Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 223 Rem, New school or old school twist rate?

Don't understand the problem myself. 40-50 grs in the 222 . 52-77grs in the 223 heavier in the fast twist lighter in the slow twist no brainer. If you don't have the right twist for your bullets buy another gun duh. Damn it just ain't that hard to figure out...mb

It's my understanding that when the M16A2 was being developed it was planned for a 1/9 twist to shoot the 62 grain FMJ bullets. The problem was for the tracers. They were longer but lighter because they were hollow for the phosphorus compound that would light as the powder burned. To be accurate it needed a 1/7 twist to be accurate.

Due to a miss communication all barrels in the M16A2 became 1/7 twists. If it wasn't for that mix up there would be no 1/7 twist barrels or there would be very few of them and they would be highly specialized. This information came directly from a fellow who was involved in the development of the M16A2 while he was active duty Army. As it appears, the 1/7 twist is a really great twist for the shorter (14.5") M4 barrels. I guess you could call it a "happy accident".

I have a 1/12 twist Remington that really shoots the light weight bullets very well but at 60 grains the accuracy starts to fall off. I have not tried a 62 grain bullet in it. I just don't see the logic. Do I wish it was a 1/9 twist ? You bet, but I can make the 52's and 55's work. I have a Ruger American and some AR's for anything heavier than 60 grains. I understand the new Remington's in .223 are now 1/8 twist. I think that is a good choice for an all around rifle. The exceptions would be for the super light and the super heavy bullets.

This has been a great discussion.

kwg

I like where your heads at Bob.

Sheeit with my 700vs I get tighter groups at 50 yds with full profile sideways hits using 68 gr bthps from Hornady than that. You need to use a fresh target more often so it don't make you look like a cheap ass. But it is the dream target for the slow twist whiners congrats...mb

Scott, last year I did just that. My AR's have 1 in 7 to 1 in 9 twists and wanted a bolt gun that could utilize the same ammo if need be so I picked up a slightly used T3X heavy barrel 223 1 in 8 twist. While they are OK in my 5.56 and wylde chambers Sticks lvr and 75gr Hornady bthp load is on the hot side in the std223 chamber but shoots fabulous. In the wind at 300 + yds the difference in drift over std 55 gr bullets is very noticeable. Out here where I live and pd shoot in SD there is almost allways a wind so less wind drift loads are king.. I can have one of my 700vs ready with slow twist whiner bullets for under 300 yds and the T3x for over 300 right next to each other. Pick the right gun as needed. Like I said...mb

Yep, makes sense to me. I’ve just been loading 223/5.56 on my 550 for ARs. Worked great with LVR and 77 TMKs. Once I got the CTR it shoots the same crap pretty well, or well enough to not be in a hurry to change it up yet.



I let a young fella borrow the CTR for a 1000 yard informal shoot they do in town in the winter. I gave him a box of 50 of the loads and said have a blast. His girlfriend got on the gun and punched these three at 1000. He shot 10 for score and put 10 into 5-6” at 1000 and smoked a milk jug of water.

Before he took the gun he said are you sure this will shoot accurately. I was said “kid, the gun will do it”. That’s all he needed to know. Once he had the wind doped he was in there for accuracy and precision of guns costing a bunch more money than what my rig cost.

He went and got his own CTR this past week..

So like you’ve figured, you don’t need a pile of money to get a good gun that’ll do a lot of things right with a little bit of forethought. Plus I know this Tikka will shoot 40 BTs just as well as it does 77’s so while maybe it isn’t perfect it’s good enough for me and my dinking around.

It doesn't bother a lot of guys here to take a perfectly good Rifle and rebarrel it without even having shot it. My money came harder than that so when I rebarrel something it's because it's tired. I also see the utility of using new take off barrels and do when I can. I have in the wings a new 26" ss fluted heavy barrel chambered for 223 R threaded for a 700vs cost me $100 a local guy will put it on when needed. Another 26" ss 7mm mag chambered barrel when it's needed to replace a tired one. Usually if I want something else I don't go the rebarrel route , I'd rather sell one that is still shooting good and take the money to use on a whole new gun .I get a better return on it than spending dollar after dollar for custom triggers, stocks, and pro rebarrels. Getting back the money I have in a gun when I move it on for something else is an important part for me..
So I can see the advantages of the CTR but I'm not gonna convert my hb t3x to get them. I'll just sell it and buy 1 outright. When I need to.
Mb

