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Originally Posted by Willto
Quote
Sheesh... Matthew was a disciple, Mark was a disciple, John was a disciple and wrote 5 books of the NT.

So you still believe the Gospels were written by the person whose name they bear. I got some sad news for ya.

Yep, I believe that. Matthew was a tax collector and was chosen by Jesus as one of the twelve disciples. Mark was a frequent companion with Peter during the formation of the early church after Christ's resurrection. Luke was a doctor and was a frequent companion with Paul whose main task was to bring the gospel to the Gentiles. And John was "the disciple Jesus loved" describes the purpose of his magnificent gospel thusly:

The disciples saw Jesus do many other miraculous signs in addition to the ones recorded in this book. But these are written so that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing in Him you will have life by the power of His name.

And this:

This disciple is the one who testifies to these events and has recorded them here. And we know that his account of the things is accurate.

So yep, I believe the Bible. I believe when John says he was the author, he was the author. Someone, cooks up some story on why these early believers weren't the authors, doesn't mean squat to me or any other bible believing Christian.

God bless you all, may those who believe grow stronger in your faith, and may those who don't please listen.


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Originally Posted by Jahrs
Paul who wrote the rest of the NT certainly had a powerful encounter with Jesus after his resurrection. 500 people witnessed Christ being alive after His resurrection.

Acts 9 indicates Paul saw no resurrected Jesus..He was struck blind..
nor did his travel companions see any bodily Jesus.

As for the alleged '500' we have no first hand testimony from them.

I don't know about you. but if someone said they had a bunch
of witnesses that saw me do something, the law would require
their personal testimonies and right to cross- examination.


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It's hard enough to sort fact from fiction in current events, yet alone two thousand years ago.

Last edited by DBT; 01/25/23.
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Originally Posted by ctsmith
. In Jesus' first documented Sermon, the Sermon on the Mount, .

Who recorded the words of Jesus from the Mount?
..and who recorded the conversation of Jesus with
Satan in the desert?

Originally Posted by DBT
It's hard enough to sort fact from fiction in current events, yet alone two thousand years ago.

The other issue is that believers don't apply the
Evidentiary Scale to their claims like we do with
other claims outside of theology.

Try and claim you have 500 actual living witnesses to
Bigfoot and see if Xtians will then believe in Bigfoot.


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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Raspy
This is interesting....

Of a different note, my research shows that the first one to see Jesus after His resurrection was Mary Magdalene, just as it says (Mark 16:9). Then the others saw Him afterward.
I wonder if Mary Magdalene may have in fact been Jesus' wife. I don't think you could be a Jewish Rabbi in that day and time if you were not married. She certainly was close to Jesus and her marital status could have easily been edited out.

There are Arabic versions of scripture that avow that Jesus was born with a twin. Maybe Thomas? He was someone's twin.

He WAS someone’s twin?

Or are these “Arabic versions” as worthy of skepticism as the other ancient texts your presuppositions justify deconstructing?

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I think Peter and John both wrote first hand testimony as well as Paul. John in his gospel as mentioned previously, and Peter in his second epistle.ch 1:16-19. Paul (or Saul as he was known at the time) was blinded by a bright light and heard a voice who identified Himself as: "I am Jesus, the one whom you are persecuting". So to say, he didn't see Him, may be technically correct, but to say he didn't meet Him would be false. Starman, I will pray for you, whether you want me to or not.


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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Raspy
This is interesting....

Of a different note, my research shows that the first one to see Jesus after His resurrection was Mary Magdalene, just as it says (Mark 16:9). Then the others saw Him afterward.
I wonder if Mary Magdalene may have in fact been Jesus' wife. I don't think you could be a Jewish Rabbi in that day and time if you were not married. She certainly was close to Jesus and her marital status could have easily been edited out.

There are Arabic versions of scripture that avow that Jesus was born with a twin. Maybe Thomas? He was someone's twin.

Good question....according to Birger A. Pearson, novelists and screenwriters try to insert something salacious into the life of Jesus, they focus on one woman: Mary from Magdala. Was Mary Magdalene a prostitute? Was Mary Magdalene the wife of Jesus?

