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Joined: May 2011
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That's embarrassing. Historians have uncovered a memorandum in 1390 by Bishop Pierre d'Arcis, stating that the shroud was a fraud and he even knew the artist and how the shroud was painted. Odd that scripture would also omit mention of such an important "historical" piece of "evidence". Irrespective, a blood stained cloth would not prove a resurrection. These days we have bleeding Mary statues - the miracles continue (well, after someone refills the statues anyway). Well, this has surfaced before. I note that you seem to take the “memo” to be legit. The document you are referring to is unsigned, undated and certainly not corroborated by other outside and independent historians. Perhaps not even written by old Pierre…..bogus, yet you put some stock in it. Would you have us believe this document should be taken with some degree of seriousness? The gospels have much more corroboration than this…… That's a bit rich. The shroud came with no certificates, but you are okay with that, or even mention in the bible - you'd think that would add more credibility to the tale. The bible even says that Jesus was covered in strips of linen, with a separate cloth only covering his face, which would be normal for a Jewish burial at the time. Nothing about a bed sheet. You seem to have a comprehension issue…. What is a “bit rich?” I was not defending the shroud at all…. As usual, you missed the point. You missed the point. It's about double standards, unless you also dismiss the authenticity of the shroud. Feel free to dodge. Nope, I merely pointed out that a reference used by you to make a “point” was simply bogus. You are the one that chose not to address this objection and the went on about the shroud….. never mentioning that the Pierre d’Arcy doc is undated, unsigned and likely not even written…and perhaps not even composed by Pierre. You did try a weak attempt to “dodge” the issue….and then you say to me “Feel free to dodge” simply reveals that you are simply dishonest…. Also prone to “just dream up in substantiated baloney.” You'll need to debate that with the historians that say otherwise. With a plethora of reasons why the shroud is not what it is proclaimed to be, you are none too upset that there is nothing to support the claim and continue to remain silent in that regard. Sounds like a dodge to me.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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M9mm,
Believers desperately cling to the material shroud
cuz that's all they got in the absence of a Jesus
that won't show himself.
They will go to the extend of actually contradicting
scripture in regards to the description of burial cloth.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,808 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
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M9mm,
Believers desperately cling to the material shroud
cuz that's all they got in the absence of a Jesus
that won't show himself.
They will go to the extend of actually contradicting
scripture in regards to the description of burial cloth. A futile effort too, since it doesn't support a resurrection event in any way.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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A futile effort too, since it doesn't support a resurrection event in any way. True, linen cloth and empty tomb do not substantiate resurrection. If I saw an empty plot where I just buried someone, and then claim the corpse was running around town Id have a hell of a time trying to convince authorities.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,701 Likes: 47
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,701 Likes: 47 |
True, linen cloth and empty tomb do not
substantiate resurrection. Maybe not, but empty sure describes your head…
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Joined: May 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2008
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To believe that science and Christianity are in opposition is an infantile and incorrect grasp of Christianity or science…..for the vast amount of “Christians” anyway.
We’ve seen how unbiased, non-emotional and intellectually motivated “science” and the entire scientific community has been with “covid” and the “vaccine” lies these past 3 years. We’ve seen how those “men” of science were interested in all aspects of their ongoing struggle with covid and they welcomed debate amongst their colleagues…..never mind because that NEVER happened! The “science” was settled and there were no debates to be had, anybody that didn’t blindly and mutely fall in line were ruined or threatened with ruin. Some of those that didn’t buy the bullshit were stripped of their credentials and fired.
Is that the “science” you’re following? It’s ironic that from the very beginning science has been modified, revised, evolved and oftentimes it’s been just flat-out WRONG. Science once demanded that the world was flat but we’ve since learned that ain’t true. The glaring difference between one’s undying faith in science as the end of further religious debate is the fact that the Christian belief in our risen Lord, the story of his birth, death and life have remained unchanged in all these centuries while “scientific facts” have been changed, aborted and revised MANY MANY times.
If consistency is helpful in determining historical fact then science falls on its ass. Science and Christianity are hardly mutually exclusive nor are they at all at odds with one another. The failure and disconnect is in man’s inability to grasp complex supernatural occurrences. When one says something to the effect of “I don’t believe in ____ because I’ve yet to see ______ and at 78 years old I’ve been everywhere and I ain’t never seen ______ so if I can’t see it that proves it ain’t true”….that type of myopic “thinking” screams to me that person is intentionally or unintentionally putting themselves on the altar of “Godly knowledge” which is no place for us mortals to be messing around in. There is much we don’t know and I’m ok with that. I hope I never get to the point where I think that if I haven’t seen it then it’s obviously a lie because I’m so awesome that I’ve seen everything. 😂
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
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~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Doubters Have been around since B4 Noah. Some come to faith early in life & others come to faith late in life like The apostle Paul. God's Grace is amazing. Open your ears, open your hearts & take in the word. Open the bible or search on line . The options to embrace the wonderful message is wide & varied. If you have not yet, Let the light shine in.
