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OP
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I didn't know this would be such a controversial question, but I appreciate all the response. It's been interesting to follow. I guess I'll keep my '06 anyway.
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Joined: May 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard
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Joined: Oct 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I do not believe in inherent accuracy.It is all the rifle and the guy pulling the trigger.
Its all right to be white!! Stupidity left unattended will run rampant Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
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Joined: Jan 2018
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Campfire Member
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I didn't know this would be such a controversial question, but I appreciate all the response. It's been interesting to follow. I guess I'll keep my '06 anyway. It's January on the 'fire, everything is controversial
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,135 Likes: 12
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
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I didn't know this would be such a controversial question, but I appreciate all the response. It's been interesting to follow. I guess I'll keep my '06 anyway. Because of this thread, I bought a new 30-06. Thanks!!!! It's about as "inherently" accurate as the rest in the safe.. Took a little work, that I normally do though. Glass bedding, trigger adjustment, and freefloating the barrel. When I start on load development, we will really see how "inherently" accurate it is. Showing pretty good promise so far though..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jul 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I didn't know this would be such a controversial question, but I appreciate all the response. It's been interesting to follow. I guess I'll keep my '06 anyway. It's January on the 'fire, everything is controversial Seasons are over for a lot of us, boredom sets in, irritability skyrockets; hurry up Spring Turkey!
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad." ---------------------------------------------- "Jimmy, some of it's magic, Some of it's tragic, But I had a good life all the way." (Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
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Joined: Nov 2022
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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A 30-06 is accurate, a 308 is just more accurate. Anything you kill with either will be just as dead. "Minute of Elk" is 3"
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,114 Likes: 2 |
I didn't know this would be such a controversial question, but I appreciate all the response. It's been interesting to follow. I guess I'll keep my '06 anyway. It's January on the 'fire, everything is controversial Seasons are over for a lot of us, boredom sets in, irritability skyrockets; hurry up Spring Turkey! Ain't that the truth!
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Joined: Jul 2003
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Sorry I'm late to the party...I've just gotten done with reading through 21 pages of posts to see if anyone invoked Warren Page's article...no one did directly. Shame on you MuleDeer! Warren Page gained access to the Remington Custom Shop's test firing records for their ultra accurate 40-X's in it's various chamberings. This is for hundreds of rifles test fired under ideal conditions (same very experienced shooter, benched in a tunnel). Keep in mind that Remington had a reputation to uphold because they provided a 1/2" guarantee for certain calibers. Also keep in mind that Mike Walker was a serious benchrest competitor. Page's article provides a graph of average group size for each cartridge. The graph starts on the left with the 222 Rem averaging .363" and as the caliber increase, so does the group size...except the 308 Win which is an anomaly in the trend at just over a half inch. The 30-06 is the next largest cartridge and it shows a significant jump in group size at 0.768" Since others have mentioned the 30-06 for Highpower Rifle Competition, I'll offer that one of the longest standing records in the sport, the 1000pt aggregate was set by in 1968 by Eric England of the USMC shooting a 30-06 Win-M70 bolt gun; 998-45X. This record stood for over 4 decades through the rise of the 308. It took Sheri Gallagher of the USAMU shooting a TUBB-2000 in 260 Rem to beat it. Other's have mentioned German Salazar's work comparing the 308 and the 30-06 prone on the 600 yard NRA Highpower target. Other's have dismissed it as "meh" or BTDT. That speaks to "you don't know German". He had identical rifles built with different chamberings, and loaded them both to his extremely high standard. He then tested and competed with both over the course of many matches, rounds and months. At the end of the day, the two cartridges ended in a statistical dead heat. The NRA Highpower Target lacks resolution to separate accuracy between the two cartridges. These two examples are a testament to the skill of the shooters. But the 30-06 can certainly deliver on the NRA Highpower Target.
Last edited by ChrisF; 01/29/23.
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Joined: Sep 2013
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Campfire Ranger
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Thank you for taking the time. That was informative as hell.