Pearson sets forth in “From Saint to Sinner” a noncanonical Gospel of Mary, enhances her role to a greater proportion. Her ongoing role in the early church is subject to speculation, but she is indeed getting more respect in theological circles, not for being Mary Magdalene wife of Jesus nor for being Mary Magdalene a prostitute, but for being a faithful follower of her Rabboni—her teacher.

When novelists and screenwriters try to insert something salacious into the life of Jesus, they focus on one woman: Mary from Magdala. Was Mary Magdalene a prostitute? Was Mary Magdalene the wife of Jesus?

Only the Western church has said that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. The Eastern church has always honored her as an apostle, noting her as the “apostle to the apostles,” based on the account of the Gospel of John which has Jesus calling her by name and telling her to give the news of his resurrection to the other disciples.

Pearson notes, there’s no substantial evidence for either of these theories. As for her being named in the New Testament, none of the Gospels hints of her as being Mary Magdalene, wife of Jesus. Three Gospels name her only as a witness of his crucifixion and/or burial. All four Gospels place her at the scene of Jesus’ resurrection (though Luke does not list her as a witness). Only in the Gospel according to Luke is there even the slightest implication that she might have had a past life that could raise eyebrows and the question: Was Mary Magdalene a prostitute? Luke 8 names her among other female followers and financial supporters, and says that she had been released from the power of seven demons.

So for me, it is hard to say.


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Originally Posted by efw
He WAS someone’s twin?

Or are these “Arabic versions” as worthy of skepticism as the other ancient texts your presuppositions justify deconstructing?
THOMAS was someone's twin. His names denote that. Didymos and Thomas translate to twin.


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Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Dudes, it is interesting the difference in our motivations when we are discussing these type of things. We (Christians) only care about your eternal soul, and we'd like nothing more than for the Holy Spirit to shine His light on you, so you can see and understand the truth, and come to know the One True God. I'll leave it at that. These responses are strangely consistent from the Christian brothers on this forum.


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Originally Posted by Raspy
Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Raspy
This is interesting....

Of a different note, my research shows that the first one to see Jesus after His resurrection was Mary Magdalene, just as it says (Mark 16:9). Then the others saw Him afterward.
I wonder if Mary Magdalene may have in fact been Jesus' wife. I don't think you could be a Jewish Rabbi in that day and time if you were not married. She certainly was close to Jesus and her marital status could have easily been edited out.

There are Arabic versions of scripture that avow that Jesus was born with a twin. Maybe Thomas? He was someone's twin.

Good question....according to Birger A. Pearson, novelists and screenwriters try to insert something salacious into the life of Jesus, they focus on one woman: Mary from Magdala. Was Mary Magdalene a prostitute? Was Mary Magdalene the wife of Jesus?

Pearson sets forth in “From Saint to Sinner” a noncanonical Gospel of Mary, enhances her role to a greater proportion. Her ongoing role in the early church is subject to speculation, but she is indeed getting more respect in theological circles, not for being Mary Magdalene wife of Jesus nor for being Mary Magdalene a prostitute, but for being a faithful follower of her Rabboni—her teacher.

When novelists and screenwriters try to insert something salacious into the life of Jesus, they focus on one woman: Mary from Magdala. Was Mary Magdalene a prostitute? Was Mary Magdalene the wife of Jesus?

Only the Western church has said that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. The Eastern church has always honored her as an apostle, noting her as the “apostle to the apostles,” based on the account of the Gospel of John which has Jesus calling her by name and telling her to give the news of his resurrection to the other disciples.

Pearson notes, there’s no substantial evidence for either of these theories. As for her being named in the New Testament, none of the Gospels hints of her as being Mary Magdalene, wife of Jesus. Three Gospels name her only as a witness of his crucifixion and/or burial. All four Gospels place her at the scene of Jesus’ resurrection (though Luke does not list her as a witness). Only in the Gospel according to Luke is there even the slightest implication that she might have had a past life that could raise eyebrows and the question: Was Mary Magdalene a prostitute? Luke 8 names her among other female followers and financial supporters, and says that she had been released from the power of seven demons.

So for me, it is hard to say.
It's hard for me to say also. The Christian church has stitched on so much that doesn't make sense. I think Thomas Jefferson was right to try to ferret out the actual teachings of Jesus and combine them into his Jefferson Bible.


