Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Trouble getting X's to group: HELP!!!

OK, Stick, you out there????<P>I've heard that a clean barrel is the key, so I've cleaned the crp out of this baby and so far, working up loads with re22 and imr7828, I haven't had better than a 2+" group, with most a lot worse. I've tried adjusting the COL, but that doesn't seem to be helping either. I was getting close to 3400 fps with them (165grain XLC's) which was cool.<P>I was beginning to think it was me, but I went back to some loads I worked up with partitions and I was still getting groups less than an inch with them, sooooo.....<P>Any suggestions?<BR>btw, .300wby accumark, federal nickel plated brass, WLRMag primers

Muley,<P>I'm with ya...still trying to get the 180 gr. xlc's to shoot in my m700 .300 win mag. I know stick will chime in here, he gave me some suggestions I haven't tried yet, but if it doesn't come together pretty quick, I'm on to something else.<P>John

Try something lighter. It may seem strange, but since the x hangs together so well, you can get 180 grain performance from a 140 X. That's right shoot through a deer lengthwise, or bust both shoulders on an elk. Try them you might like them.

With my 270win I had to back off on the powder quit a bit to get decent groups.<BR> Fuzz

I shoot the X out of my 7x57 into less then an inch. I never could get it to shoot good in the 257.<P>Do you have a chorograph? if so what is the SD for the loadings.. When I chrono my 7x57 the SD has never be more then 12fps and sometimes the 5 shoot string will dip to 9 or 8. The 257 the SD was usally low 20's, but sill would not shoot well. Ditto on cleaning the cr*p out of the barrel to no effect.<P>One rifle loves then the other throws them all over. Yet the 257 will shoot Sierra game kings into 1/2, so I know it is a good rifle and barrel... I have ideas and theroies, but no facts. I would give the X a reasonable try, but if it does not fly right, go to what does. Putting the bullet where it needs to be is the MOST important factor, next is bullet construction. Fortunely, there are many well constructed bullets to choose from.

Pick,I want to try x's in my 257Ai,so I called Barnes Monday.A fella named Scott said he is shooting that cartridge this week to gather data for their new manual.He said I could call him Friday and he could tell me what he found out.<P>What 257 you shooting and how fast?

Barnes X bullets are among the best for performance on big game. The problem is you must hit the game to kill it and prefferably in the right spot. These are not very accurate bullets. OK for close range stuff before your groups have a chance to open up. Certainly not good for long range shooting. If you are one of the lucky few who has a gun that will group them then by all means use them. Performance is great.

Gene,<P>My 257 is the standard Roberts. The rifle is the Rem 722. I does not shoot anything under 100g either. I got this rifle used (the rifle is older then me, in other words, getting up there). My theory is the throat is getting long and some what ragged from all the chuck shooting the former owner did with it. I do not use it for varmits or such, I got if for deer, so no light wieght is fine with me.<P>Hunter,<P>I do not know about anyone else, but the 7x57mm that I have will put them inside three inches all day long from practice hunting posistions, not the bench. I know I have done it, just to find out what the load combo would do in the rifle. It was expensive $. Went through over 50 rounds, and most a box of clay pigions, and some paper puching. Most of it at the 200yrd line. As you state, if you put the X on game where it should be, then the performance is second to none.

Muley,<BR>Have worked some with the X bullets and here is what worked for me:remove ALL copper from bore before using X's or XLC's.I used an Outers foul out as nothing else got it all out.Seated bullets at least .050 from lands.This was necessary anyway in order to fit them in magazine.When shooting XLC fire at least 15 rounds without cleaning bore at all otherwise they would not group.Had to play around a little with the powder charge to get the best grouping.My rifle liked RL25<BR>a little below max pressure.I get very little copper buildup with the XLC.If I push a patch with solvent through the bore it removes the blue residue but destroys groups until about ten rounds have again been fired.Hope this helps.Frank.

Hi Muley. In their reloading manuel, Barnes states that one need not remove all the copper fouling, just enough to restore accuracy. Unfortunately, they don't tell you where that is. You need to experiment with their expensive bullets! With my .280, I didn't quite get all of it. What's been said about "refouling" the bore has been known to serious target shooters for years. If you get'em too clean, they need the fouling buildup to bring the harmonics of the barrel into consistancy (!). Anyway, that is a good point. Many have reported that the flat base bullets shoot better than the boatail design. Another thing to try. Good luck. E

I see that no one has mentioned lapping your barrel. Some folks are very hesitant to lap, but it often will help. A lot! A friend of mine was trying to get a new Rem. stainless, 25-06 to shoot X's. His groups were pretty bad (similar to your problems). He finially tried it,tightened his groups(sub 1"), and promptly went out and killed one of the biggest bull elk I've had the privilege of seeing. Good Luck -memtb

I've been having the same problem trying to shoot an 85gr. XLC in my 243 and my 6mmRem. In the 243 I tried Re-19, Varget, and H-4831. The H-4831 was the best. Just got a can of IMR-4831 to try. I've adjusted the COL and that doesn't help much. This is the first bullet that my 6mmRem doesn't like.