Very sensible right there. I see things the sort of the same way. A rifle purchase to me is an investment. However, A lot of times I'll buy used, or barely used because the return rate is much better than buying a new rifle. But I do buy new sometimes, when I have to. Speaking of CTR's, I believe that is the last new rifle I purchased about 5 years ago. The second one I have, I bought used for much less than what a new rifle would cost. I can still sell it for more than I paid. That is what makes sense to me. I see a lot of wasted money on brand new rifles, then you have to modify this or that, and it all costs money. Especially if you don't do your own work. In the end, you have 3 times into the rifle than what it is worth. I don't go backwards like that, but to each their own.. Scotty did it right with that CTR for dang sure. I remember the morning he texted me with that picture of the target shot at 1,000 yards. Now that is how you get it done with the little 223 rem and one of the many reasons the faster twist makes more sense. I like the way you and Scotty think on this stuff. However, there are some here (very few), that are stuck in the 1960's and just can't get some of their ideas out of their heads. That's on them though.

Cool info about the A2 kwg. Thanks for sharing. I think the main thing here to take away from the thread is use the appropriate bullet for the rifle you are shooting. It doesn't have to be an argument, like some guys want to make it. I also agree with you that the 1 in 8" is damn near perfect. Couple that to a damn good rifle like a Tikka CTR and you are going to be in hog heaven.

BSA we do think the same I buy more slightly used guns than new ones, I allways let someone else take it in the butt on new gun depreciation. Gotta laugh , I was looking for a 1 in 8 t3x when I found this one, but it didn't look right. There was a 5/16" gap between the barrel and bottom of the barrel channel. Not overly familiar with Tikka but knew the recoil lug was not 1 piece to the barreled action it is in the stock and the groove in the bottom of the action go down over it. I asked the owner if I could take it down to check it out. I put a lot of used guns in their gun vise and check them out cleaning them as well prior to purchase. I'll clean and lube 10 for everyone I buy so it works out for them and they give me the right to do so. A good dealer is worth more than a hundred fugging box stores. Anyway I loosen the guard screws and pulled the barreled action, a guy could see that the recoil lug had been sitting on the bottom of the action but not in the recess. Replaced it correctly and replaced the screws, cut my deal, paid for it, took it home, scoped it and bore sighted it. 10 minutes later one hole groups at 50 yds off the bench on my deck out the back door. Zero'ed with ammo loaded for my other 223 bolt guns 55 gr horns. Moved the turrets after each 3 shot group 3 groups to zero all one hole not all perfectly round but 1 ragged hole. Yep I like Tikka too. Buying them slightly used at a discount is like having your cake and eating it too. The thing is pulling off a satisfactory barrel off one of my 700's for a new one to change twist, or to stainless, weight or length would have cost more than that tikka. Never mind a caliber, magazine, or bolt face change added to that. Yeah I know I'm lucky that I don't live somewhere more highly populated where shelf life of neat stuff isn't measured in nano seconds either...mb

Great post man. I love it! That reminds me of the new looking Tikka CTR that was on the shelf a couple years ago. I should have bought the damn thing. Yes, still kicking myself in the azz over it. It was chambered in 308win. Not my favorite cartridge, by any stretch of the imagination, and I already had 2 CTR's chambered in 6.5 creedmoor. It also had the big gap between the barrel and forend tip. I knew exactly what was wrong with it. I've seen them like that, when guys don't know how to put them back together. That rifle was only $500 and barely used. The same thing happened when I bought my Tikka varmint 22-250 for the same price. I just could not let that one get away at that price!! I knew exactly what was wrong with it. It was a T3 model with the aluminum recoil lug. Replaced that with a stainless lug, glass bedded it quickly and that thing shoots incredibly well. Generally 3 shots into less than an inch at 400 yards. That also goes back to using the correct bullet for the rifle at hand. That damn thing has a 1 in 14" twist barrel. I'm limited, but I know that. I'm not going to put a 77 in it and wonder why it's not performing well. I'm not going to biotch about it too much, just use the appropriate bullet. Yes, to me it would be much more useful if it were a 1 in 8", but I have one of those as well. "It's all good", as they say in my neck of the woods..

Eh BSA life would be a bitch for guys like us dealing with the one gun for everything mentality. Nothing wrong with my imagination when it comes to shooting and what women are for. Guns of course being more interesting and less expensive than the other..mb

Guns are easier to figure out too. ha ha.. I still love me some wimmens though..

There is a fellow on AR15.com that goes by the name Cold Blue. He was part of the M16A2 development program. He was telling us about the decision on the barrel twist. The original design called for a 1/9 twist but there was some discussion about the accuracy of the tracers and they learned the tracer needed a 1/7 twist to be accurate. Anyway, when the barrel makers asked about the barrel twist someone gave the 1/7 number not knowing the team was going with the 1/9 as per the design. The barrels came back from the makers 1/7's.