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Originally Posted by bludog
Dudes, it is interesting the difference in our motivations when we are discussing these type of things. We (Christians) only care about your eternal soul, and we'd like nothing more than for the Holy Spirit to shine His light on you, so you can see and understand the truth, and come to know the One True God. I'll leave it at that. These responses are strangely consistent from the Christian brothers on this forum.

Agreed


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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by efw
He WAS someone’s twin?

Or are these “Arabic versions” as worthy of skepticism as the other ancient texts your presuppositions justify deconstructing?
THOMAS was someone's twin. His names denote that. Didymos and Thomas translate to twin.

I apologize I misunderstood

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Originally Posted by Hastings
I think Thomas Jefferson was right to try to ferret out the actual teachings of Jesus and combine them into his Jefferson Bible.

Jefferson basically threw the miracle claims
in the bin and remained a Deist.

Some may be surprised How many Founding Fathers
were Deist, not Theist —A philosophy where human
reason rather than reliance on an interventional god
as a means of solving problems.


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Originally Posted by Starman
The other issue is that believers don't apply the
Evidentiary Scale to their claims like we do with
other claims outside of theology.

Try and claim you have 500 actual living witnesses to
Bigfoot and see if Xtians will then believe in Bigfoot.

Is this what you are referring to?

The burden of proof determines which party is responsible for putting forth evidence and the level of evidence they must provide in order to prevail. In most cases, the plaintiff (the party bringing the claim) has the burden of proof. As an initial matter, they must meet the burden of production. This requires the plaintiff to put forth evidence in the form of witness testimony, documents, or objects. After the plaintiff presents his or her case-in-chief, the burden of production shifts to the defendant, who then has the opportunity to provide evidence either rebutting the plaintiff’s evidence or supporting the defendant’s own arguments.

Don't ask Christians for proof....the is none....but we have lotsa evidence.


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Originally Posted by Raspy
.

Don't ask Christians for proof....the is none....but we have lotsa evidence.

Where does such evidence plot on the
Evidentiary Scale?


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Even the claim of having evidence for miraculous events is questionable. Being written is not evidence.

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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Raspy
.

Don't ask Christians for proof....the is none....but we have lotsa evidence.

Where does such evidence plot on the
Evidentiary Scale?

Again,

Is this what you are referring to?

The burden of proof determines which party is responsible for putting forth evidence and the level of evidence they must provide in order to prevail. In most cases, the plaintiff (the party bringing the claim) has the burden of proof. As an initial matter, they must meet the burden of production. This requires the plaintiff to put forth evidence in the form of witness testimony, documents, or objects. After the plaintiff presents his or her case-in-chief, the burden of production shifts to the defendant, who then has the opportunity to provide evidence either rebutting the plaintiff’s evidence or supporting the defendant’s own arguments.


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Originally Posted by Raspy
Originally Posted by Starman
Where does such evidence plot on the
Evidentiary Scale?

Again,

Is this what you are referring to? ....

No, that is not the evidentiary scale. Submissions of evidence are graded
according to the evidentiary scale. Evidence can be considered inadequate
by a judge If it don't meet the required minimum.


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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Raspy
Originally Posted by Starman
Where does such evidence plot on the
Evidentiary Scale?

Again,

Is this what you are referring to? ....

No, that is not the evidentiary scale. Submissions of evidence are graded
according to the evidentiary scale. Evidence can be considered inadequate
by a judge If it don't meet the required minimum.

You got me...I'm lost in what you are referring to.


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Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
Did you see the "Big Bang"?
God and the Big Bang are not mutually exclusive.

I made no statement to either effect. My point was that the atheists are perfectly willing to believe what someone today tells them about what was allegedly seen through a super-duper telescope and enhanced by a super-duper computer; and then believe the theory which they say explains what the computer produced. But they dismiss eyewitness accounts of the resurrection. Intellectual snobbery at its finest.

You need to educate yourself about the science and what constitutes facts and evidence. Faith is not a suitable substitute for the truth.

There are no eyewitness accounts of the alledged resurrection anyway - you're making crap up.


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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