Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Why No Love For The S&W .40?

Forty is just not a cool name.

Just an optical illusion.

"10mm Short & Weak" just wouldn't have flown.

I can't believe how much back and forth exists among self-proclaimed gun nuts when it comes to chamberings.

The evolution of the .40 S&W is very well documented and far from ancient history. The infamous Miami Shootout lead America's premiere law enforcement agency to pursue the optimal law enforcement cartridge. A lot of people recognize that, that pursuit ended with the 10mm. But they fail to recognize that, that pursuit was lead by the recognized "experts" in handgunning at the time and were furthered by people that fully accepted those "experts" were the be-all, end-all, in pistolering. Hindsight being 20/20 (if you're inclined to look at these things objectively) will quickly reveal none of those people were experts in anything. Except themselves.

The 10mm that was propositioned to be the cure-all for all things law enforcement was not a new concept. The same ballistics and performance were achievable via the 38-40 for a long, long, time. But some loud mouth know-it-all's found a way to get it into a rimless case and a gun that was (until being adopted by the FBI) viewed as a ginormous piece of fugking schit. Because it was.

But this pursuit of ballistic nirvana was seized by a number of salesmen. Not the least of which were the disciples of a guy named Jeff "Scout Rifle" Cooper. They convinced the FBI that bigger was better and the FBI took this info hook, line, and sinker. Development of a pistol that wasn't a complete piece of fugking schit became a priority for the FBI and that meant it was a priority for the premiere firearm's manufacturer (for LEOs) in the country. The result was a massive framed pistol that could handle the true ballistics of the 10mm. Please note the italicized text. It was made to handle the true ballistics of the 10mm, at that time.

It doesn't take somebody as genius as Jeff Cooper and his disciples to figure out that there is no way in fugking Christ a bunch of FBI agents were going to be able to wield this cartridge/handgun combo effectively. Matter of fact, you'd need to do some very creative comic book writing to find a pack of mother fugkers that could wield that combo effectively. It was a stupid idea then, and it would be a stupid idea today. But what did that stupid idea bring the LEO community to?

You guessed it. A slightly less stupid idea. Because egos and lack of data weren't going to make a buncha know-nothings announce to the world that their idea was fugking stupid.

Enter the .40 S&W....

Now consider what the .40 S&W truly is. It's the solution proposed by cultists, gun manufacturers and ammo manufacturers to collaborate on an idea that they had already sold but watched fail. The solution was to take the buck & snort of the 10mm, out of the 10mm, and squeeze into a pistol frame that was never designed to handle the buck & snort of a watered down 10mm. Great idea, right?

Wrong.

But the biggest factor in all of these happenings really needs to be viewed through the window of pre-internet. This was a time when anybody anywhere could claim expertise in all sorts of fields and be taken seriously. Nobody was out there to call them on their bullschit. This was the era of Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayboob, and Frank Dux. Nobody really knew better and those that did had no voice to debate absurd concepts. I mean after all, Guns & Ammo only had so many openings and they sure as fugk weren't going to give them to anyone that said the accepted form of gun Bibles were full of fugking schit.

But the brakes were ultimately pumped on this steady stream of bullschit and this was largely (OK, completely) due to the wide stream use of the internet. So much information was being pumped into the real world that it made the real world take a step back and question a lot of previously accepted nonsense. Not to mention the United States had (kinda still is) been at war since 2001. When in the history of man have you seen this quantity of certified and stamped combat vets coming back and being able to disseminate their real world experiences in the capacity that they can today? The answer is never.

All of this lead to the questioning of a lot of things. Some really good questions like:

-How fast can you accurately shoot a 9mm, versus a .40?
-Why do you think less ammo is an advantage?
-Who has compiled real world information regarding terminal effect of respective chamberings?
-Why are we using light for caliber in the 9mm, and heavy for caliber in the .40?
-Why are we using light for caliber in the 9mm, and heavy for caliber in the .45?
-What is the service life (this means reliability for all you that don't habla) for a sidearm chambered for a watered down 10mm, that was built to withstand a 9mm?
-If adequate lethality is acceptable for long arms used in combat, why is the same not pursued for sidearms?
-Who the fugk is Jeff Cooper?

The end result of these questions being asked, and answered, is that there is no real reason for most law enforcement entities to deviate from a properly loaded 9mm. That doesn't mean the .40 S&W isn't a great idea, because it is. Matter of fact, it's probably the most overlooked and underrated sporting cartridge out there. Whether you're considering handguns, rifles, or shotguns. It takes one of the greatest people shooting cartridges ever devised (the 38-40) and consolidates it into a pistol that's the size of a Glock 17 and has 15 +1 capacity.

That's a pretty incredible round and should always be recognized for its benefits. But if you think those benefits outshine a 9mm when discussed in the context of law enforcement or military applications, you're high on fugking bat schit and have much to learn regarding all things sidearms. Not only in their use, but their history.



