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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
If you're sitting where I am the biggest Schmidt and Bender won't do you any good an hour past sunset.

What kind of hunting environment?
The one where it’s illegal an hour past sunset, I’m guessing.

Although in many places it is legal to hunt predators or hogs after dark on private property.

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Somewhat narrow pipeline right of way, tall pines with undergrowth on both sides, sun setting behind the trees, not in line with the right of way.


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We can hunt hogs any time, but where I am right now a 56mm won't matter in about twenty minutes.


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In the interest of honestly and full disclosure I sat on stand for some extra time. Depending on which part of the right of way you were concerned with the bigger, top quality scopes would have tacked on another ten minutes or so.

That said, a hour after sunset, no way no how.


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
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Originally Posted by mathman
In the interest of honestly and full disclosure I sat on stand for some extra time. Depending on which part of the right of way you were concerned with the bigger, top quality scopes would have tacked on another ten minutes or so.

That said, a hour after sunset, no way no how.

Some moonlight can change that game with the right scope.

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Originally Posted by DrDeath
So let’s look at the Trijicon 2-10x56mm. If I’m using only the 2 power divide 56 by 2? 28mm exit pupil?

Yep.


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I understand completely what Mathman is saying. I spent several sunsets the past week or so hunting an open strip of thinned pines. It’s 30ish feet wide or so, and I was facing north. Legal shooting light ends 30 minutes after sunset. It starts to get sketchy at 10-15 minutes after sunset. At 15ish minutes after sunset, assuming clear skies, the Tract 10x42 binos can go in the pack as the image is no longer bright enough to make any assessment of deer beyond general body size. From there I was using my rifle scope, an SHV 3-10x42 this week, until end of light. I adjust magnification until image appears brightest, which I assume is at highest magnification that my pupil can utilize what the scope can give. With the SHV, that would give anther 8-10 minutes that I could usually make an assessment of a deer at 120 yards or so. I could hold on one and shoot (essentially a silhouette) until legal time expired, but it would have had to be there 5-10 minutes prior to evaluate it. I have used a Tract Toric 50mm scope on the same stand. It gave me maybe 3 or 4 minutes more time that I could assess buck/doe/good buck/etc… At 15 minutes beyond legal shooting time, I don’t think a lens exists, at least I’d be willing to carry, would make a meaningful difference.

Now, when I walk out, I walk across an open area that is at less 50 yards x 50 yards. There, and in fields, it is a completely different scenario than the open lane in the pines.


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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
In the interest of honestly and full disclosure I sat on stand for some extra time. Depending on which part of the right of way you were concerned with the bigger, top quality scopes would have tacked on another ten minutes or so.

That said, a hour after sunset, no way no how.

Some moonlight can change that game with the right scope.

When I still had some Vari-X IIIs in the lineup, the 2.5-8x40mm was surprisingly useable under a full moon. The VX-3i that replaced it was noticeably brighter in daylight, but I never did check that one out in full moon conditions...the need and opportunity just never came up. All those Leupolds went bye-bye, but not on account of the glass quality.


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Originally Posted by mathman
If you don't mind the size of the scope you can get 10x in a 5.6mm exit pupil. Magnification can make things appear brighter too.

I simply don't favor big old scopes on top of the rifles for my particular hunting purposes.

I like a 6x42 scope or a modest size variable which adjusts to that combination.

My deer rifles typically wear 3-9x40s, 2-7s, or something like the 1-6x24 on my Grendel. The big Triji was purchased in hopes of turning it on low-light yotes and such. I will say that the 300 yard range near me has some shadows at times and something like a 4.5-14x42 struggles at the top end in that light. Last time I had the 2.5-10x56 out there, I had no trouble seeing into those shadows. It’s lit too, and the center crosshairs are pretty fine. Hope to get it out in the dark and hopefully some snow once night shooting gets legal here in January. It doesn’t look too big on that Mini to my eye, but I’ll try and get a pic posted and see what the other kids think…..


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Exit pupil is extremely over rated. I compared a Minox 13X56mm (two "scopes") with a 50mm rifle scope set on 13X in a low light situation. The rifle scope lasted two minutes longer.


