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Campfire Ranger
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OP
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Do you think that some people…maybe a lotta people…who don’t believe in God reject Him for volitional reasons rather than for intellectual reasons…?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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I witnessed, on television, David Copperfield make a Boing 747 disappear into thin air.
I have seen Justin Willman float in midair.
The world witnessed Joe Biden get elected as POTUS in 2020.
The nation watched as a single deranged gunman killed JFK.
And then as another killed RFK.
I am a bit skeptical that any of these events actually happened as portrayed.
Doppelgangers, body doubles are easy when a conspiracy is 35 years in the making. And easier when recorders have centuries to perfect the telling of the story.
Just my humble opinion in answer to the OP. No attempt to convince anyone else. So, is it correct that you are “choosing….not to believe in the biblical account of Jesus’ life, death and resurrection?” You seem to explain away Jesus’ minisitry as a cavalcade of trickery and written falsehoods. Or, will you say something like “God has failed to convince me?” Can I choose to believe David Copperfield made a 747 disappear into the ether? When I know the law of conservation of mass and energy? Can I choose to believe Justin Willman can levitate simply with the power of his mind? When I know the law of gravity and equal and opposite forces? I can no more CHOOSE to believe YOUR God is real than you can choose to believe the sun is actually Opollo racing across the sky in a flaming horse drawn chariot. You KNOW Apollo is a myth! Well, you are indeed making a choice…. Do not be confused about that. So, I am correct that you do not believe….. by you own choice …….based on your interpretation of evidence available… ….. that you …. after considering the evidence …. conclude that Jesus ….”My God” If you will…. Do not believe the biblical account of Jesus life, death and resurrection?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,592 Likes: 18 |
I think there’s very good evidence that Christianity is true. When it comes to atheism, I think it takes a lot more faith to be an atheist than a Christian.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire Ranger
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Joined: Dec 2002
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How do you explain the growth of the early Jesus movement…? It was a tiny group of men (some of whom might’ve even been teenagers) that was sandwiched between the powerful Jewish Temple (the very center of the religion of Judaism)…that despised them and wanted them to be nonexistent…and the mighty Roman Empire…who also despised them and wanted them to be nonexistent. Yet, despite the persecution from both of these entities (and the Jewish Temple was the first of those to persecute Jesus and His followers), the early Jesus movement spread like an airborne contagion.
What fueled it…? It certainly wasn’t fueled by something that was written. It was fueled by something extraordinary that happened. Even Bart Erhman asserts that the rapid growth of early Christianity was due to something extraordinary that happened. The movement of the once tiny group of Jesus’ earliest and most devoted followers eventually replaced the entire pantheon of Roman and barbarian gods, and it saw the end of the Jewish Temple (and ancient Judaism) and the Roman Empire ~ both of whom had been powerful and mighty entities that had tried…and failed…to stamp this tiny group…along with its movement…out of existence.
Even Bart Erhman concedes that “The ancient triumph of Christianity proved to be the single greatest cultural transformation our world has ever seen.” For hundreds of years, the Jewish tribes got along fine with their priests as the only form of government. But just like any group with a monopoly of control, the priesthood got greedy and oppressive. Absolute power......and all that. Then the Romans came along and civilized the world. All the sudden the peasants had to supports TWO governing bodies, not to mention the legal conflicts arising with deciding to follow the old laws, or abide by Roman Law. No longer were Jews allowed to pick up arms and slaughter any village or tribe they disagreed with and claim it was God's divine will. The Roman Army took a dim view of such shenanigans. The Jews were desperate for for change. I believe Christ was a tool of a cabal of revisionist priests striving to save what they could of the Jewish tradition, before it was wiped from the Earth. I believe the Cabal included Zachariah and Elizabeth, as Mary was living at their home prior to marriage to Joseph. How did the Christian movement grow so rapidly? How did the reformation grow so rapidly? It has been only 500 years since inception, yet observe the explosion of Protestant churches. How did the the Bolsheviks envelope Russia in only a few years? The Nazis took all of Europe in only a few years. MAGA has taken America by storm with almost 1/2 our population supporting Trump ten years after inception. How big is the Morman Church after only 200 years? When there is a need, and a leader emerges, people flock to follow. But that is just my take on the subject.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire Ranger
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Joined: Dec 2002
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History is established through multiple lines evidence. The gospels are our sole source of information that we have on Jesus, and they are written by unknown authors/believers decades or more after the described events. Many would argue that there are indeed “multiple lines” of evidence. One of you can correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t it Bart Ehrman that said that there is more evidence corroborating the historicity of Jesus than any other figure from “antiquity.” You just choose to disbelieve the evidence….. I can not imagine that any would argue that Jesus Christ the man, did not exist.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 26,101 Likes: 20
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 26,101 Likes: 20 |
I witnessed, on television, David Copperfield make a Boing 747 disappear into thin air.
