Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire The Church is imploding

Before Jesus, the Jews had the Torah and the law. They did add a lot of regulations that God didn't give them and they ignored all of the prophesies of Jesus. Where things really went south is after the fall of Jerusalem. Rome shipped them all over the known world and they gathered into small colonies here and there. Then their scholars started getting together to discuss the law. After a couple centuries, they had developed the Talmud, a huge gathering of insane regulations that attempted to interpret what God really meant when he wrote the law. What they decided God meant was often the exact opposite of what God intended.

The best example I know of is one that I've posted about before: Deut 14:21 ......"You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk. This shows up a couple more times in Exodus. Scholars say that the Canaanites had a fertility ritual where they did this. Then they'd sprinkle the broth over their land or animals to induce the gods to give them better crops. God didn't want the Hebrews to follow pagan gods or rituals. It's that simple.
However, the Jewish scholars of the Talmud went to work on it. They completely ignored the pagan ritual and tried to figure out what God REALLY meant. First, they decided that you couldn't boil any meat in any milk, not just goat. Then, in case of cookware contamination, you couldn't cook meat in any vessel that had ever held milk and vise versa. Then you couldn't eat milk and meat at the same meal in case they mixed in the stomach. Then you couldn't eat milk and meat on the same day. It kept growing and it's still with us today. Many modern kosher houses actually have 2 kitchens. They cook meat in one and milk in the other and they can't used both kitchens on the same day.
All of this because God didn't want them performing pagan rituals.

Jesus didn't come because man was getting it right... and Jesus isn't coming back because man saw the light and is getting it right after he came, went home.

Kent

I think that the greater message of the OT in relation to the mixing of Temple worship and paganism applies to us and is part and parcel to this thread topic, the OP.

Error is always the mixing of. They did it and we do it. It is nothing new and is a part of our sinful nature, the nature that we still possess even though redeemed.

When we look at the error in the OT and in the NT it is NEVER defined as “not listening to the Spirit or our inner God-spark”. Error is ALWAYS corrected by the admonition of the preacher calling the people back to the word. Quick examples; king Josiah and Paul’s instruction to the Corinthians. Return to the word. Return to what you were taught. Abandon what you feel (my emphasis).




Abraham was declared righteous because of faith not works. His faith was in the person and word of God to provide a messiah, lamb, sacrifice. Abraham’s faith looked forward on time as did all of the OT saints. Ours looks back in time. All look to the same Christ and the same events. That being the case, why do so many make the claim that there is a different means or way to God OT to NT. IF that is the case, nothing in the NT makes any sense.

Jesus's part of the NT makes sense.

Kent

To answer the original question, not hardly.

I don’t know what you’re saying. That’s a very broad statement.

Actually, it narrows it down.

Kent

The historical New Testament documents are the original Christian documents. The Old Testament scriptures didn’t become the first part of the Christian Bible, first. Early Jesus followers were enamored with Jesus, and they, ‘not’ the Jews themselves, saw that the Hebrew scriptures pointed to the Messiah, who they recognized and believed to be Jesus. So these early Jesus followers ‘only’ became enamored with the Hebrew scriptures because they were enamored with Jesus. They didn’t give two craps about Judaism. And they eventually adopted the Hebrew scriptures as Christian Scriptures ‘because’ they told of Jesus. They couldn’t have cared less about Judaism or the Law of Moses.

I look to certain parts of the Hebrew scriptures for inspiration and motivation, but ‘not’ for application. Christianity began ‘after’ the resurrection, and the Christian Bible exists ‘because of’ the resurrection. Jesus and His apostle’s appropriately leveraged the Law and the Prophets to make their case to their Jewish brethren in the first century. But when preaching to Gentiles in the first century, Jesus’ apostle’s leveraged a more recent development ~ the resurrection. When you watch a man crucified, and you know He died, and you know He was buried…and a few days later you share a meal with Him on the beach…your faith doesn’t need any ancient props. Those current events more than suffice.

Christianity doesn’t need to be propped up by the Hebrew Scriptures; Christianity can stand on its own two nail-scarred, resurrection, first century feet.

