I'm carrying a G19 with a Holosun 507C, had to trim out maybe a 1/4' off a kydex IWB holster, can't tell the difference carrying it or my iron sighted G19.
Can't think of any cons, I change the battery on my birthday, it's never let me down but I have BUIS's if it ever did. Oh I might have to brush the lint or dust out of the window every now and then but it never gets to dirty to see through.
The benefits of shooting more accurately in any lighting condition and being able to see the whole room instead of just the front sight far outweigh any negative I can think of. At first I was slightly faster to the first shot with irons but I stuck with it, took some advice/tips from a friend and stuck with it till it's second nature.
I would say that the biggest con is you really need to put in the time to ensure you can reliably pick up the dot when you present. That's really more of a consideration than a con in actuality.
anybody doing it? what are the thoughts pro's and con's.......bob
IMO, when it comes to ordinary concealed carry, the cons outweigh the potential pros. It's over complicating something which is better kept simple.
On a fighting carbine, the scales may balance in favor of their use.
I don't see any cons that are worthy of concern. I have backup irons on both of mine and I love the RDS in any lighting condition. They improve the aiming g consistency for old eyes for certain and are the quickest sighting system for your carry weapon as lo g as you practice acquiring the sight picture instantly and are perfect for night time use
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Pros, it might be more accurate for you. Cons, it's slightly heavier and bulkier and could fail and requires a suitable holster.
Weight-wise these are incredibly light. The original Trijicon RMR seems a bit bulky, but the newer 'micro' RDS's (Shield RMSc, Sig Romeo Zero, etc.) are tiny. Co-witness iron sights are a good idea with any electronic sight, in case of a failure. Finding a suitable holster 'was' an issue early on, now it seems 'most' maker's have that covered.
Originally Posted by RufusG
I would say that the biggest con is you really need to put in the time to ensure you can reliably pick up the dot when you present. That's really more of a consideration than a con in actuality.
With irons that co-witness, I don't think this is a problem. However, I had one on a pistol that had no iron sights (a Ruger 22LR pistol) and even finding the dot was difficult when first starting out.
Regarding more accurate, I just had one out on a 22LR pistol yesterday, With all of the years practice I've had with iron sights... it's rather disappointing how much better I can shoot with a Micro red dot.
As far as finding the dot, my limited experience is that what Bluedreaux has to say about it is exactly correct. I'm not going to try to quote or even paraphrase. It shouldn't take long to find his comments on the subject here.
As far as finding the dot, my limited experience is that what Bluedreaux has to say about it is exactly correct. I'm not going to try to quote or even paraphrase. It shouldn't take long to find his comments on the subject here.
freeme...I searched for this type of discussion before I posted....couldn't find anything but I will try again....bob
I would say that the biggest con is you really need to put in the time to ensure you can reliably pick up the dot when you present. That's really more of a consideration than a con in actuality.
It is the same with the iron sights, if you find the irons instantly on presentation then the DOT will there as well.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I shot my carry gun (M&P 2.0 Compact with a DPP) yesterday in a training class.
The front sight nearly slid out of the dovetail, again, and I had to beat it back in place with a flashlight so it wouldn't fall off and get lost. That happens every hundred rounds or so, even after I've tried staking it in place by peening the dovetail down around it. If you shoot enough you'll see plenty of iron sights fail, too.
If everyone would quit buying cheap dots the whole failure thing wouldn't be an issue.
I shot my carry gun (M&P 2.0 Compact with a DPP) yesterday in a training class.
The front sight nearly slid out of the dovetail, again, and I had to beat it back in place with a flashlight so it wouldn't fall off and get lost. That happens every hundred rounds or so, even after I've tried staking it in place by peening the dovetail down around it. If you shoot enough you'll see plenty of iron sights fail, too.
If everyone would quit buying cheap dots the whole failure thing wouldn't be an issue.
what are some that you like that will hold up?....not looking for cheap willing to pay for quality......bob
As far as finding the dot, my limited experience is that what Bluedreaux has to say about it is exactly correct. I'm not going to try to quote or even paraphrase. It shouldn't take long to find his comments on the subject here.
This?
I'd add that the key to finding the dot is proper head position (second quote below) and initial presentation of the pistol. Establish a two hand grip as early as possible, preferably as soon as it clears the holster. Present the pistol in a straight (diagonal) line from the holster to extension. Don't bring it to your center line and push it out. Don't "punch" it out. Just lift it to your line of sight. It should be horizontal, parallel to the ground, before it's lifted all the way to your line of sight.
