|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,409
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,409 |
Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing. You are correct...... Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth. Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence. Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness. So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible... Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true. What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction. What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge. Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it. So what is the argument? We are stating the same.........you originally said... "Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing." (see above) I did say you are correct...did I not? Since you stated your idea of believing vs knowing.... I stated my three ideas about believing vs knowing...and I'll expand to make crystal clear... 1st meaning.... Believing means that you have chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... I cannot prove it...and I have FAITH that it is the TRUTH... ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.....and I am certain. 2nd meaning... Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence....another idea, simple as can be. 3rd meaning... Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness....the last idea....seems simple too. Please don't try to muddy the waters... Leave out conviction vs choice, as we already discussed that a few months ago....
Illegitimi non carborundum
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,501 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,501 Likes: 1 |
It's already started with some churches allowing sexual sin and abortion. Should churches cherry-pick which type of sin they’ll allow, given the fact that every single church goer is a sinner, as well as every single pastor and deacon and elder, etc….? Honest question man. Would Jesus Himself give the cold shoulder to those folks…? Perhaps you are extrapolating your life onto the general church. I, like Apostle Paul, am not aware of sin in my life. Over the years I have repented when someone loved me enough to confront me from God's Word, the Bible. Some of us are not practicing sinners. First John teaches those who practice sin are of the devil. I don't. And based on your posts I don't perceive you are either. I get from Paul’s writings that…even though he is a follower of Jesus…he is still pretty honest, deeply so, about his ongoing struggle with sin. And I can relate.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,135 Likes: 8
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,135 Likes: 8 |
I will say this... man is corrupted, from Adam and Eve, to Moses and David. The bible is written by men, it is corrupted. It's the account of man reaching to God with all the good and bad. God reached back to man with Christ, who didn't leave one personal written word. Then written words are continued again after the resurrection, man was reaching back to God. No matter how well meaning and sincere any man is in his attempt to 'speak' for God, they will always be interpreting it through the human deficiency. To say such a thing is a slap in that face of a sovereign God who is in fact very much control of all things, most of all His word in the form of the Bible. This book is the direct & true word of God for our direction and instruction. If this is not true, then that would put every word into question and would be in it's whole, a lie. God caused man to write it and He has more than enough power to preserve His word in truth for all time. The Bible as a living Word of God, came by divine inspiration, as attested to by Apostle Peter as he writes, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:20-12). The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion. The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,870
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,870 |
I will say this... man is corrupted, from Adam and Eve, to Moses and David. The bible is written by men, it is corrupted. It's the account of man reaching to God with all the good and bad. God reached back to man with Christ, who didn't leave one personal written word. Then written words are continued again after the resurrection, man was reaching back to God. No matter how well meaning and sincere any man is in his attempt to 'speak' for God, they will always be interpreting it through the human deficiency. To say such a thing is a slap in that face of a sovereign God who is in fact very much control of all things, most of all His word in the form of the Bible. This book is the direct & true word of God for our direction and instruction. If this is not true, then that would put every word into question and would be in it's whole, a lie. God caused man to write it and He has more than enough power to preserve His word in truth for all time. The Bible as a living Word of God, came by divine inspiration, as attested to by Apostle Peter as he writes, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:20-12). The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion. The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be. Christians don't need to make the God of the Bible "appear bad". God does that all by Himself. Consider the Flood. Puppies and kittens and beautiful young virgins suffered His wrath. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock. God even claims He killed His Own Son for the atonement of sin. And God is vengeful and will send all who reject His Son to an eternal punishment.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,135 Likes: 8
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,135 Likes: 8 |
The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion.
The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be. Christians don't need to make the God of the Bible "appear bad". God does that all by Himself. Consider the Flood. Puppies and kittens and beautiful young virgins suffered His wrath. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock. God even claims He killed His Own Son for the atonement of sin. And God is vengeful and will send all who reject His Son to an eternal punishment. I wonder what happens to all those billions of souls scattered all over the earth that never got to read about Jesus, never heard of him, and sure never saw him. They didn't know about God's son and didn't have the opportunity to accept or reject him. That is a problem.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 13,256 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 13,256 Likes: 2 |
Yeah, I have asked that same question before and never gotten an answer.
The Mormons try to solve that problem through their baptism for the dead. But I don't know how they handle the folks with no written record of their existence.
The Jews didn't take to kindly to the Mormons baptizing their dead ancestors.
Let's Go Brandon! FJB
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,804 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,804 Likes: 2 |
Prove it - that he/she/it exists, and then that he/she/it is infinite. Prove otherwise ....... You cannot. The onus is on the one making the claim. How did you disprove all the other gods?