They liked the results and kept the 1/7 twist for the 62 grain bullets in the M2. It was later determined that the shorter M4's had better long distance accuracy with 1/7 twist at the reduced velocities with the shorter barrels. I gathered from the conversation the heavier bullets came later to make the best of the new fast twist. It appears the Army Marksmanship Unit and the Navy both wanted heavier and more stable bullets. We know the results as the MK-262 made by Black Hills Ammunition.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/edito...ns-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/99098

It also appears that the Army's DMR's (Designated Marksman Rifle) went from the 1/7 chrome moly barrel to stainless 1/8 barrels.

Barrel: The 1:7 twist, 20-inch (510 mm) barrel from the M16A2 and A4 were replaced with a stainless steel Douglas Barrels 1:8 twist, 20-inch barrel, with 12 flutes cut into the barrel to reduce weight. The front sight block was installed with 4 set screws instead of two taper pins. The SDM-R retained the A2-style flash hider.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squad_Designated_Marksman_Rifle

kwg

I got to interview the manager of the M16A2 development project, a USMC Ordnance officer. He mentioned the 7 twist came about because of the tracer rounds in artic environments required the 7. Same officer ran the M24 development effort. Another very interesting conversation.

Chris,

Very interesting!

I forgot to mention in my previous post, which is especially relevant to this: "Eileen and I have three .223s--though one is the .223 Bushmaster XM15-E2S skinny-barreled carbine I bought in 2008, which has a 5.56 NATO throat and a 1-9 twist barrel. It has grouped bullet from 40-grain Ballistic Tips to various 75-80 grainers well inside an inch at 100 yards."

Did considerable experimenting with lighter, shorter bullets in various twist-rate barrels back when I used one of the late Vern Juenke's Bullet Concentricity Comparators for a couple of years. It worked through ultra-sound, which revealed the internal balance of jacketed bullets--and worked very well. In fact, several companies bought one to improve the accuracy of their production bullets.

One thing that became obvious during the period was that lighter, shorter bullets could shoot VERY well in faster-twist barrels IF they were well-balanced, basically meaning they had jackets of very consistent thickness. Which is why the 40-grain Ballistic Tips shot very well in that 1-9 twist barrel, despite the long throat. Saw the same thing in other rifles, including 85-grain Sierra hollow-points that grouped very well in a Lilja-barreled 6.5x55.

Came to the conclusion that when lighter, shorter bullets don't group as well in "too-fast" twists, it's generally due to the bullets not being well-balanced.

Hmmm. Learn something new every day!

If I wanted to shoot a 223 in a LV benchrest rifle (just to buck the PPC monopoly), I would use a 14 twist and throat for 52's. If I was going to build a LR target rifle, I would use a 7.5 twist and throat for 80's. If I was going to build a rifle for general varmint use, I would probably build an 8 twist and load 55's to 75's, depending on what I had on hand.
Bearing surface, in combination with OAL, is the determining factor for throating unless a magazine is involved. Magazine constraints may trump everything else. GD

Magnum Bob- Back around 2005 I bought a CZ-527 American, 12 twist in 223. I shot that gun a lot, and my daughter did too, learning how to shoot well. It always shot pretty good, 1/2 to 3/4 MOA with most loads. After around 5K rounds, a lot of them shot hot and fast, the barrel was getting really tired. I called up James Calhoon since sometimes he has some takeoff CZ barrels.

He had a 9 twist 223 he had just pulled off a brand new rifle, never been shot except factory test targets. He told me headspace generally on the CZ's was pretty close, and odds were good I could just screw the barrel on, check headspace, and would probably be good to go, maybe a minor adjustment. He was right, I screwed that barrel on and headspace was perfect, a hair bit on the tight side, just the way I like it. I threaded the barrel 1/2x28 for a suppressor and went to shooting it. Right out of the box it was shooting groups that I would have been plenty happy with out of a custom. Probably the most accurate, and easiest to load for factory barrel I have ever owned. Sometimes I wish I knew the guy who ditched that barrel without ever shooting it. I would send him some pictures to show him what he let go without ever trying it. The groups were shot with loads from the old barrel, no development at all.

Top targets, the one group on the right was with 50 Blitzkings, the other groups on the left were with 50 VMAX.

Not mine, Longer hunting bullets often do but sleek match bullets often need less throat simply because there is less full diameter bullet shank in front of the case mouth yet the sleek steeply tapered front of the bullet is long and takes up magazine space.