|
|
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,401
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,401 |
The QL that Steve4102 posted is very close to results I've gotten in 2 different 280s with 22" barrels. One a pushfeed M70 & another in a Rem. 700. I've mostly worked with 150s & 160s in 280, but RL19 is a great powder for 140s along with IMR4831 & Acc.4350. IMR 4831 is a touch faster than H4831 & Acc. 4350 is very close to IMR4831 in the lots I have. This brings up another variable. Lot to lot powder variation is a very real thing. I have seen 2 different lots of H4350, fired the same day with otherwise exactly the same components show 250fps difference. Loading manuals aren't absolute gospel, only guides for safe start loads & max loads with their components. Your stuff is different than their stuff.
How far is the chronograph from your muzzle? Have you converted your #s to muzzle velocity? That will add 10 to 20 fps to your speeds. 2900 & change is really pretty close to 3000 in the overall scheme of things.
RL26 will give you more speed if you can find some. Good luck. Using Peterson brass, I've snuck up to 3300fps with 140s, but backed down 1 1/2gr from that for a tad over 3200fps in the 700. Groups were comparable to other good 140gr loads with the above powders.
Nosler manual shows the usable H20 capacity. You'll notice it gets smaller with longer bullets seated deeper which displaces some of the water. Maybe that's the difference from your full cases?
Re: Factory loads advertised speeds... A long time ago in the M70 R-P factory 280 Rem 150 PSPCL were listed at 2890fps & the actual was 2652 with 2" less barrel. With the R-P 7mm Express 150 PSPCL it was 2970/2794 again with 2" less, & Norma's 150 SP with unspecified barrel length was 2871 while the actual was 2731 in a 22".
Sacred cows make good burgers when you know what temperature to cook them at.-Rev. Billy
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,343 Likes: 12
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,343 Likes: 12 |
Barrels all vary a bit regarding the velocity they deliver; so do chronographs. Yours could be reading somewhat lower than actual. Most Sakos shoot so as long yours does, ignore the velocity numbers! I’ve killed about a dozen elk with the 270 and 140 gr bullets running right around 2900 f/s and none of them ever complained about it.
Yours in Liberty,
BL
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10 |
The QL that Steve4102 posted is very close to results I've gotten in 2 different 280s with 22" barrels. One a pushfeed M70 & another in a Rem. 700. I've mostly worked with 150s & 160s in 280, but RL19 is a great powder for 140s along with IMR4831 & Acc.4350. IMR 4831 is a touch faster than H4831 & Acc. 4350 is very close to IMR4831 in the lots I have. This brings up another variable. Lot to lot powder variation is a very real thing. I have seen 2 different lots of H4350, fired the same day with otherwise exactly the same components show 250fps difference. Loading manuals aren't absolute gospel, only guides for safe start loads & max loads with their components. Your stuff is different than their stuff.
How far is the chronograph from your muzzle? Have you converted your #s to muzzle velocity? That will add 10 to 20 fps to your speeds. 2900 & change is really pretty close to 3000 in the overall scheme of things.
RL26 will give you more speed if you can find some. Good luck. Using Peterson brass, I've snuck up to 3300fps with 140s, but backed down 1 1/2gr from that for a tad over 3200fps in the 700. Groups were comparable to other good 140gr loads with the above powders.
Nosler manual shows the usable H20 capacity. You'll notice it gets smaller with longer bullets seated deeper which displaces some of the water. Maybe that's the difference from your full cases?