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
I stand straight upright, chin parallel to the ground. Just like a normal standing person. Then clap your hands together in front of you, like your trying to catch a bug. Both arms are slightly bent and not hyper extended. They're both evenly extended. Then put a gun in them. Then, without moving your head or scrunching anything up in your neck or shoulders, just lift the gun up until you're looking at the sights.
I hold the gun with my hands and wrists. Everything else (biceps, shoulders, back) are relaxed except for the tension needed to suspend the weight of the pistol in front of me.
Stance (foot position and any slight lean) are dictated by how you might need to fight or move. They have nothing to do with the very minor recoil of a handgun.
If everyone would quit buying cheap dots the whole failure thing wouldn't be an issue.
I think cheap dots are great. But I don't have one on a handgun yet. I now have 2 of the Sig Romeo 5s on rifles. Can't see it getting too much better.
I've only got one handgun that came ready to accept the RDS. I've only had it since august and am enjoying it the way it came. But I expect it'll eventually wear the dot. A knowledgeable friend tells me that I'm limited by footprint of the cut-out on the P365X as to what I can readily mount.
The Romeo Zero stands out as a likely candidate, in my mind, simply because of my experience with the Romeo5.
In a sort of backhanded rebuttal of TRH's complication vs simplicity remarks, I'd say that even if newer and advanced technology is used, there is no simpler sighting system than a dot sight. It puts the alignment of front and rear sights in the same light as the use of the bronze sword.
I’ve seen a lot of people transition from irons to dots, (Edited To Add...at this point several hundred people), of varying age, vision, and shooting ability. I’ve also now seen many shooters start out directly with dots.
With proper instruction they have all, all, been as fast up close and more accurate at long distance (50 yards as an example).
The biggest improvement is in the 15-30 yard range. Hitting reasonable size targets at speed is hard and anybody who disagrees is welcome to post up targets with times. Those previously hard shots become very obtainable.
Dots have essentially doubled my pistol engagement distance with no downside up close.
The key is seeking out the proper presentation technique. But if you’re not willing to do that then you’re probably not willing to purchase a quality dot or keep up with battery life or maintain the skills you acquired.
And that’s fine, iron sights still work. But it’s undeniable that they work as well for someone willing to learn something new.
wasn't so long ago a lot of proponents of concealed carry would always say you need smooth lines no sharp edges hammerless revolvers.. now we're sticking a big old awkward Red Dot up on it to snag on everything. not saying necessarily they're bad I'm just saying it's kind of odd the same people preach that 10 years apart
A lot of people have mentioned "keeping it simple".
Remember, the goal is not to just possess a simple pistol. The goal is to have a reliable, repeatable, simple shooting process and if you want to keep it simple, I can think of no greater benefit than eliminating sight alignment and sight picture during the shot process.
1-See target and present the pistol. 2-Subconsciously know what level of sight alignment is necessary for the shot difficulty presented. 3-Obtain that level of sight alignment. 4-Verify the proper sight alignment is at the correct place on the target. 5-Subconsciously know where your visual focus needs to be for the shot difficulty presented. 6-Shift visits focus as needed…..Sometimes this will require you to stop looking at the thing that wants to kill you.
Or…. 1-See target and present pistol. 2-See red dot on target.
wasn't so long ago a lot of proponents of concealed carry would always say you need smooth lines no sharp edges hammerless revolvers.. now we're sticking a big old awkward Red Dot up on it to snag on everything. not saying necessarily they're bad I'm just saying it's kind of odd the same people preach that 10 years apart
Have you ever had one snag on clothing during the draw?
I shot my carry gun (M&P 2.0 Compact with a DPP) yesterday in a training class.
The front sight nearly slid out of the dovetail, again, and I had to beat it back in place with a flashlight so it wouldn't fall off and get lost. That happens every hundred rounds or so, even after I've tried staking it in place by peening the dovetail down around it. If you shoot enough you'll see plenty of iron sights fail, too.
