They did not go directly to Heaven because Heaven was only opened to believers after the cross. When Jesus rose from the dead, these spirits were taken to Heaven (Ephesians 4:8).
Sucks being a hard working rich person who died before Luke spilled his guts. Fortunatly there's no reason to believe that any of this is true.
It is called faith, you obviously do not have, but I digress...
You need to understand the context...... Lazarus’ condition is exactly opposite that of the rich man. He is sick—covered with sores. He is hungry—longing for the scraps from the rich man’s table. At banquets, people wipe grease from their hands onto a piece of bread and then throw the bread on the floor. To long for such soiled bread is the height of misery—of degradation. We are reminded of the prodigal son, who longed to eat the slop that he was feeding the pigs.
I see the rich man as being selfish....can you remember being on the outside looking in—needing a bite to eat—or warm shelter—or a tank of gas—or a kind word—and nobody gave you anything? Many of us, like the rich man in this parable, have never had such an experience. However, millions, like Lazarus, daily suffer intense want.
Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ's resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham's bosom or Abraham's side) and a place of torment where the rich man was.
Before the cross, the spirits of those who died in faith of a coming redeemer, went to a place that came to be known as Paradise. The Jews also called it Abraham’s Bosom. It was located in Sheol, which is Hebrew for “the abode of the dead. ” Its Greek name is Hades.
Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) above....They did not go directly to Heaven because Heaven was only opened to believers after the cross. When Jesus rose from the dead, these spirits were taken to Heaven (Ephesians 4:8).
Wasn't story about Lazarus a parable? As in a story to convey a lesson? Not a recounting of a thing that actually occurred? Like the story of the prodigal son?
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
The snippets you pointed out are OT...and NT...but you do not include the context....for example, the one you despise the most....
“Happy is the one who seizes your infants / and dashes them against the rocks.” To “imprecate” means to “pray evil against,” and the imprecatory prayers in the Bible strike people today as strange or wrong. It is important to understand the context of this verse and others like it. The background is the Jewish people calling upon God to exact revenge upon their military enemies.
Context doesn't alter what is said. When the bible tells us that God is responsible for the existence of evil, that is precisely what is meant and intended,
When the bible tells us that God creates evil and the evildoer for the day of evil, that is precisely what is meant and intended.
When the bible tells us that God as the 'Potter' creates vessels 'fitted for destruction,' that is precisely what is meant and intended.
Context does not alter what is written, meant and intended.
Context does not transform what is written, meant and intended into something more palatable for the believer. .
Yes, God created evil. However, it is important to understand that God did not create evil directly, but indirectly. God created angels and men with the potential and capability of committing evil by sinning because it was an important part of God’s Plan for them that they would experience both good and evil. Two beings who represent the pinnacle of evil are Satan and Hitler. One is a fallen angel and the other is a fallen man. God created a holy angel called Lucifer who became Satan when he sinned by rebelling against God. Also, God created Adam and Eve who were holy people before they sinned by eating the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. As a result of their sin, Adam and Eve became sinners and all of their descendants are born with an unrighteous sinful fallen nature. God has complete foreknowledge of everything that happens in His creation. Therefore, the sins of fallen angels and the sins of fallen men do not take Him by surprise
[quote=Raspy]Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ's resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham's bosom or Abraham's side) and a place of torment where the rich man was.
Before the cross, the spirits of those who died in faith of a coming redeemer, went to a place that came to be known as Paradise. The Jews also called it Abraham’s Bosom. It was located in Sheol, which is Hebrew for “the abode of the dead. ” Its Greek name is Hades.
Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) above....They did not go directly to Heaven because Heaven was only opened to believers after the cross. When Jesus rose from the dead, these spirits were taken to Heaven (Ephesians 4:8).
Originally Posted by Hastings
Wasn't story about Lazarus a parable? As in a story to convey a lesson? Not a recounting of a thing that actually occurred? Like the story of the prodigal son?
Some say yes and some say not at all....
The argument is that Jesus always noted when He was using a parable, and because He did not do so in this case, we are to accept it as a historical account.
This argument, however, does not stand up under scrutiny. If we investigate the other gospels, we will see that we are often told by the narrator that what Jesus said was a parable, not by Jesus Himself. That this one is not indicated to be a parable does not mean that it is not one.