Well, I finally got dies for my wife's .30-06 and it shoots the X's just fine. I don't know that X's are a good choice in such a "slow" shooting caliber, but had to try them in a different rifle to see if it was just me. Go figure! It is shooting ballistic tips even better.<P>Figures that a $400 Ruger MkII would shoot better than an $1100 Wby Accumark!!!<P>I hope my wife doesn't notice that I'll be taking her rifle hunting this year instead of mine. After all, she drew a ML elk tag this year, so she's going to have to borrow my ML.

FWIW, this is from Barnes site: <P>Begin Quoted Text:<P>BORE CLEANING<BR>The importance of having a clean bore cannot be over emphasized. We shoot a lot of different rifles at Barnes, and probably 4 out of every 5 guns brought to us with "just cleaned bores" have a significant amount of copper fouling still in them. It is this fouling which will most affect the accuracy of the bullet. Some guns will shoot 200 shots and seemingly not be affected, while others will not shoot well after 20. The Barnes bullets are made from a pure copper, not a copper alloy like other manufacturers. This pure copper is softer and therefore more sensitive to the fouling.<BR>Using a good copper remover such as Barnes CR-10, one can get the fouling out quickly and safely. <P>It has been our experience that the copper in our bullets will not foul any faster than a copper alloy IF THE BORE IS FREE FROM FOULING TO BEGIN WITH. <P>Follow the directions on the bottle and by removing the fouling properly you should notice a marked improvement in accuracy.<P>End Quoted Text.<P>I have know several rifles that made amazing improvements in grouping ability after a thorough cleaning. I would try to get the bore dead clean before using Xs. I'm planning on using/trying them in a 7-08 and I'm going to try my Foul Out which I have had for a while and never used.

Muley: The new Guns magazine has an article about firelapping the barrel for improved accuracy. It is done at home by firing 5 special bullets in sequence with differant lapping compounds on each bullet. Comes in a kit I think. The article had detailed before and after groups showing markedly increased accuracy? I don't' know if it's equal to Pat spending 8 hours hand lapping my 375 barrel ?? (grin) But the article indicated very very significant gains anyway.<P>Good Luck.<P>Tex

Muley,<P>Check your Email............

Stick: What the crap kinda answer was that anyway? Half of us are memorizing or recording your every X-bullet post. This could of saved THOUSANDS (ok maybe hundreds... allright maybe 5 !) of us grief on these X-Bullet problems. I was anxiously awaiting your answer here. Heck I even went so far as to poke you with a sharp stick to make you answer then you don't share your words of wisdom with all of us but communicate in code with just Muley??? <P>Man am I bummed.<P>MULEY!!! You better post his answer after I harrased his butt to answer you in the first place. (unless it contains classified Barnes-X trade secrets that would somehow compromise national security) Can you say "Nuclear Barnes X".<P>Love Ya Man<P>Tex