Re: Factory loads advertised speeds... A long time ago in the M70 R-P factory 280 Rem 150 PSPCL were listed at 2890fps & the actual was 2652 with 2" less barrel. With the R-P 7mm Express 150 PSPCL it was 2970/2794 again with 2" less, & Norma's 150 SP with unspecified barrel length was 2871 while the actual was 2731 in a 22". His crony is one of these jobbies, cant adjust distance from barrel. https://www.scheels.com/p/magnetosp...pz-jG_AIVDhpMCh3R0AkVEAAYASAAEgI7KvD_BwE
Last edited by steve4102; 01/14/23.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10 |
Ok so I had a box of Winchester silvertips on the shelf. Noticed these had a velocity of 3040 on the back of the box. Took them to the range shot 3 of them across the chrono. Three shot avg was 2953 fps and under a inch group. Primers from factory ammo showed more pressure than 61 grn of H4831. Anyone have any info on the components Winchester uses? I know the bullet looks like combined technology. It appears they are much hotter than published data. I also filled two of my fired nosler cases full of water and got 72.5 and 72.3 grs of water. filled even with top case mouth. Nosler manual was much less than my findings. My guess is that the factory ammo velocity listing at 3040 is tested out of a 24 inch barrel, yours is 23- inches so that loss of 87fps is pretty darn close to identical. I highly doubt you are seeing "pressure" signs using factory ammo. As stated earlier, the 280 has a MAP (Max Average Pressure) of 60K psi, actual and "real" pressure signs usually don't show up until you reach around 70K psi. Reading primers to estimate pressure is akin to reading tea leaves, until you actually get into a "High" pressure situation, which your factory ammo is not. Nine times out of Nine, when you see slightly flattened primers, especially with Factory ammo, you are seeing a Headspace issue not a pressure issue. There is a space between the shoulder datum line on the brass and the chamber of the rifle. Because of that "space" and depending on how large that space is, When the round is fired the pressures causes the primer to back out slightly, when the chamber pressures increase, the case expands forcing the primer back into the pocket and most often will cause it to appear flattened. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12248142/1
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10 |
I also filled two of my fired nosler cases full of water and got 72.5 and 72.3 grs of water. filled even with top case mouth. Nosler manual was much less than my findings. Quickload has a default setting of 67.9gr H2O for the 280 Rem. Yours is 4.6gr higher, that's a lot. This difference could be a lot of things, QL is wrong, your chamber is large, or maybe your scale is off. Anyhow, here is what QL says when using your 72.5gr of H20. Cartridge : .280 Rem.
Bullet : .284, 140, Nosler BalTip 28140
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.330 inch or 84.58 mm
Barrel Length : 22.8 inch or 579.1 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-19 *C
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-20.0 78 47.20 2339 1701 28187 9291 85.0 1.511
-18.0 80 48.38 2398 1788 30001 9625 86.4 1.475
-16.0 82 49.56 2457 1877 31929 9955 87.8 1.440
-14.0 84 50.74 2516 1968 33981 10279 89.1 1.405
-12.0 86 51.92 2576 2062 36165 10596 90.3 1.373
-10.0 88 53.10 2635 2159 38491 10904 91.5 1.332
-08.0 90 54.28 2695 2258 40967 11202 92.6 1.293
-06.0 92 55.46 2755 2360 43611 11491 93.7 1.256
-04.0 94 56.64 2816 2464 46428 11767 94.7 1.220
-02.0 96 57.82 2876 2571 49435 12030 95.6 1.184
+00.0 98 59.00 2936 2680 52647 12279 96.4 1.150 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 100 60.18 2996 2791 56079 12513 97.1 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 102 61.36 3056 2904 59734 12731 97.8 1.086 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 104 62.54 3116 3019 63618 12932 98.4 1.055 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 106 63.72 3176 3136 67766 13114 98.9 1.025 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 108 64.90 3236 3256 72202 13276 99.3 0.997 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 98 59.00 3088 2965 62920 12328 99.7 1.064 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 98 59.00 2740 2334 43045 11623 89.0 1.260 Note your 59gr of R19 is only 2936fps with a Pmax of 52,647psi.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10 |
Have you double and triple checked your scale with check weights?
What scale are you using?
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,298 Likes: 11
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,298 Likes: 11 |
I will say this with no hope of it being followed: Stop chasing velocity.
You might be able to duplicate the lab's results...if you used the exact same components in the exact same rifle. And I don't just mean the same type of components, but the exact same lot numbers from the same cans, same brass, and same box of bullets. Fired over their chronograph.