You're welcome,
Flave

Hold on, you're capable of semi-sentient posts?

Who the heck are you, and what did you do with 'Flave?

My take on it is that had bullet technology been what it is today when the Miami shootout occurred, there never would have been so much questioning of the 9MM's effectiveness (and the 10mm may never have been born). But then again, maybe the selection made for duty ammo at that time was ill advised...I wouldn't know thing about what was available in 9mm at the time...but what I've read about the shootout gives me the distinct impression that the performance of LE's guns and ammo was pretty bad and the right thing to do was look for something better.

FWIW, I think the .40 S&W is actually a great self-defense round.

Pay more attention, dumb fugk.

Pennsylvania is angry with Deflave.

Pennsylvania can suck my dick.

And they would, for a nickel.

When Flave speaks "handgun" I listen......

I like a 200gr WFN hardcast at 950 fps in my 40's.... ;_

I find a .40 in a Glock 22 or 23 is a good thing to have around and the right tool for most jobs when needed. Small enough to conceal, light enough to carry while working, powerful enough to take down a deer or pig or put down a cow, and I suspect it work just fine for self defense.

I like that much of the heavier (180-grain and up) factory ammo is flat point FMJ and around 1000 fps. That should work well for all the above uses and I suspect, but haven't tested, may out penetrate most .45 ACP loads.

The only downside I see for all-around use is that recoil is a little snappier than a 9mm in a light Glock-size gun. That's a trade-off I'm willing to accept. Though, I have migrated from a Glock 23 to a slightly larger police-trade-in Glock 22 to help with control.

Good weight/velocity combo right there but I'd be perfectly happy with 850.


Flave is God.

God is Flave.

Helluva dissertation, even for you, but pretty accurate.

Only thing you forgot to add was that too many pussies, either in name onl,y or in the literal sense, across all agencies, couldn't qualify & manage a 40 in the issued guns.

MM

If you want to type out your thoughts and include your own bullschit feel free to do so.

Don't try to add your bullschit to my facts.

Because as noted far above the .40 S&W is a little hard to hold on to in a minimum sized pistol and in a full sized pistol other cartridges show IMHO clear superiority - a just right pistol might make the .40 S&W the just right cartridge. A local mainly rural (big animals and far away backup) agency issued .40 S&W but had one person who couldn't keep the pistol from moving in the hand during qualifications so the whole department went to 9x19.

In a full sized 1911 my Platonic ideal is a 9x23 and I would choose a full .10mm over a .40 S&W. In a smaller pistol I can handle a .40 S&W assuming a good trigger and other amenities but I can't compensate for deficiencies in the pistol - compared to small improvements in carry customs - nearly so well as I might in 9x19 so no deep affection.

I have a switch barrel pistol originally .40 S&W with a .357 Sig and 9x19 conversion barrel. The .40 does twist, the .357 Sig is loud, the 9x19 is Goldilocks with far more available premium ammunition.

I have given thought to putting together a .40 S&W pistol to suit adding a long slide and maybe threaded barrel but the only way to get the 5"+ .40 S&W barrel I want (to my knowledge; I miss Storm Lake) is from Barsto where you get what you pay for but you do pay for it. I was actually happy to hear that my last Barsto order would be delayed a day (after some weeks) when the company told me shipping would be delayed one day from promise because Mr. Stone had been called away and their policy is nothing ships until he has at least given it one last look.

I can’t shoot a pistol because I have no thumbs. Nugget

In many ways a perfect grip wouldn’t include any thumbs.

Absolutely love my XD 40. It is far more accurate than I am these days. I started my love affair with the.40 cal in 1998 with the SW 4006 which is my all-time favorite semiautomatic pistol. Probably due to the extensive range and practice time that was dedicated to the 4006. I just feel very capable and confident when shooting the 40 cal.
Welp as circumstances are aught to happen, I got rid of the SW 4006 which I regret to this day. In 2012 I shot a buddies XD40 and was really impressed with the feel of it in my hand and at how well it shot! I went the next day to Academy Sports and bought the XD40.
Yes the 40 is bulkier and heavier than a 9mm for concealed carry but as with everything it's a trade-off. For me it boils down to what I feel comfortable and confident with and the .40cal fits the bill perfectly.
So yeah some people live it, some people hate it and some people just fine know. But ain't that how it is with most things?
What is the world's best handgun and cartridge? I will tell you, it's the one you have when the SHTF.

When the .40 S & W was introduced many law enforcement agencies rushed to equip their officers with the new round. Fast forward a few years and the love affair was over. I know of several gun shops who won't even take a .40 S & W in on trade, the internet is flooded with police turn in guns. My LEO son in law who went thru the .40 for 9mm transition was glad to get rid of the .40. His only comment on the .40 was that it was weird.

That’s some incredible insight.

Thank you so much.