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As I read through the 21 pages of posts, I jotted down notes on the ones I thought I had something to offer; I'll agree with the concept of "inherent accuracy" being mainly an academic debate. If a guy wanted to determine said proficiency he would have to assemble a dizzying array of absolutely identical barrels made for the same action in the same stock, of the same steel and contour, and calibers and chamberings absolutely conforming to SAAMI specs, and thoroughly test them all with another dizzying array of loadings under exactly the same weather/wind conditions off t he same bench at the the same time of day, ad nauseum. And what would all that prove? Nothing ...Remington used to do that...and Warren Page reported on it. See above. ok that i can believe that about rifle twist , so no one tries a 6 PPC at 600 yards with a different barrel twist ? or is also that fire forming Lapua 220 Russian case to make a 6 PPC is a pain too ? Someone did try the 6mm PPC at 600 yards. Scott Lindley from Montana built a PPC Space Gun and campaigned it across the course. He made NRA High Master with it but to my knowledge never won big with it. He shot 107 Sierra's (the best of the day) out of an appropriately twisted barrel out to 600 and 1K IIRC. I want to say he was getting 2500 or 2600 which was just a bit more than the 6x45 (223 necked up). Others improved the PPC case; Robert Whitley's 6mmAR and the 6mm RAT were similarly used by Space Gunners. But when freed up from the mag length limitation of the AR, folks shooting 6mm's inevitably went bigger...ie David Tubb and his 6XC.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Sorry I'm late to the party...I've just gotten done with reading through 21 pages of posts to see if anyone invoked Warren Page's article...no one did directly. Shame on you MuleDeer! . You're right, Chris! But I started getting pretty weary of this thread.... Might also mention that while I don't shoot much competition, do shoot a lot of prairie dogs. Have used the 6mm PPC out to around 550 yards--but the 6XC works pretty well out to at least 700, even in typical high-plains wind conditions.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Apr 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Thank you for taking the time. That was informative as hell. Very. Great reading.
Semper Fi
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Joined: Jul 2003
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But I started getting pretty weary of this thread.... Ahhh…winter cabin fever seems to always bring out a 308 vs 30-06 thread! I appreciated the opportunity to share about Eric England and German Salazar. If anyone wants to learn more about England, read “The Phantom of Phu Bai”. He was so much more than a Highpower shooter. More kills than Hathcock but without the publicity that Hathcock got. German Salazar did so much to share his knowledge (which I might add is still available in archived form if one was motivated to look beyond google.
Last edited by ChrisF; 01/30/23.
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Joined: Apr 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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But I started getting pretty weary of this thread.... Ahhh…winter cabin fever seems to always bring out a 308 vs 30-06 thread! I appreciated the opportunity to share about Eric England and German Salazar. If anyone wants to learn more about England, read “The Phantom of Phu Bai”. He was so much more than a Highpower shooter. More kills than Hathcock but without the publicity that Hathcock got. German Salazar did so much to share his knowledge (which I might add is still available in archived form if one was motivated to look beyond google. That’s for the heads up on England!
Semper Fi
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,874
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Chris, thanks for the information on Page, Salazar, and England. Good stuff.
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Joined: Apr 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,319 Likes: 3 |
But I started getting pretty weary of this thread.... Ahhh…winter cabin fever seems to always bring out a 308 vs 30-06 thread! I appreciated the opportunity to share about Eric England and German Salazar. If anyone wants to learn more about England, read “The Phantom of Phu Bai”. He was so much more than a Highpower shooter. More kills than Hathcock but without the publicity that Hathcock got. German Salazar did so much to share his knowledge (which I might add is still available in archived form if one was motivated to look beyond google. Just as a FYI, Englands book is 16 bucks on Amazon should anyone want a copy…
Semper Fi
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Joined: Mar 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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Last edited by 4th_point; 01/31/23.
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Campfire Regular
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I'm happy to see there's interest in Eric England's story. Amazing Marine...amazing man. That book had been out of print for a long time. I wanted to read it for a long time and even scoured the used book sites and ebay. I eventually settled on the ebook. A few months ago I saw it available in print, so I grabbed one. Who knows how long it will continue to be available in hard copy.
I don't want push this thread further off track, so to maintain the theme...Carlos Hathcock is probably the most famous Marine Sniper thanks to the book about him by Henderson (title "Marine Sniper"). He shot a 30-06. Two Marine Snipers who actually had more kills than Hathcock (kills don't tell the whole story of a scout sniper, but it's what get's talked about)l; Eric England who shot a 30-06, and Chuck Mawhinney who shot a 308 (7.62).
Last edited by ChrisF; 01/31/23.
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Chris- i shot here in arizona with German' he was amazing and meticulous in his shooting. if the 30-06 was legal in palma, Every record would be held by the 30-06.
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