Tex,<BR>Didn't mean to start a riot(grin),just sent him my phone number and told him to call me.<P>Muley,<P><BR>I have no secrets,though I WISH I did. Just an elimination of variables and a strict adherence to sound reloading practices. I'm different than most,in regards to the X and seating depth. I've found that propellant charge weight,makes little difference regarding accuracy,in my barrels. I strive to find a safe working max,with a powder I favor(99.9999% of the time,that is a Reloader series propellant)and then I may slightly alter seating depth. <P>I start my load development,with the bullet kissing the lands or just soooo very slightly away. That has always been a shortcut for me,to eek the potential out of the vast majority of my barrels. I never could see making a bullet jump,for no reason. The exception is mag box constraints and a longish throat. In that situation,I simply seat bullets to reliably feed and go from there,with powder charge weight experimentation(again searching to find a safe working max pressure level/velocity).<P>I don't like to alter more than one variable at a time. If I juggle seating depth,I research that change,before altering charge weight. That means I shoot paper and critique accuracy potential.<P>If you start your load development,with the bullet very near the lands,no wicked pressure spikes can get you. If you started your X .050" off,as per Barne's recommendation and found a safe working max pressure level,you'd possibly nuke your rifle if you went to a longer cartridge overall length(COAL). The converse of that,is a safe practice. A warm load,that engages the rifling,becomes more sedate as the distance is increased between the ogive and the rifling,if charge weight remains the same. So you needn't ever worry,about anything "exciting" with that method of load development/experimentation. (I'm NOT knocking Barne's printed advice,just relaying my train of thought and the method I favor).<P>So back to the original question. As mentioned,a clean barrel is important. I believe that especially to be true,when going to and from coated projectiles. So my advice,is to determine that the bore IS really clean,rather than just thinking it is. I couldn't count the number of rifles I've "fixed" for friends,by simply cleaning them. If you can read directions,the FoulOut is excellent. I mention that snide remark,because dummy here,bullheaded his way through the process and ruined a $500 barrel,that was both fluted and cryo'd. That sucked! Read the instructions,adhere to them and you'll be amazed at the incredible amount of fouling,that resides in a "clean" bore. It is an eye opener! The other method,is a good solvent. I prefer CR-10 and favor it to all others,because it will remove fouling,where other patches read clean. It is better than good.<P>After determining a clean barrel,simply give your rifle a once over. Takes only seconds,but could save you frustrating DAYS. Check the action screws,ring and base screws,if they check out,you're on your way. I mention this,because it is an all too common occurence. You wouldn't imagine a single "loose" screw,could cause so much havoc. It can,will and does. The first year the Rem 700 LSS came out,I snatched one up. It was chambered in 300Win Mag and shot pretty good. As time rolled on,accuracy suffered and I nearly went nuts trying to diagnose the problem. I had bedded it prior and knew that was sound,as the stock was quite rigid. I looked at the action screws,scrubbed the barrel until my arms hurt,looked at the crown under magnification and burned up an obscene quantity of components assembling new loads to get accuracy back. Finally,utterly disgusted,I was going to have it rebarreled. Upon disassembly,I discovered a possible cause. After removing the scope and rings,I found the front scope base screw was loose. Immediately,I reassembled the rifle and headed to the range. Like magic,it was shooting better than ever. Of course I was still pizzed at my ignorance and STILL fired the rifle off to be rebarreled(my small satisfaction,for the trauma it had induced upon me). Long story short,NEVER overlook the obvious. Even though your rifle shoots the one load fairly well,that does NOT determine that all is well. It takes seconds to confirm.<P>Another area,that can cause huge impacts in accuracy potential,is the bedding. I never contemplate reloading a single round,for a new rifle,until the action is properly bedded. Without bedding,the rifle CAN'T shoot to it's potential,though it may still shoot nicely. A rifle that shoots nice unbedded,will likely scare you regarding accuracy,after a good bedding job.<P>Soooo after determining a clean bill of health mechanically on the rifle,I'd go back to load development. Properly adjust your sizing die,trim cases religiously,start at the rifling and find a safe working max. From there,as experimentation,slightly tweak seating depth(if necessary).<P> The 300Win/H&H/Wby/Super,165gr XLC,Re-22 and CCI250's,are a rather forgiving combo in my experience. Before burning a gazillion pounds of powder,make certain the barrel is clean and everything tight(I know I keep repeating that,but it sure is often overlooked). If your rifle still won't deliver the accuracy level you seek and fouls heavily(sign of a roughly finished bore)I would then take the advice given by others and contemplate a fire-lapping procedure. I've seen it work miracles on friends Factory rifles. One in particular(a Model Seven S/S 260Rem),was quite accurate with several loads and the 95gr V-Max especially. However,it refused to shoot various weight X's well and showed signs of heavy fouling,regardless of bullet make. The owner fire-lapped it and the groups shrunk AMAZINGLY,with all projectile types and the X's in particular. As an aside,fouling was dramatically reduced. For the minimal fee to conduct that test,I'd recommend it,if all other options fail to impress you. <P>I would imagine my rifles penchant for X's,is due to several factors. Foremost,is the fact that most my pet rifles,wear high grade S/S blanks. That is a smoother platform from which to launch them and certainly contributes to their accuracy and ease of maintenance. BUT,I shoot X's in a ton of Factory barrels(22K-Hornet,223,22-250,22-250Ackley,224Wby,Swift,243Win,6mmRem,25-06,7-08,7mmRemMag,300Win,300Wby,375H&H)accuracy has never been a problem to achieve. I'm not implying that the X is the single most accurate bullet in those barrels,but all will print under an inch and some half of that. Several of my pet rifles,will shoot .25" groups with X's.<P>If I overstated the obvious,I apologize. At times it is pretty easy to look in the wrong direction. Believe me,I've done that a LOT(grin).........

Stick I knew you had it in you dude. I fugured it was more then you wanted to type so I poked you agian with a new sharp stick (grin)<P>You saved thousands ! ok hundreds !! Ok maybe 5 of us (grin) of further headaches.<P>Tex

I got the 257 100 gr xlc bullets in friday.I called to check on my order.I gave our friend,Big Stick,credit for the purchase.The lady said he sent them a lot of business.She also said order processing was slowed somewhat by the fact that she was in a family way.She didnt make any connection between Stick and her condition and so I didnt either.<P>Pick,you and I will have an easier time with load development since our 722,s leave the bullet a long ways off the lands when loaded to fit the magazine.we cant do any tweaking there I find out.The numbers are out in the shop,but it's over.100 in my rifle,I'm sure.MIght get to shoot them this afternoon,but CAT has give me a thinking project that may take up my time.grin.