When Jesus taught about himself from the OT scriptures He condemned the Pharisees because the knew the scriptures but didn’t recognize Him IN the scriptures. He clearly told them that the Law and Prophets (texts) prophesied about Him.

I’m gonna go with red letter words, those things that Christ said and taught. Jesus either lied to us and the OT has no bearing whatsoever on the NT or He didn’t lie and the whole of the scriptures are a progressive revelation of grace by faith.

Based on the words of Christ and not upon human speculation, all scripture matters because the whole of scripture is about Christ.

Maybe you two know more than the incarnate son?

These are “red letter words”, things that Jesus Himself “said and taught”: “I have much to say to you, but you are not able to grasp it now. When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth,…”. I put a lotta stock in the mentoring and advocacy of the Holy Spirit. The same power of God that raised Jesus from the dead was sent to His followers in Spirit, to actually dwell within them. Nah. I just don’t see things the way that you see them on this particular matter. Christianity doesn’t exist ‘because of’ the Bible, it’s the other way around, the Bible exists ‘because of’ Christianity. Without the resurrection there would be no Christianity, and without Christianity there would be no ‘the Bible’.

Christianity…which is based on an actual event in history…would still be true even if the Bible was nonexistent.

I think the Pharisees DID recognize him. They also recognized that if people followed Jesus, they'd very quickly quit following the Pharisees. Their power and income would diminish rapidly. A real messiah was a threat to them.

RC.

Jesus, who knew their minds, told them all about themselves, that they didn’t know him. I’ve gotta go with what He said. However, I don’t believe that His statement in any way excludes your observation about the power struggle. They definitely were threatened.

Antlers.
I’ve heard the reasoning behind the verse that you quoted. The problem is that the verse is specifically written to the disciples. The evidence of what was said is seen in the authority that they demonstrated.

That verse is generalized to all who are of the faith but the evidence for that being the case doesn’t exist. When the apostles were correcting errors in the church we never hear them telling people that they were in error for not listening to or following the Holy Spirit. They were always pointed back to the departure from the Word and the traditions that they were taught.

As to the objectivity of Christ, removing Him from the OT, God placing Him in the text, deconstructs the clear message of the text, the direct words of Christ Himself. To do so removes the objectivity of His incarnation and all that He taught and leaves His story captive to the telling of secular historians.

Yeah, we clearly disagree on this matter. Jesus promises that every single person who trusts in Him will receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And I have confidence that He makes good on His promises.

I don’t deny the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, role of the Holy Spirit and function of the Holy Spirit is nothing like charismatic doctrine teaches.

Nowhere in the instruction of scripture, OT or NT, do we see an example of the believer being pointed back to their inner being and private interaction and revelation from the Holy Spirit. That concept is a false doctrine developed by isolating verses out of context.

As we have discussed issues over the years and as I’ve read but not responded to many of your related posts I have to say that I never know where you are going. There are times that you use scripture to support your views. Other times you deny scripture and your views are based on personal interpretation (?). This leaves your views in a totally subjective sphere.

I so appreciate the conversation and that you are honest and open about your views. That’s always a good thing. However, I have to take everything that you say with a spoonful of salt because we have no common basis for agreement. Subjectivity is not the basis for agreement. Take away scripture and sound understanding of scripture and objectivity is erases leaving Platonic philosophy in its wake.

As to your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, that is how I see Paul. Very contradictory to Jesus and often to himself.

One of the major defects of our day is mistaking feelings for the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12 gives stern admonishment for speaking wrongly about the Holy Spirit.

There are many verses in the Bible to support exactly what the Holy Spirit does for the believer. It is a subject which must not be taken lightly.

It would seem to me that these verses contradict your opinion.

Hebrews 8:8-12
King James Version

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The point of the Holy Spirit is to have guidance in this present life. If you always find your answers in the written word, you will only know the answers God gave someone else. That can be a powerful tool and likely won't lead you down the wrong path but neither will it give you specifics for your situation.

I think one of the greatest things I ever learned was that God wanted me to be more concerned about what he was telling me to do than what he told Paul or Peter to do.

I believe it will come down to the question of whether Jesus taught righteousness through keeping the law.

Want to clear understanding of what Christ taught about the law and the gospel is reached that confusion will disappear.

What's your take on it?