If everyone would quit buying cheap dots the whole failure thing wouldn't be an issue.
what are some that you like that will hold up?....not looking for cheap willing to pay for quality......bob
The new Leupold DPPs seem to be good (but the illumination controls are awkward), the Trijicons are good (but make sure you can manually adjust the brightness), and the Aimpoint P2 is exceptiona (but prints more than any of the others).
wasn't so long ago a lot of proponents of concealed carry would always say you need smooth lines no sharp edges hammerless revolvers.. now we're sticking a big old awkward Red Dot up on it to snag on everything. not saying necessarily they're bad I'm just saying it's kind of odd the same people preach that 10 years apart
Have you ever had one snag on clothing during the draw?
no, nor have I have i felt the the need to Bob hammers smooth and dehorn on any weapon I've carried.. reread how I worded that
IMO reflex sights are great for range guns and distance shooting. In my experience they are more accurate than iron sights and I have them on several pistols, BUT my EDC pistols wear tritium night sights and by nightstand pistol has a streamlight TLR8 laser and flashlight on it.
In most cases having to use an EDC pistol is measured in feet not yards. I don't need or use a reflex sight for that distance.
Curious as to how much the dot sight gets in the way when clearing malfunctions. Keep mind I've never shot with one, it seems like it would be awkward clearing stove pipes, working a tap/rack/bang, clearing jams etc. Much different than with iron sights alone, when that Oh Sheit! moment comes?
Last edited by SBTCO; 02/07/23.
“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.” ― G. Orwell
"Why can't men kill big game with the same cartridges women and kids use?" _Eileen Clarke
"Unjust authority confers no obligation of obedience." - Alexander Hamilton
As Blue said…you end up giving up nothing up close, and most assuredly gain for farther away. Win-win. If you’re sound in the mechanics of draw and presentation, you will pick up the dot/circle as you would your sights, or technically as one with your sights if co-witnessed. As for draw snags, if you clear the clothing properly on the pre-draw motion, it should not be an issue. Put the work in first before trusting your life to it. As an added thought, and hopefully you’d never need to, but the RMR style sights give you a great area to use for slide racking if God forbid, you’re down to one usable hand in a situation. I see no drawback to weapon clearing/manipulation with an RMR sight, at least for the two I run anyway. (Shield RMSc and Holosun 507k x2) To each their own though.😎
Plus it's not a part of the gun that prints in CC. I personally don't see a down side to it other than it adds another level of possible failure but that can be reduced by choice, practice and maintenance.
And speaking of stupid, for you guys that refuse to use a dot on a carry pistol, how many rounds, if any have you fired with a dot on your gun?
I went back and forth till it finally clicked, now I won’t buy a pistol that won’t take a dot. Picked up a Gen 5 G21 MOS yesterday. It might or might not be a CC pistol but it’ll have a dot on it before long.
Not a good idea with a Holosun 407. You can easily turn the dot off by pressing the + and - button simultaneously with a finger.
Not on a 507 K or C
I did it one time with a 507K X2. I then put it in lock mode so that doesn't happen. It also means you can't adjust the brightness without first unlocking it. I then went to the 407K X2 for the bigger dot so I can find one setting and leave it on that. With that said, it's not the problem that TRH makes it out to be.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
As far as finding the dot, my limited experience is that what Bluedreaux has to say about it is exactly correct. I'm not going to try to quote or even paraphrase. It shouldn't take long to find his comments on the subject here.
This?
I'd add that the key to finding the dot is proper head position (second quote below) and initial presentation of the pistol. Establish a two hand grip as early as possible, preferably as soon as it clears the holster. Present the pistol in a straight (diagonal) line from the holster to extension. Don't bring it to your center line and push it out. Don't "punch" it out. Just lift it to your line of sight. It should be horizontal, parallel to the ground, before it's lifted all the way to your line of sight.
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
I stand straight upright, chin parallel to the ground. Just like a normal standing person. Then clap your hands together in front of you, like your trying to catch a bug. Both arms are slightly bent and not hyper extended. They're both evenly extended. Then put a gun in them. Then, without moving your head or scrunching anything up in your neck or shoulders, just lift the gun up until you're looking at the sights.
I hold the gun with my hands and wrists. Everything else (biceps, shoulders, back) are relaxed except for the tension needed to suspend the weight of the pistol in front of me.
Stance (foot position and any slight lean) are dictated by how you might need to fight or move. They have nothing to do with the very minor recoil of a handgun.
Yes, that. Didn't mean to put you on the spot, but I knew I couldn't describe it like you did. That made all the difference for me.
Not a good idea with a Holosun 407. You can easily turn the dot off by pressing the + and - button simultaneously with a finger.
Not on a 507 K or C
I did it one time with a 507K X2. I then put it in lock mode so that doesn't happen. It also means you can't adjust the brightness without first unlocking it. I then went to the 407K X2 for the bigger dot so I can find one setting and leave it on that. With that said, it's not the problem that TRH makes it out to be.