Other than that, you're wasting time and precious components for nothing more than bragging rights. At the risk of damaging the rifle or yourself. It is FAR more valuable to have a load that shoots consistently: repeatable groups at repeatable velocity.
Or learn to throw the reloading book at 3,000 fps.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 3,087 Likes: 7
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 3,087 Likes: 7 |
I will say this with no hope of it being followed: Stop chasing velocity.
You might be able to duplicate the lab's results...if you used the exact same components in the exact same rifle. And I don't just mean the same type of components, but the exact same lot numbers from the same cans, same brass, and same box of bullets. Fired over their chronograph.
Other than that, you're wasting time and precious components for nothing more than bragging rights. At the risk of damaging the rifle or yourself. It is FAR more valuable to have a load that shoots consistently: repeatable groups at repeatable velocity.
Or learn to throw the reloading book at 3,000 fps. Now don’t go inserting common sense into the discussion. Nothing interesting will come from that! 🤭
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10 |
Chasing velocity and chasing accuracy are both part of the joy in handloading. That’s one reason why they sell cronys and why manuals publish their velocity data.
If you are going to just grab a manual, load up some rounds, take a few shots at the range, then go hunting, might as well just use factory ammo.
Hornady pressure tests their loads in pressure barrels , then they shoot those loads in rifles to give us a more realistic perspective on what to expect as far as velocity is concerned. Now why would they do that if velocity was so irrelevant and unimportant.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10 |
If you had a 280 Remington that was getting 7mm-08 velocities, wouldn’t you want to know why, or would you just use your common sense and ignore it.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10 |
Will it kill any better at 3000 than 2800 fps. ?? At long range, yes.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 3,087 Likes: 7
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 3,087 Likes: 7 |
If you had a 280 Remington that was getting 7mm-08 velocities, wouldn’t you want to know why, or would you just use your common sense and ignore it. Actually, top velocities With light bullets don’t differ much between these two rounds. Same deal for 308 vs 30-06. With heavier bullets the larger cases kind of pull away. IMO, sweating over 2900 vs 3000 is kind of silly.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10 |
You must have missed the part where the OP says he had to go 2 gr OVER max to reach 2900,
It’s a good thing that he wants to find out why, not a foolish end ever by any means
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 152,368 Likes: 43
Campfire Savant
|
Campfire Savant
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 152,368 Likes: 43 |
Get a 7 mag or ream it out to Ackley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 9
New Member
|
|
OP
New Member
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 9 |
RCBS 1500. Your Last QL results are spot on what i am seeing on Velocity. The Winchester factory round i disassembled had a charge of
63gr of ball type powder. Looked like Win 760 that i compared but color was a little off. But 63gr is way off anything 280rem books. that charge is all over 280I. But it did hit 2960.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 7,420 Likes: 24
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 7,420 Likes: 24 |
I have a Sako 280 24" in a laminated stock. Bought it new many years ago, turns out they are scarcer then hens teeth.
Also have a custom 280AI with 25" Schneider barrel, which I had built after reading about Kenny Jarrett's beanfield rifles. Maybe some of you were not even alive at that time.
Spent time on load development of course and I'll cut to the chase on (accurate) MV I settled in on (all chronographed):
24" 280 Sako (shoots in the 5's with a 6x42)
140 BT @ 3,050 IMR4350
150 BT & PT @ 3,000 Rel22
160 PT @ 2,900 Rel22
25" 280AI Schneider barrel (shoots in the 2's with a 4.4-14)
140 BT @ 3,250 IMR4831 (these go into one hole-no joke)
150 BT & PT @ 3,100 Rel22
160 PT @ 3,000 Rel22
I found IMR4350, IMR4831, Rel 19, Rel 22 to be very useful in both cartridges.
Rel19 & Rel22 are the same powder with different deterrent coatings (from the horses mouth).
I think the 150 and 160 grain bullets make for better balanced and useful loads in both cartridges (accuracy, velocity, penetration, wind) though the 140 BT kills very well in the 280 - several deer and antelope.