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control
& Proverbs 21:19
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To doubt and question fantastic claims that are made without the support of evidence is good thing.
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Joined: May 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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Doubters Have been around since B4 Noah. Some come to faith early in life & others come to faith late in life like The apostle Paul. God's Grace is amazing. Open your ears, open your hearts & take in the word. Open the bible or search on line . The options to embrace the wonderful message is wide & varied. If you have not yet, Let the light shine in. Osiris pulled off the resurrection stunt thousands of years before Jesus, and he even got his wife pregnant after she reassembled him - what a champ!
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The failure and disconnect is in man’s inability to grasp complex supernatural occurrences. Pre Xtianity Pagans described alleged supernatural occurrences which they attributed to their list of g0ds.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,585 Likes: 22
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2008
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The failure and disconnect is in man’s inability to grasp complex supernatural occurrences. Pre Xtianity Pagans described alleged supernatural occurrences which they attributed to their list of g0ds. Cool story bruh….
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
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~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The failure and disconnect is in man’s inability to grasp complex supernatural occurrences. Pre Xtianity Pagans described alleged supernatural occurrences which they attributed to their list of g0ds. Cool story bruh…. No more or less believable than your fan -fiction tall tale Gospels.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
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The New Testament writers would have nothing to gain by making up a resurrected Jesus. They were all Jewish believers in Yahweh, and they had everything to lose by saying that Jesus had risen from the dead…not everything to gain…! They got excommunicated from the synagogue, and then they got beaten and tortured and killed. That’s not a list of perks…!
So they had everything to lose by saying that Jesus rose from the dead, but they said He rose from the dead anyway, and then many of em’ ended up dying for it when they coulda just said, “hey don’t kill me dude’s, we’re just makin’ this stuff up.” So even though there were non-Christian writers attesting to the historicity and reality of Jesus, I think the most persuasive people were the Jewish eyewitnesses who said they’d never seen anything like this ~ that a man who claimed to be God could be killed before them and then rise from the dead, and they saw Him alive afterwards ~ and they knew it firsthand and were willing to die for it. They were the people who had everything to lose…and they’re saying it’s true anyway…so they’re worth believing.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Outfitter
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~ that a man who claimed to be God could be killed before them and then rise from the dead, and they saw Him alive afterwards ~ and they knew it firsthand and were willing to die for it. . No first hand accounts exist of the resurrection.So you get no points with that. It's like saying; one's work colleagues neighbors uncles best friend says he saw what he thinks was Bigfoot 40 yrs ago. ~. They were the people who had everything to lose…. Scripture says Martyrs were allegedly promised heavenly reward and the crown of life, (although No evidence to suggest they got it)...so why would you consider that 'losing everything'..? I thought it would be everything an Xtian dreamed of receiving. Anyway, doesnt your Jesus decide who the Martyrs will be?.Not exactly a free will choice.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,585 Likes: 22
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Great post antlers! Truths that will be denied and left unaddressed.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
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~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Antler's argument is contra to what scripture says
about Martyr rewards ..why deny your own scripture?
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,585 Likes: 22
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,585 Likes: 22 |
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
---------------------------------------------------------
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Ok so the NT scripture is false and Antlers is your new g0d.
Revelation 2:10
"Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about
to throw some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you
will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give
you the crown of life."
John 15:19
"If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own;
but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world,
because of this the world hates you."
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,585 Likes: 22
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,585 Likes: 22 |
Lolol….😂
I love it when you dipshits quote the very book you’re condemning. If nothing else you girls are consistent, consistently wrong and perpetually retarded. Congrats?
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
---------------------------------------------------------
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,379
Campfire Regular
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~ that a man who claimed to be God could be killed before them and then rise from the dead, and they saw Him alive afterwards ~ and they knew it firsthand and were willing to die for it. . No first hand accounts exist of the resurrection.So you get no points with that. It's like saying; one's work colleagues neighbors uncles best friend says he saw what he thinks was Bigfoot 40 yrs ago. ~. They were the people who had everything to lose…. Scripture says Martyrs were allegedly promised heavenly reward and the crown of life, (although No evidence to suggest they got it)...so why would you consider that 'losing everything'..? I thought it would be everything an Xtian dreamed of receiving. Anyway, doesnt your Jesus decide who the Martyrs will be?.Not exactly a free will choice. People saw him die on the cross, be buried in a tomb, then walking around with scars in his side and hands. How is this not evidence of a resurrection?
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