I have seen Justin Willman float in midair.
The world witnessed Joe Biden get elected as POTUS in 2020.
The nation watched as a single deranged gunman killed JFK.
And then as another killed RFK.
I am a bit skeptical that any of these events actually happened as portrayed.
Doppelgangers, body doubles are easy when a conspiracy is 35 years in the making. And easier when recorders have centuries to perfect the telling of the story.
Just my humble opinion in answer to the OP. No attempt to convince anyone else. So, is it correct that you are “choosing….not to believe in the biblical account of Jesus’ life, death and resurrection?” You seem to explain away Jesus’ minisitry as a cavalcade of trickery and written falsehoods. Or, will you say something like “God has failed to convince me?” Can I choose to believe David Copperfield made a 747 disappear into the ether? When I know the law of conservation of mass and energy? Can I choose to believe Justin Willman can levitate simply with the power of his mind? When I know the law of gravity and equal and opposite forces? I can no more CHOOSE to believe YOUR God is real than you can choose to believe the sun is actually Opollo racing across the sky in a flaming horse drawn chariot. You KNOW Apollo is a myth! Well, you are indeed making a choice…. Do not be confused about that. So, I am correct that you do not believe….. by you own choice …….based on your interpretation of evidence available… ….. that you …. after considering the evidence …. conclude that Jesus ….”My God” If you will…. Do not believe the biblical account of Jesus life, death and resurrection? Can you look at the sky, and choose to believe that blue is actually scarlet? Can you look at the sun and choose to believe it is actually a flaming chariot? How can you even dream that such belief is a choice? If you are making a choice, it is in behavior. Not in actual belief. Sure, I could make a choice to behave as if I believed. Were the Inquisition rampant, I would have to pretend such or face the question, and burned at the stake. But it would be hypocrisy.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 26,101 Likes: 20
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
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Do you think that some people…maybe a lotta people…who don’t believe in God reject Him for volitional reasons rather than for intellectual reasons…? I would put it a different way. I believe most people who believe in God do so for volitional reasons rather than intellectual. See the discussion with TF49 in regard to "choice".
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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History is established through multiple lines evidence. The gospels are our sole source of information that we have on Jesus, and they are written by unknown authors/believers decades or more after the described events. Many would argue that there are indeed “multiple lines” of evidence. One of you can correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t it Bart Ehrman that said that there is more evidence corroborating the historicity of Jesus than any other figure from “antiquity.” You just choose to disbelieve the evidence….. I can not imagine that any would argue that Jesus Christ the man, did not exist. Question Jesus's existence no. His divinity yes.
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Joined: Jan 2011
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History is established through multiple lines evidence. The gospels are our sole source of information that we have on Jesus, and they are written by unknown authors/believers decades or more after the described events. Many would argue that there are indeed “multiple lines” of evidence. One of you can correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t it Bart Ehrman that said that there is more evidence corroborating the historicity of Jesus than any other figure from “antiquity.” You just choose to disbelieve the evidence….. I can not imagine that any would argue that Jesus Christ the man, did not exist. Question Jesus's existence no. His divinity yes. Well, that is a good clear answer! Fair enough….
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Nah, you just lifted something out of some other publication and then ….lazily….simply plodded along with them. I have followed the Cambridge history professors for some yrs as I have with Bart Ehrman and Richard Carrier all PhD qualified and peer reviewed. If you dont want to read up on them that's your problem. Edit to add: So, who were the “historians” of the day? I gave you Flavius Josephus to start with You can easily research to find other Roman historians of the 1st and 2nd century period. It's like you want to be spoon fed like a child.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
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Christopher Hitchens seemed to be really mad at God. He called God a cosmic North Korean dictator. He seemed to hate Him; he just seemed to not want there to be a God.
Thomas Nagle said that it’s not just that he didn’t believe in God, he said that he didn’t want there to be a God, he said he didn’t want the universe to be that way. And he said that one of the most disturbing things to him was that some of the most intelligent people he knew were believers.