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One thing to mention--and I could be wrong...but isn't an exit pupil greater then 5mm to 7 mm generally useless, owing to the limitation of the eye's pupil dilation?


Originally Posted by gonehuntin
Give a communist a helicopter ride, he flies for an afternoon. Throw a communist out of a helicopter and he flies for the rest of his life.....



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Originally Posted by RiverRider
One thing to mention--and I could be wrong...but isn't an exit pupil greater then 5mm to 7 mm generally useless, owing to the limitation of the eye's pupil dilation?

And then only when your eyes are fully dark adapted.

In bright daylight your pupil will be much much smaller.

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Originally Posted by mathman
We can hunt hogs any time, but where I am right now a 56mm won't matter in about twenty minutes.

But if you set up a green laser to partially illuminate an area...

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Hog was shot 45 minutes after sunset in thinned pines—40mm Leupold Mark 4 on 6x. Binoculars were 7x42 Dialyts.

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May I suggest

a kill light

or

a night vision optic

or

a thermal optic.


Amazing what those optics do for dark-thirty and beyond hunting

ya!


GWB

Last edited by geedubya; 11/20/22.

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Here, and in most places I’ve hunted in the East, legal hours for deer begin and end 30 minutes either side of dawn and dusk. Most scopes will get it done in the open, but in the timber it gets dicey even well inside the legal limits. Lights, NV, thermal, etc are generally not legal options, again for deer and other game. Yotes and other varmints are different, although in WV, bobcats can't be taken under the lights like yotes, foxes, and the other minor predators, for reasons they don't explain.

No piggies here just yet, but they're comin’! Get closer every year, courtesy of misguided transplant efforts by dumbazzes. Not sure I’ll still be in the game by the time they do, but it’ll be interesting to see how the DNR handles the opportunities.


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I'm 45 and my Leupold LPVO at 24mm objective gives a big FOV and good low light capability. How is this explained with the exit pupil equation?


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I quit hunting big game years ago and concentrate on hunting coyotes mainly and other predators when presented. I shoot a number of 1-4x20s and 1.5-6x40s and if I can see them coming with my bare eyes I can kill them with my scope. I have no restrictions on shooting hours other than no lights here.

I'm 75 11/12 yrs old have had double cataract surgery done 20 yrs ago. I do keep up with prescriptions for corrective lenses for my glasses and see and eye doctor every two years. If you find you need bigger scopes to see game I would suggest a trip to a regular eye doctor, not the lens fitter at Walmart. I eye problems can sneak up on you, I had no idea I had a problem until I started having problems with car lights at night looking like big stars. After the surgery I couldn't believe all that I wasn't seeing even the winter trees had tiny branches I never knew were there.


After the first shot the rest are just noise.

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Originally Posted by Gargoyle
I'm 45 and my Leupold LPVO at 24mm objective gives a big FOV and good low light capability. How is this explained with the exit pupil equation?

All eyes process things differently.
The equation does not change. Coatings and all the trimmings that go along with higher quality lens does change things.

I have been using straight tubed 24mm objective scopes for many years. I used popular USA made straight tubed 20mm objectives prior. The first time that I looked through an upper end 24mm, I was hooked.

My European 24mm objectives are pretty dang good. But, the 42mm objectives of equal quality still have some advantage for me. As would the 50mm over the 42mm. Though, I don't think quite as obvious as the 42 vs the 24.

A few years ago, I got a pretty good buy on a Leupold VX-5HD 1-5x24mm. To my eye, this scope gives a very good lower light view for a 24mm objective. I will say the same for the Tract Toric 1-8x24mm.

As others have stated "low light" conditions vary. The time past sunset is not the single qualifying benchmark.
Significant low light difference in open tundra, fields, meadows than in the timber and valleys with timber. And of course the atmospheric conditions can make it worse.

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I have a Swarovski 6x42 that is very bright and very clear, but it doesn't have what qualifies for me as a low light reticle. If it had the same heavy duplex that my VX-III 1.75-6x32 had it would be super as the light fades.


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
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