Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Mausers and Military Rifles Help me spot a Jungle Carbine Fake

I am looking at a No 5 Mark I Jungle Carbine but it only bears a makers mark of (F) and not the ROF(F). Is that a sure sign of a fake? All else looks legit. My photo is too big so I have it on a link. Hope it works. [img]https://imgur.com/a/nYPWE1b[/img]

Does it have the 800yd rear sight? Does it have the figure 8 (behind the front screw) trigger guard? Does it have the fluted chamber (must remove handguard)? Does it have the lug on the outside of the right side of the receiver (a No4 trait removed on No5's)? If the barrel is any wider than 0.635 directly behind the flash hider mounting then it's a cut down No4 barrel with a Numrich flash hider on it. Barrel should be completely free floated foward of the knox (chamber). Rubber butt pad mounted in steel. Hollowed out bolt handle. The (F) stands for Fazakerly which is correct one of only 2 No5 manufacturers BSA being the other.

So it has both cutouts on each side of the receiver below the site and hollowed out bolt handle. I’m checking on the rest of them before I buy it. Is it easy to remove the hand guard?

at 12 minutes in, he describes fakes

The picture and the two features verified tell me it is ok. The hand guard is easy to remove and you get a warm an fuzzie when you see the cuts. But you dont need to.

There is not a big problem with fake No5. The problem was a lot of guns modified by the importer (such as Navy Arms) to jungle carbine dimensions. The modified guns were not faked or counterfeit. The marking were not scrubbed or changed. The receiver was not machined down. You have seen enough and shown enough.

I believe the marking (F) is ok, but; not going to pretend expert. I would not scare me off.

You did not ask, so FWIW, I only shoot handloads. I fire form and neck size. I keep power levels reasonable for best comfort and accuracy. That is a whole separate discussion. Dont let me scare you off on a great little gun.

I forgot, one key place to check on any Lee Enfield is to make sure the bolt number matches the gun. If they dont match you really either need to be highly qualified or you should walk away. If you dont know already what I am talking about then walk away. That is another separate discussion and in this case, I do mean to scare you. You do not swap LE bolts as one might with a Mauser. Not even close.

When I was 12 years old in 1963, I was in Bill and Ard's sporting goods store.

I heard Ardell say, "A jungle carbine brings a $15 premium."

Yes you only have to loosen the barrel band screw and slide it foward however it's not something most sellers are willing to let you do.


Swapping bolts on any No4 No5 action is a job for those experienced in the process. There are a number of steps many of which involve machinists blue and patient stoning of the bolt lugs. I have done it before and while laborious is rewarding in the end. Problem here is most importers slap in a bolt and ship them out. So yes I agree if the bolt doesn't match and you're looking for a shooter move on.
Headspace is also critical on the No4 No5 actions and proper fitment of a replacement bolt in one of these receivers will render wider headspace. Headspace is addressed by replacement of the bolt head, you change them until you achieve good headspace. This works great in a Royal Armory shop but is fairly impractical for the average do it yourselfer. Even if all the numbers match have it checked for headspace BEFORE shooting it. Like all British machinery an Enfield is a highly tuned and pesky beast and if any aspect of it has been messed with it affect the accuracy greatly.
If you do buy it and bring it home to clean it DO NOT remove the forend. A whole can of worms there with the draws easily damaging if you don't do it correctly. Read up and learn about it before doing anything more than removing the bolt to clean the bore.

Well Gentlemen, likely great advice, this Thread! But for the likes of me, bout half century late! I'd ask where you were with such advice in the seventies. But more likely just happy gleam in the eyes of prosoective loving parents! In those seventies, for me quite frankly, SMLE #4 & 5 sporters; most as truck gun end of the "shooter" market! Not trying to 'Dis' the genre, but factual truth! The seventies plus market bottom falling out of home brew missurp sporters and SMLEs were often the anchors.

Many in really decent condition. But for era typical mismatched bolts as SOP! I carried several common "Field" headspace gauges on gun show excursions. None .303 Brit. Those rifles frankly, a great econo-consolotation prize lest slinking from a gun show empty-handed! I appreciated the 4 & 5 rifles for what they were as unique, nifty engineering exercises and good shooters!