I've been using a 507C & K for better than 2 years even sleep and laying on the pistol and optic and I've never experienced the problem that you describe.
I never lock it as want to be able to adjust the brightness as needed instantly and have never experienced the problem as described
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Here's my Springfield XDM Elite Compact 9mm, with a Holosun 507 sight, in an Urban Carry IWB holster. This sight comes with choices of reticles- I use the default dot and circle, which I find to be very quick and easy to acquire. This combo is the most accurate carry gun I own. I really like this holster, after carrying for about a year, it is leather, but has a positive retention feature and completely encloses the trigger.
I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....
Tried it once on a M&P full size 40, and didn't care for it. The slide is not milled. I had to remove rear sight, and use an adapter plate. If it were milled out getting the optic lower I'd try it again. I don't really want or need another pistol though. I've seen where others have drilled the white dot out of their front sight, then recessed the top out for fiber optic rod. I did this on my shield 9mm the other day, and blacked out rear dots. Gives me a good sight picture as long as there's a little light. Those s&w front sights are really in there. Brass punch won't budge them.
Not on my carry gun yet since I haven't mastered their use for fast shooting but am bound and determined to get good with them. Have had Burris Fastfires on my Ruger Mark III and IV pistols for a while now but those are for deliberate aimed fire.
A little while ago I bought a 5" barreled M&P 2.0 Pro Series model and mounted a spare Fastfire on it to familiarize myself with its use. Today I plunked down my money for an M&P 2.0 4.25" optics ready version. At some point I'll probably get a Holosun for both of them, maybe a Vortex Venom or a Leupold DPP for the 5" model but that's a decision for later.
As noted above, beyond about 15 yards is where you really tell the difference in accuracy. With open sights at 25 yards I can keep a 4" group but it's about 5-6" high. Its not the sights but my eyes, they're old and the front sight gets blurred. With the new Pro Series mounting a reflex sight and taking deliberate aim, the shots are right on the target center and groups stay within about 3". Not world class shooting but the win goes to the optics.
Up close - 7 to 10 yards - is where they are still a problem for me. With an open sighted pistol the barrel itself is the reference, not necessarily the sights. It's like a big fat finger in my peripheral vision and I can be on target and shooting accurately before the sights even line up. The optic sight obscures the forward portion of the slide and I find myself searching for the dot so it slows me up considerably. That's even with the dot in the view window as the pistol comes up; I'm looking to make sure it's where it should be before letting off the shot, whereas with open sights the first shot would already be down range. Since it's a more precise aiming reference my instinct is to aim more precisely before firing.
Basically I learned to point shoot a long time ago as a kid and am pretty good at it, and it's a skill I don't want to lose while still melding use of the dot into the repertoire.
I understand it's just a matter of training which is why my 9mm ammo budget is going up considerably for the foreseeable future.
Fwiw, I recently bought a Hillary hole Model 67-5 .38 Spl., something I wouldn't have even considered a while ago, just because it's d&t and can easily take a red dot mount. I'm sold on them.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery. Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
My Sig P365XL in a We the People kydex IWB holster. I wear a KORE Essentials belt which is rigid and keeps the pistol in place. This is my Church gun. Accurate and plenty of capacity (15 rounder in my off side pocket). It now has a Holosun 507K on top.
Ron
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. Orwell
I wanted a red dot forever because I thought I'd love it. Finally got one and put it on a Glock 40. I just can't warm up to it. Hats off to anyone that can afford to put in enough time and money to get fast with one, because it ain't me.
I'd personally never put one on a serious carry gun. The added accuracy potential doesn't make up for the slower target acquisition in my book. Give me a laser instead.
I wanted a red dot forever because I thought I'd love it. Finally got one and put it on a Glock 40. I just can't warm up to it. Hats off to anyone that can afford to put in enough time and money to get fast with one, because it ain't me.
I'd personally never put one on a serious carry gun. The added accuracy potential doesn't make up for the slower target acquisition in my book. Give me a laser instead.
There is no cost to learn how to acquire the DOT fast, it is all about presentation and that can be learned without firing a shot. If you can't find the FOT then you aren't aligned with your sights.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I wanted a red dot forever because I thought I'd love it. Finally got one and put it on a Glock 40. I just can't warm up to it. Hats off to anyone that can afford to put in enough time and money to get fast with one, because it ain't me.