Nietzsche said that if someone were to prove the God of Christianity to him, that he would believe him all the less.
Prominent atheists…professed beacons of reason…all of em’, and their reasons for rejecting God seem to be volitional rather than intellectual.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Tracker
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History is established through multiple lines evidence. The gospels are our sole source of information that we have on Jesus, and they are written by unknown authors/believers decades or more after the described events. Many would argue that there are indeed “multiple lines” of evidence. One of you can correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t it Bart Ehrman that said that there is more evidence corroborating the historicity of Jesus than any other figure from “antiquity.” You just choose to disbelieve the evidence….. It has been argued endlessly, yet there is still no evidence from multiple independent, objective sources....of course, Josephus, Tacitus, et al, were not witnesses.
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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...wasn’t it Bart Ehrman that said that there is more evidence corroborating the historicity of Jesus than any other figure from “antiquity.”
….. Again, historians dont corroborate miracles/ supernatural claims like resurrection. Bart Ehrman clearly states such..You have switched from the subjective faith claim of resurrection to the objective historical existence case for a Jesus. A Jesus actually existing in no way proves a virgin birth ,resurrection or turning water to wine.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
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”With respect to Jesus, we have numerous, independent accounts of his life in the sources lying behind the Gospels (and the writings of Paul) — sources that originated in Jesus’ native tongue Aramaic and that can be dated to within just a year or two of his life (before the religion moved to convert pagans in droves). Historical sources like that are pretty astounding for an ancient figure of any kind. ...the claim that Jesus was simply made up falters on every ground. ... like it or not, Jesus certainly existed.” - Bart Ehrman
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Bart Ehrmans historical studies don't support
supernatural claims that droves of Xtians base
their faith on.
Xtian Apologetics and Historicity don't mix.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,592 Likes: 18
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,592 Likes: 18 |
I believe Christ was a tool of a cabal of revisionist priests striving to save what they could of the Jewish tradition, before it was wiped from the Earth. But Jesus predicted the end of the Jewish Temple (the very center of ancient Judaism)…! And on August 6 in 70 AD when the Roman Legion completely destroyed the Jewish Temple…and it was literally wiped from the earth…the Mosaic covenant was never officially practiced again because it became impossible to do so. Bart Erhman asserts that the eventual triumph of Christianity was because it advocated for a “salvation that was not tied to explicit Jewish identity”… and this swung the doors wide open to the conversion of the Gentile pagan world.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Ranger
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In a world of 90 and 100 hour work weeks. When work was back breaking digging in the Earth trying to keep enough food around to keep your babies alive for another week.
When famine, pestilence, disease, or enslavement lurked around every corner. That promise of salvation and everlasting plenty was a pretty attractive fantasy.
Again, in answer to the OP. In a world of 30 to 40 hour work weeks. In a world where even the slackest of slackers are well fed and provided medical care. We have achieved Heaven on Earth.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Nah, you just lifted something out of some other publication and then ….lazily….simply plodded along with them. I have followed the Cambridge history professors for some yrs as I have with Bart Ehrman and Richard Carrier all PhD qualified and peer reviewed. If you dont want to read up on them that's your problem. Edit to add: So, who were the “historians” of the day? I gave you Flavius Josephus to start with You can easily research to find other Roman historians of the 1st and 2nd century period. It's like you want to be spoon fed like a child. More baloney…. You made a clear statement that the NT depiction of Pilate is at odds with “historians.” You apparently cannot back up this very specific allegation. And…. I doubt you will even try…
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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...wasn’t it Bart Ehrman that said that there is more evidence corroborating the historicity of Jesus than any other figure from “antiquity.”
….. Again, historians dont corroborate miracles/ supernatural claims like resurrection. Bart Ehrman clearly states such..You have switched from the subjective faith claim of resurrection to the objective historical existence case for a Jesus. A Jesus actually existing in no way proves a virgin birth ,resurrection or turning water to wine. Ok, so you will agree that Jesus was a very real historical figure….. and one who has had significant and lasting impact on mankind. Do you agree?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Bart Ehrmans historical studies don't support
supernatural claims that droves of Xtians base
their faith on.
Xtian Apologetics and Historicity don't mix. And again…. You don’t get it…. I don’t know a single Christian that bases their “faith in Jesus” on the record of miracles in the NT. I happen to believe them….but that is not the basis of my faith and belief. You know not whereof you speak…..again.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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