The sixties era, big Importers often with No. 4 rifles mildly sporterized "for only a few dollars more" than original. The No. 5 early sixties, maybe some clicks more, but typically still chasing the big three, mausers, Springfield 03 and 17 Enfields. The wider SMLE genre didn't compete well and where thos big three with many destined as sporters. Hardly to expect a superior fate for SMLE "Shooters". Member Fourbore in his Post #...036 above, hit a #5 genre point squarely on the head as milking that market.

I'll need to do some reviewing & calculating. But myself 'holding' perhaps near half dozen #4 & 5. Such Bubba mis-match bolt sporters, decades with me sheltering; as now "suspect". Probably on average '$40 something' per gun invested! The humor here of course, yet as "truth". Moreover, no desire for unsafe guns in the wind for 'pieces of silver'! Easiest to tag & XL spreadsheet annotate "Non-shooter" and to join some other decent 'unsafe at any speed' pieces! Yet the glass half full as some nice 'original No 4 & 5 military configs. And the one dumb way-overpayment but 'it' s scoped as 'other' species.

Final, wider thought. I'm a great fan of 'aft-locking' bolt actions. The sheer quality of the Schultz & Larsen rifles of those fifties & sixites. The tack driver sixties-severties era econo-sporter the Remington 788, as intended audience amazed. The interwar Savage Models 40 & 45 as 'also rans' due to quality/longevity issues. Nuff said!

Any further thoughts here?

Just my take
Best!
John

I purchased my first rifle in 1978 the week of my 18th birthday and my second rifle and first Enfield in 1979. That full half century ago I was 12 and still around a year from firing a firearm for the first time.

Some of those cheapie Enfields may be safe to shoot but there is a series of checks that must be done to insure that is so and mandatory for any mismatched Enfield. The position the bolthead takes when the bolt is removed and the head is tightend all the way it's known as "clocking over". It should be in line or within 15° of the long lug it lines up with. The contact pattern of the bolt lugs to the reliefs in the receiver. Cocking piece position, firing pin protrusion and of course the big one headspace. Even if a particular rifle passes muster with a mismatched bolt another problem particular to Enfields is "cord wear". The cleaning pull-thru cords for Enfields used in WWII were particularly abrasive and if not used correctly would wear the side of the chamber. When this is encountered one side of a fired round will bulge slightly where the wear occurred. If not overly extreme the rifle may still be safe to fire but will trash the brass making them throw aways and useless for reloading. All this is still just a microcosm of the potential problems one can encounter with an Enfield. Like I've said previously they are highly tuned and unlike any other service rifle fielded by any other country. "Typically British"

No, that isn't cord wear. Cord wear isn't confined to "Enfields", nor even to British rifles. It can be found in any service rifle cleaned with a pullthrough. It isn't because the cord itself is abrasive, but because the cord can be contaminated with abrasive material - usually as a result of being dropped in the dirt. That, combined with not pulling it straight, but rather letting it rub against the muzzle, can cause cord wear, which is to say wear of the muzzle end of the bore (not the chamber). Armourers check for this with a gauge inserted at the muzzle. You could use a bullet as a field expedient to check for it.

What causes bulging in your brass in a Lee Enfield is typically the fact that they had chambers cut on the generous side. IN wartime production this was especially generous. The thinking was that the ammunition had to chamber, even if dinged or dirty. Because headspacing is controlled by the rim an oversize chamber wouldn't matter, at least for service use where brass wasn't reloaded. What happens with an oversize chamber is that the round sits against the side, held there by the extractor, so there's clearance on the other side. When the round's fired the case expands into that clearance, causing it to bulge on that side.

If you want to keep your brass for reloading, the trick is to put a thin strip of tape, or an o-ring, around the case just in front of the rim before you first fire it. The idea is that this holds the case concentric in the chamber, and hard back against the boltface. You may need to experiment with how much tape or how thick an o-ring to get a nice snug fit. That way, when you fire it, the expansion is concentric, and you also avoid problems with case stretching causing incipient separation. If from that point on you only neck-size your brass, not pushing the shoulder back, it will remain properly fireformed and, with regular neck annealing, case life will be good.