I'd personally never put one on a serious carry gun. The added accuracy potential doesn't make up for the slower target acquisition in my book. Give me a laser instead.
There is no cost to learn how to acquire the DOT fast, it is all about presentation and that can be learned without firing a shot. If you can't find the FOT then you aren't aligned with your sights.
Perfect presentation and sight alignment are fine goals however real world situations don't always allow for it.
I wanted a red dot forever because I thought I'd love it. Finally got one and put it on a Glock 40. I just can't warm up to it. Hats off to anyone that can afford to put in enough time and money to get fast with one, because it ain't me.
I'd personally never put one on a serious carry gun. The added accuracy potential doesn't make up for the slower target acquisition in my book. Give me a laser instead.
There is no cost to learn how to acquire the DOT fast, it is all about presentation and that can be learned without firing a shot. If you can't find the FOT then you aren't aligned with your sights.
Perfect presentation and sight alignment are fine goals however real world situations don't always allow for it.
Here we go again. Cue the circular reasoning music....
I wanted a red dot forever because I thought I'd love it. Finally got one and put it on a Glock 40. I just can't warm up to it. Hats off to anyone that can afford to put in enough time and money to get fast with one, because it ain't me.
I'd personally never put one on a serious carry gun. The added accuracy potential doesn't make up for the slower target acquisition in my book. Give me a laser instead.
There is no cost to learn how to acquire the DOT fast, it is all about presentation and that can be learned without firing a shot. If you can't find the FOT then you aren't aligned with your sights.
Perfect presentation and sight alignment are fine goals however real world situations don't always allow for it.
Here we go again. Cue the circular reasoning music....
My reasoning tells me that if you must practice MORE with a red dot to reach the same level of competency with iron sights then a red dot is in fact less intuitive and more difficult to use.
If you can reach that level then more power to you but acting like red dots are the best thing since sliced bread and every handgun needs one just because they're the "IN" thing right now is asinine. They have their place and their limitations.
Not correct. With the proper presentation, the red dot simply gets in the way of the target. That's not a bad thing. Unless you are running some low tier crap on your pistol.
Not correct. With the proper presentation, the red dot simply gets in the way of the target. That's not a bad thing. Unless you are running some low tier crap on your pistol.
I'd say not being able to see the target is a bad thing.
I wanted a red dot forever because I thought I'd love it. Finally got one and put it on a Glock 40. I just can't warm up to it. Hats off to anyone that can afford to put in enough time and money to get fast with one, because it ain't me.
I'd personally never put one on a serious carry gun. The added accuracy potential doesn't make up for the slower target acquisition in my book. Give me a laser instead.
There is no cost to learn how to acquire the DOT fast, it is all about presentation and that can be learned without firing a shot. If you can't find the FOT then you aren't aligned with your sights.
Perfect presentation and sight alignment are fine goals however real world situations don't always allow for it.
Then you are going to miss any fast needed fire. Real world dies allow for it and this can be proven just go to a major competition and the fastest shooters will be using DOTs.
Your grip must be consistent as well as consistent presentation to aquire the sights or DOT quickly
Last edited by jwp475; 02/10/23.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I wanted a red dot forever because I thought I'd love it. Finally got one and put it on a Glock 40. I just can't warm up to it. Hats off to anyone that can afford to put in enough time and money to get fast with one, because it ain't me.
I'd personally never put one on a serious carry gun. The added accuracy potential doesn't make up for the slower target acquisition in my book. Give me a laser instead.
There is no cost to learn how to acquire the DOT fast, it is all about presentation and that can be learned without firing a shot. If you can't find the FOT then you aren't aligned with your sights.
Perfect presentation and sight alignment are fine goals however real world situations don't always allow for it.
Then you are going to miss any fast needed fire. Real world dies allow for it and this can be proven just go to a major competition and the fastest shooters will be using DOTs.
Your grip must be consistent as well as consistent presentation to aquire the sights or DOT quickly
Real world self defense shootings don't take place on IDPA ranges.
I wanted a red dot forever because I thought I'd love it. Finally got one and put it on a Glock 40. I just can't warm up to it. Hats off to anyone that can afford to put in enough time and money to get fast with one, because it ain't me.
I'd personally never put one on a serious carry gun. The added accuracy potential doesn't make up for the slower target acquisition in my book. Give me a laser instead.
There is no cost to learn how to acquire the DOT fast, it is all about presentation and that can be learned without firing a shot. If you can't find the FOT then you aren't aligned with your sights.