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,804 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,804 Likes: 2 |
God is Infinite. Therefore cannot be invented. I could easily invent a god to the same level of proof as yours, and that is a fu ck-ton better than any other god out there. That implies that yours would be different. If yours was different, then reality would have to change. How would yours be different? Mine would match reality.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,422 Likes: 13
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,422 Likes: 13 |
It's already started with some churches allowing sexual sin and abortion. Should churches cherry-pick which type of sin they’ll allow, given the fact that every single church goer is a sinner, as well as every single pastor and deacon and elder, etc….? Honest question man. Would Jesus Himself give the cold shoulder to those folks…? Allowing sin in the church and asking sinners to repent are at opposite ends of the scale. Everyone sins but the believers are expected to repent and ask for forgiveness. If they won't do it and continue in their sin, then it's time for the church to step in. In worst cases, the person should be ejected. That's Biblical. Now we have churches allowing homosexual marriages and all other kinds of perversion. Christ did love everyone, but those who reject his teaching in that manner are cooked.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,870
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,870 |
The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion.
The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be. Christians don't need to make the God of the Bible "appear bad". God does that all by Himself. Consider the Flood. Puppies and kittens and beautiful young virgins suffered His wrath. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock. God even claims He killed His Own Son for the atonement of sin. And God is vengeful and will send all who reject His Son to an eternal punishment. I wonder what happens to all those billions of souls scattered all over the earth that never got to read about Jesus, never heard of him, and sure never saw him. They didn't know about God's son and didn't have the opportunity to accept or reject him. That is a problem. That's a problem for you, but not for God. God says He will send His angels in "fire dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus."
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,659 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,659 Likes: 1 |
Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing. You are correct...... Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth. Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence. Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness. So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible... Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true. What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction. What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge. Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it. So what is the argument? We are stating the same.........you originally said... "Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing." (see above) I did say you are correct...did I not? Since you stated your idea of believing vs knowing.... I stated my three ideas about believing vs knowing...and I'll expand to make crystal clear... 1st meaning.... Believing means that you have chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... I cannot prove it...and I have FAITH that it is the TRUTH... ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.....and I am certain. 2nd meaning... Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence....another idea, simple as can be. 3rd meaning... Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness....the last idea....seems simple too. Please don't try to muddy the waters... Leave out conviction vs choice, as we already discussed that a few months ago.... 'Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual. As that is not necessarily the case, you could be wrong, the distinction lies between faith, believing that what you have is true and factual, and what is actually true and factual regardless of what people believe. And again, we don't choose to be convinced. The process of conviction is more complex than 'choice.'
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,135 Likes: 8
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,135 Likes: 8 |
The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion.
The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be. Christians don't need to make the God of the Bible "appear bad". God does that all by Himself. Consider the Flood. Puppies and kittens and beautiful young virgins suffered His wrath. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock. God even claims He killed His Own Son for the atonement of sin. And God is vengeful and will send all who reject His Son to an eternal punishment. I wonder what happens to all those billions of souls scattered all over the earth that never got to read about Jesus, never heard of him, and sure never saw him. They didn't know about God's son and didn't have the opportunity to accept or reject him. That is a problem. That's a problem for you, but not for God. God says He will send His angels in "fire dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus." Well OK, but what about those billions? Is there reincarnation? God cannot be unjust.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 61,039 Likes: 18
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 61,039 Likes: 18 |
Hastings, Your mule reminds me, on a field trip, a child says, that must be a Chrisian mule, he looks so sad. 
These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
"May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,135 Likes: 8
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,135 Likes: 8 |
Hastings, Your mule reminds me, on a field trip, a child says, that must be a Chrisian mule, he looks so sad. I like jackasses. They have a lot good traits.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,870
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,870 |
The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion.
The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be. Christians don't need to make the God of the Bible "appear bad". God does that all by Himself. Consider the Flood. Puppies and kittens and beautiful young virgins suffered His wrath. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock. God even claims He killed His Own Son for the atonement of sin. And God is vengeful and will send all who reject His Son to an eternal punishment. I wonder what happens to all those billions of souls scattered all over the earth that never got to read about Jesus, never heard of him, and sure never saw him. They didn't know about God's son and didn't have the opportunity to accept or reject him. That is a problem. That's a problem for you, but not for God. God says He will send His angels in "fire dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus." Well OK, but what about those billions? Is there reincarnation? God cannot be unjust. That verse answers your question. God's Word tells us the physical comes first, then the spirit. That leaves no room for reincarnation. God appears to be unjust to me. But God is Infinite and I'm a finite being begging my position. I don't know God. He knows me. My constant hope is in John 6:68.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,409
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,409 |
Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing. You are correct...... Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth. Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence. Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness. So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible... Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true. What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction. What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge. Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it. So what is the argument? We are stating the same.........you originally said... "Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing." (see above) I did say you are correct...did I not? Since you stated your idea of believing vs knowing.... I stated my three ideas about believing vs knowing...and I'll expand to make crystal clear... 1st meaning.... Believing means that you have chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... I cannot prove it...and I have FAITH that it is the TRUTH... ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.....and I am certain. 2nd meaning... Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence....another idea, simple as can be. 3rd meaning... Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness....the last idea....seems simple too. Please don't try to muddy the waters... Leave out conviction vs choice, as we already discussed that a few months ago.... 'Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual. As that is not necessarily the case, you could be wrong, the distinction lies between faith, believing that what you have is true and factual, and what is actually true and factual regardless of what people believe. And again, we don't choose to be convinced. The process of conviction is more complex than 'choice.' "Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual". No, I realize, not factual to you or other atheist.....JUST ME and a lot of Christians.