One of the production engineering advances on the No 4 (carried forward into the No 5) was in fact that bolts did not have to be hand fitted. This was in sharp distinction to most other actions, including Mausers. This was achieved by the use of bolt heads made in incremental sizes. The idea was that you could have the action assembled and headspaced by a semi-skilled worker rather than a fitter, by simply taking a bolt from a box of them, and running it into the barrelled receiver with different lengths of boltheads from another box, until the rifle met the headspace standard (measured using go-no gauges).

That is not to say that you should not check as to whether you have a matching bolt. It does affect value, and if the bolt is non-matching it may well not meet headspace specification and you may need to change the bolt head to bring it into spec.

I VERY STRONGLY recommend you read Peter Laidler's book before you give such INCORRECT and DANGEROUS advice.

Peter is a retired Chief Armorer for the British Army and has written a series of books on maintaining and adjusting the Enfield No4 and No5 rifles. In his book he explains why an Enfield No4 or No5 with a mismatched non properly fitted bolt is as dangerous as a hand granade.

If this wasn't such a crappy primitive format I would be able to post the very section of his book where he outlines fitting a new replacement or used bolt to a rifle however this format continues to reject my photos and web adresses.

Never in the history of man has there EVER been a "drop in" bolt for any firearm especially ones as finicky as the No4 and No5. There is an entire order of procedures and gagues that are used in the process.

It would be easiest for you to go to milsurps.com open the Lee Enfield section and look up the Peter Laidler book section and find Fitting Bolts. It's available to all for free just join the site.

Well, oldfoneguy... No wonder, no "Russian Capture" totally mismatched SMLE rifles! The were all "self-fragging!"

But trying to be serious for a moment (It's hard); from a quick perview of Peter's referenced articles, below reference the closest perhaps "on point" to be noted. A highly tech presentation, yet it appeared to me just the ordinary headspace situation if some kinks and curves peculiar to the genre rifles!

Classic headspace instruction re mauser pattern, I've noted - and ignored - such as bolt stripping instructions typically inclusive of the big CRF claw extractor removal prior to performing the headspace check. Always worked for me without that last step. The point, that sometimes 'technically' and 'real world' do differ. Doing a headspace check doesn't always have to be like coreographing a ballet!

Here's Peter's perhaps article on point but without "dire consequences" warning I could note:
http://photos.imageevent.com/badger...forums/Cartridge%20Headspace%20_CHS_.pdf

If this doesn't address the "grenade" potential situation perhaps you could provide Web reference.
The SMLEs are interesting & nifty guns!

Best!
John

John I don't believe Peter adresses the dangers in his book it's more of a how-to tutorial than any type of discussion. I believe that came about on the forum when I brought up the small lug shearing off the mismatched bolt of my 1941 Maltby No4. I had no idea of the danger involved by using it unchecked. Some are worse than others and for mine all the pressure was exibited on that small lug. Fortunately the bolt jammed and that was the end of my shooting day. If I had freeded it and put out another round the bolt would have ended up in my head. Peter and some of the other Enfield experts there gave me a good education on the workings of the Enfields. I probably know more than most about the No4 and No5 now. I even did a new replacement bolt on that Maltby. There's a write up on the replacement in the gunsmithing section on milsurps.

Like I said, Greg, if the bolt matches you can buy the gun.

This other 'stuff' is a never ending debate. NEVER ENDING. Rat holed many a discussion on other forums. Nothing to get all weird and scared about. DONT READ ANY MORE. Buy the gun and then start a new discussion on shooting it, reloading etc. Trust me - Piece of cake.

Fourbore is right if it's matching of course.

I bought my No5 in March 1979 and got a good 38 years out of it without knowing anything I know now. Truth be told I've shot the crap out of that rifle with blind innocence. Must have at least 7, 000 rounds through it. Was my 2nd ever rifle and my main hunting rifle into the mid 2010's. I finally put it away after it started bulging brass rendering it non-reloadable. Use to shoot it accurately at a 55 gallon drum at 468 yards measured by a range finder.

All matching 3/45 Fazakerly that I added a no drill scope mount and a high comb pistol grip Fajen butt stock to. It's still in the safe and I'll never sell it. I've returned it to original configuration and take it out once a year for memories sake and to condem my worn out brass.