Perfect presentation and sight alignment are fine goals however real world situations don't always allow for it.
Then you are going to miss any fast needed fire. Real world dies allow for it and this can be proven just go to a major competition and the fastest shooters will be using DOTs.
Your grip must be consistent as well as consistent presentation to aquire the sights or DOT quickly
Real world self defense shootings don't take place on IDPA ranges.
Why is that? Not many if any at the police station either? Do you have a point are do you get off on posting BS
Last edited by jwp475; 02/10/23.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I wanted a red dot forever because I thought I'd love it. Finally got one and put it on a Glock 40. I just can't warm up to it. Hats off to anyone that can afford to put in enough time and money to get fast with one, because it ain't me.
I'd personally never put one on a serious carry gun. The added accuracy potential doesn't make up for the slower target acquisition in my book. Give me a laser instead.
There is no cost to learn how to acquire the DOT fast, it is all about presentation and that can be learned without firing a shot. If you can't find the FOT then you aren't aligned with your sights.
Perfect presentation and sight alignment are fine goals however real world situations don't always allow for it.
Then you are going to miss any fast needed fire. Real world dies allow for it and this can be proven just go to a major competition and the fastest shooters will be using DOTs.
Your grip must be consistent as well as consistent presentation to aquire the sights or DOT quickly
Real world self defense shootings don't take place on IDPA ranges.
Why is that? Not many if any at the police station either? Do you have a point are do you get off on posting BS
Red dots have been big with the race gun crowd since the 90's at least. No one is arguing they don't work. Do they work as well or better than iron sights on a carry gun? That is the question. It's for each individual to decide for themselves.
Red dots on handguns are faster and more accurate than irons. The gap between them gets larger the further you are from the target.
The data is there.
But, the bottom line is taking advantage of the edge in speed and accuracy that a dot gives you require solid fundamentals. The advantage of a red dot on a handgun is icing on the cake.
Most people don't have the cake.
The best part is I remember this exact debate regarding irons on rifles. The "muh I qualified at Pendleton out to 500 meters with irons, it's better than an optic" crowd was huge.
I was in that crowd.
I won't make that mistake twice.
All that said, if you don't have a fundamentally sound presentation, and you're not inclined to practice, sick with what you've got.
My reasoning tells me that if you must practice MORE with a red dot to reach the same level of competency with iron sights then a red dot is in fact less intuitive and more difficult to use.
If you can reach that level then more power to you but acting like red dots are the best thing since sliced bread and every handgun needs one just because they're the "IN" thing right now is asinine. They have their place and their limitations.
Your reasoning, or at least your conclusion, is flawed. You're not reaching an equivalent level of competency.
What you are really saying is that iron sights make it easier to cover up the deficiencies in your skill set. But if you're fine with that, run with it.
It’s frustrating to know how little formal instruction it takes to “get it” when it come to acquiring a dot during the draw, and to see so many people fail at it.
It’s understandable. People don’t know what they don’t know. The first time I tried a dot I hated it. But I went and found the people who did know and asked questions amd was willing to be the guy who didn’t know it all. If you’re willing to learn, and have someone who knows what to tell you, they’re really not that difficult at all.
It’s frustrating to know how little formal instruction it takes to “get it” when it come to acquiring a dot during the draw, and to see so many people fail at it.
It’s understandable. People don’t know what they don’t know. The first time I tried a dot I hated it. But I went and found the people who did know and asked questions amd was willing to be the guy who didn’t know it all. If you’re willing to learn, and have someone who knows what to tell you, they’re really not that difficult at all.
Thank you for making my point for me. Irons are simpler and easier for most average people to become proficient with.
However that clearly doesn't apply to the high speed low drag operators here on the fire.
Not correct. With the proper presentation, the red dot simply gets in the way of the target. That's not a bad thing. Unless you are running some low tier crap on your pistol.
I'd say not being able to see the target is a bad thing.
It is a great feeling to know where that dot lands is where that round lands.
I have a friend that teaches a red dot course for his LE agency. He told me that most officers come in thinking the dot is not for them but by the end of the course, they have all become converts.
Heck I went back and forth for a couple of years and used a similar excuse, “I’m faster to the first shot with irons.” Took some advice, put it in place and stuck with the dot.
It’s frustrating to know how little formal instruction it takes to “get it” when it come to acquiring a dot during the draw, and to see so many people fail at it.