Illegitimi non carborundum
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,501 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,501 Likes: 1 |
Rock_Chuck, I appreciated your last post in response to my question.
To me, serving people that they may not see eye to eye with is pretty fundamentally essential to Christianity. Jesus died for a world with which he clearly didn't see eye to eye with.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,659 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,659 Likes: 1 |
Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing. You are correct...... Believing means that you have chosen a truth, but ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth. Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence. Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness. So, I know that I believe in the God of the Bible... Chosen a truth? Something should be proven to be true....in which case there is no need to 'choose the truth' because it has been clearly shown to be true. What you mean is choose a faith, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc....even then it's not a matter of choice, but conviction. What you call 'knowing' is faith, not factual knowledge. Nor is conviction the same as choice. they are two different things. You don't choose to be convinced, you are either convinced by whatever is being presented, or you are not....there may be a variety of reasons for a conviction, or lack of it. So what is the argument? We are stating the same.........you originally said... "Some folks believe that they know. Which is not the same as knowing." (see above) I did say you are correct...did I not? Since you stated your idea of believing vs knowing.... I stated my three ideas about believing vs knowing...and I'll expand to make crystal clear... 1st meaning.... Believing means that you have chosen a truth...to me that is the TRUTH... I cannot prove it...and I have FAITH that it is the TRUTH... ‘knowing’ means that you are certain about that truth.....and I am certain. 2nd meaning... Believing always leaves room for doubt, but ‘knowing’ leads to confidence....another idea, simple as can be. 3rd meaning... Believing is blind trust, while ‘knowing’ is trusting with awareness....the last idea....seems simple too. Please don't try to muddy the waters... Leave out conviction vs choice, as we already discussed that a few months ago.... 'Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual. As that is not necessarily the case, you could be wrong, the distinction lies between faith, believing that what you have is true and factual, and what is actually true and factual regardless of what people believe. And again, we don't choose to be convinced. The process of conviction is more complex than 'choice.' "Chosen' a truth implies that what you have 'chosen' is in fact true and factual". No, I realize, not factual to you or other atheist.....JUST ME and a lot of Christians. Something that is true and factual, by definition, is true and factual regardless of what you, or I, or anyone believes or disbelieves. Nobody can choose something to be objectively true or false. Does 'Allah' exist because millions of Muslims 'choose' to believe in the existence of Allah?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 61,039 Likes: 18
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 61,039 Likes: 18 |
These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
"May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,575 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,575 Likes: 5 |
The Mormons and Moslems make this same claim about their books and by the way both of them accept Jesus. And just as did the "Christian" religion and the Hebrew religion they have all massacred people in the pursuance of their religion.
The biggest problem I see with most religion is how bad they make God appear to be. Christians don't need to make the God of the Bible "appear bad". God does that all by Himself. Consider the Flood. Puppies and kittens and beautiful young virgins suffered His wrath. God ordered Joshua to kill men, women, children, and their livestock. God even claims He killed His Own Son for the atonement of sin. And God is vengeful and will send all who reject His Son to an eternal punishment. I wonder what happens to all those billions of souls scattered all over the earth that never got to read about Jesus, never heard of him, and sure never saw him. They didn't know about God's son and didn't have the opportunity to accept or reject him. That is a problem. That's a problem for you, but not for God. God says He will send His angels in "fire dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus." Well OK, but what about those billions? Is there reincarnation? God cannot be unjust.It's a reasonable question - what about them - but the distinct reality is that humans do not know all that God knows. But, to ask makes sense. Then again, for a human to try to declare what God can or cannot be - makes absolutely no sense.
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
|
|
|
|
|
543 members (12344mag, 007FJ, 10gaugemag, 160user, 1badf350, 1936M71, 55 invisible),
2,339
guests, and
1,239
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,043
Posts18,500,820
Members73,987
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/MxuzdW7.jpg)