I have also found double base powders work best with heavy for caliber bullets (in several cartridges), but needs to run at full throttle, the gun begins to sweat, at which point ladder tests groups tighten up dramatically and SD drops like a rock. But you won't have much, if any, wiggle room left. Work up in 1/2 grain increments in the 280. YMMV.
Single base powders can make for some very accurate loads, but typically at something less then top velocity. YMMV.
Fed 210M (match) work well in both, no need for "magnum" primers unless you want to try them.
And I agree with others, if you have it rebarreled, go with the 280AI. Very efficient case, and 280 brass is going the way of the Dodo bird. 280AI brass is more available (from Nosler) and likely will continue to be. Plus it has the has the "cool" factor going for it. But.....
.......you don't say what animals you are hunting and at what ranges you expect to shoot. And since you don't disclose your location, wouldn't even hazard a guess.
Last edited by SupFoo; 01/14/23.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10 |
RCBS 1500. Your Last QL results are spot on what i am seeing on Velocity. The Winchester factory round i disassembled had a charge of
63gr of ball type powder. Looked like Win 760 that i compared but color was a little off. But 63gr is way off anything 280rem books. that charge is all over 280I. But it did hit 2960. Do you have a headspace comparator to compare your Fired brass to the unfired factory brass. Have you double checked what that 1500 is putting out on another scale, like an RCBS balance beam. If the culprit turns out to be a large chamber, have the barrel set back one turn and re-chambered into an Ackley. You won’t be disappointed. No reason to swap out the barrel to Go Ackley. …and ignore these guys that tell you to ignore velocity
Last edited by steve4102; 01/14/23.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,422 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,422 Likes: 4 |
This is all very interesting. My .280 Rem. is based on a 1909 Argentine Mauser with the action by DWM. Barrel is a fairly heavy 24" Douglass. I can run a 160 gr. Speer Grand Slam at 2907 FPS with accuracy close to .50". Unless you have some Winchester Magnum Rifle (WMR) powder on hand, my data would be worthless. According to the little load data booklet #15 published by Winchester velocity and pressure should be as follows.
57.8 gr.
2795 FPS
56,800 PSI.
Note that they gave four loads for three bullets. two for a 120 gr. bullet withW760 for one and one using WMR. WMR was used for the 145 and 160 gr. bullets.
Pressure data is well BELOW the MAP figure of 60KPSI.
W760/120gr./57,500PSI
WMR/ 120gr./50,100PSI
WMR/ 145gr./53,500PSI
WMR/ 160gr./56,800PSI.
Those pressures are notably below 60KPSI probably because Remington asked SAAMI to keep them low so as to not damage Remington's semi-auto and pump gun.
Another powder that will give good speed is IMR7828. I got the speed but not the accuracy in my rifle.
I guess my point is this; with careful load workup, you can easily reach the pressure level of the .270. I figure my .280 load is probably right at the 65KPSI level as brass life has been good. Too bad Remington screwed the pooch with the .280. I'm thinking it would have been a lot more popular if they'd gone with a proper pressure level.
PJ
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them.
MOLON LABE
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,361 Likes: 10 |
7828 was my Go-To powder in my 30-06 AI, until it was discontinued a few years back.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 9
New Member
|
|
OP
New Member
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 9 |
I bought a can of superformance today. Backed off my H4831 charge and gave it a go. Velocity popped up to 3050 fps. This powder supposedly has a slower burn rate but it appeared to me that it built a little more pressure than the healthier charge of 4831. Accuracy was not as consistent with the extra velo. Its a ball type powder that didn't fill the case like the H4831. I cant locate any RL 26 or 22 around me so since I have an abundance of H4831 Ill settle 2950 fps and the accuracy and call it a day. Thx for all the QL charts and the experience you shared. Now to work up loads for the Sako 75 260 rem.
|
|
|
|
|
533 members (1OntarioJim, 219 Wasp, 1badf350, 10gaugemag, 160user, 1Longbow, 45 invisible),
2,321
guests, and
1,233
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,194,334
Posts18,526,750
Members74,031
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