It’s understandable. People don’t know what they don’t know. The first time I tried a dot I hated it. But I went and found the people who did know and asked questions amd was willing to be the guy who didn’t know it all. If you’re willing to learn, and have someone who knows what to tell you, they’re really not that difficult at all.
Thank you for making my point for me. Irons are simpler and easier for most average people to become proficient with.
However that clearly doesn't apply to the high speed low drag operators here on the fire.
He not saying that.
But red dots and poor fundamentals don't get along well. So, I guess you could say that it's easier to hide crappy fundamentals with irons.
Irons are easier for people to *think* they’re proficient. They’re incredibly harder to use correctly, but most people never shoot to a standard difficult enough for them to know how bad they are.
(Cue the “most self defense shootings occur at bad breath distance” club)
I may have missed this point in the previous pages, if somebody already mentioned it I apologize.
The older I got, the harder it got to focus and properly obtain a good sight picture with iron sights, both with handgun and longun past 20 yds or so. An optic solved that for me.
I wanted a red dot forever because I thought I'd love it. Finally got one and put it on a Glock 40. I just can't warm up to it. Hats off to anyone that can afford to put in enough time and money to get fast with one, because it ain't me.
I'd personally never put one on a serious carry gun. The added accuracy potential doesn't make up for the slower target acquisition in my book. Give me a laser instead.
There is no cost to learn how to acquire the DOT fast, it is all about presentation and that can be learned without firing a shot. If you can't find the FOT then you aren't aligned with your sights.
This... practice without bullets is cheap and effective.
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they went" Will Rogers
I went to a red dot because my eyes couldn’t see the irons well, extremely fuzzy in good light and hard to see in lower light period. I wear readers. I didn’t want to have to wear glasses or contacts to shoot Accurately. The red dot solved that problem very well but you have to put in the work to get familiar with it.
Trijicon RMRcc with 6.5MOA dot
When carrying, I’ve never noticed that I’m carrying an rmr. I think it weighs 1-2oz and my slide cut is low so I don’t even need suppressor height sights to co-witness.
The dot does take some time to acquire effectively, quickly. Practicing at the range and practicing my presentation at home has helped a ton.
The best reticle to get for this (which trijicon doesn’t offer), is the acss Vulcan …. The large circle disappears when centered but when presented off-axis provides a quick way to identify where the dot is and how to get it centered
If everyone would quit buying cheap dots the whole failure thing wouldn't be an issue.
I think cheap dots are great. But I don't have one on a handgun yet. I now have 2 of the Sig Romeo 5s on rifles. Can't see it getting too much better.
I've only got one handgun that came ready to accept the RDS. I've only had it since august and am enjoying it the way it came. But I expect it'll eventually wear the dot. A knowledgeable friend tells me that I'm limited by footprint of the cut-out on the P365X as to what I can readily mount.
The Romeo Zero stands out as a likely candidate, in my mind, simply because of my experience with the Romeo5.
In a sort of backhanded rebuttal of TRH's complication vs simplicity remarks, I'd say that even if newer and advanced technology is used, there is no simpler sighting system than a dot sight. It puts the alignment of front and rear sights in the same light as the use of the bronze sword.
And after reading reviews of the Romeo Zero, I gotta reconsider. Seems the polymer frame can flex when mounting screws are snugged and it's sometimes enough to make it difficult or impossible to zero.
Next option looks like the Holosun 407K/507K X2. Does anyone with the 507K X2 use the circle dot reticle? I gotta think that the bigger dot of the 407K X2 would be easier to pick up and hit with. But I'd like opinions on that before I send money...
If everyone would quit buying cheap dots the whole failure thing wouldn't be an issue.
I think cheap dots are great. But I don't have one on a handgun yet. I now have 2 of the Sig Romeo 5s on rifles. Can't see it getting too much better.
I've only got one handgun that came ready to accept the RDS. I've only had it since august and am enjoying it the way it came. But I expect it'll eventually wear the dot. A knowledgeable friend tells me that I'm limited by footprint of the cut-out on the P365X as to what I can readily mount.
The Romeo Zero stands out as a likely candidate, in my mind, simply because of my experience with the Romeo5.
In a sort of backhanded rebuttal of TRH's complication vs simplicity remarks, I'd say that even if newer and advanced technology is used, there is no simpler sighting system than a dot sight. It puts the alignment of front and rear sights in the same light as the use of the bronze sword.
And after reading reviews of the Romeo Zero, I gotta reconsider. Seems the polymer frame can flex when mounting screws are snugged and it's sometimes enough to make it difficult or impossible to zero.
Next option looks like the Holosun 407K/507K X2. Does anyone with the 507K X2 use the circle dot reticle? I gotta think that the bigger dot of the 407K X2 would be easier to pick up and hit with. But I'd like opinions on that before I send money...
I have a green dot 407k x2 on my Shield+ that I love.
If everyone would quit buying cheap dots the whole failure thing wouldn't be an issue.
I think cheap dots are great. But I don't have one on a handgun yet. I now have 2 of the Sig Romeo 5s on rifles. Can't see it getting too much better.
I've only got one handgun that came ready to accept the RDS. I've only had it since august and am enjoying it the way it came. But I expect it'll eventually wear the dot. A knowledgeable friend tells me that I'm limited by footprint of the cut-out on the P365X as to what I can readily mount.
The Romeo Zero stands out as a likely candidate, in my mind, simply because of my experience with the Romeo5.
In a sort of backhanded rebuttal of TRH's complication vs simplicity remarks, I'd say that even if newer and advanced technology is used, there is no simpler sighting system than a dot sight. It puts the alignment of front and rear sights in the same light as the use of the bronze sword.
And after reading reviews of the Romeo Zero, I gotta reconsider. Seems the polymer frame can flex when mounting screws are snugged and it's sometimes enough to make it difficult or impossible to zero.
Next option looks like the Holosun 407K/507K X2. Does anyone with the 507K X2 use the circle dot reticle? I gotta think that the bigger dot of the 407K X2 would be easier to pick up and hit with. But I'd like opinions on that before I send money...
I have the 507K on my Sig P-365XL and the 507C on my EDM-ELITE with the Circle DOT and I love them
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Next option looks like the Holosun 407K/507K X2. Does anyone with the 507K X2 use the circle dot reticle? I gotta think that the bigger dot of the 407K X2 would be easier to pick up and hit with. But I'd like opinions on that before I send money...
Yes, I have the 507k X2 on my P365 and I prefer the circle dot reticle over the other two choices. I thought I would prefer the simple dot and the uncluttered view but I've found the circle dot to be quicker to pick up and no detriment to precision.
Next option looks like the Holosun 407K/507K X2. Does anyone with the 507K X2 use the circle dot reticle? I gotta think that the bigger dot of the 407K X2 would be easier to pick up and hit with. But I'd like opinions on that before I send money...
Yes, I have the 507k X2 on my P365 and I prefer the circle dot reticle over the other two choices. I thought I would prefer the simple dot and the uncluttered view but I've found the circle dot to be quicker to pick up and no detriment to precision.
When I'm trying to hit a 3"X5" index card at 50 feet at an indoor range, I find the circle dot to be a real detriment to precision. It is too busy and crowds the center of the optic.
As an aside, I am on an email notification list for a Primary Arms 507K X2 with the ACSS Vulcan reticle. Primary Arms says that the dot is 3 MOA, which is between the 507K and 407K dot sizes, plus it has the 230 MOA Vulcan outer circle to give immediate feedback if there is an alignment issue. I'll evaluate if that is a better mousetrap.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
Lot of guys just shoot the empty circle reticle, the "donut of death." I have a 507C x2 and really don't care much for the circle/dot combination. Too busy. The circle is fast and at close to midranges is accurate enough to do headshots at 25 yards and keep A zone hits to 50 yards. With that said, I have a preference for the dot only.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
I use a 507k x2 on my G23 and love the circle dot…but then again I’ve been using Bushnell Holosights with circle/dots on hunting revolvers for about 20 years now. Very quick and accurate for me. 😎
I use a 507k x2 on my G23 and love the circle dot…but then again I’ve been using Bushnell Holosights with circle/dots on hunting revolvers for about 20 years now. Very quick and accurate for me. 😎
That is what prefer as well is the circle DOT
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I wanted a red dot forever because I thought I'd love it. Finally got one and put it on a Glock 40. I just can't warm up to it. Hats off to anyone that can afford to put in enough time and money to get fast with one, because it ain't me.
I'd personally never put one on a serious carry gun. The added accuracy potential doesn't make up for the slower target acquisition in my book. Give me a laser instead.
There is no cost to learn how to acquire the DOT fast, it is all about presentation and that can be learned without firing a shot. If you can't find the FOT then you aren't aligned with your sights.
Perfect presentation and sight alignment are fine goals however real world situations don't always allow for it.
This is BS, because no matter the sights without proper presentation you will not hit your target quickly
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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