But a 4" 44mag is going to move a 240gr HP 1209-1400fps - a power level far beyond a 10mm. I wonder if a 240gr XTP @1300fps would penetrate far enough on a 500+ pound bear?
There is no doubt that a big bore revolver loaded near full potential with heavy bullets clearly out does the 10mm semi auto. However, plenty of big bore revolver guys are carrying "packing pistols" of about 4" in barrel length and in the interest of recoil control and faster follow up shots they download their magnum cartridge a little. A 4" .41/.44/.45 revolver with 220-250 gr. bullets at 1200 fps makes a fine packing gun that is shootable in a crisis situation. And in the case of the .45's with hardcast it would cut a significantly wider wound channel that would create more damage inside a big mean critter than a 10mm. With that said, the full powered 10mm ain't no slouch and compares pretty well with those packing pistol loads when the 10 is stoked with a 220 gr. hardcast at 1200 fps. Going beyond the semi auto vs. revolver thing and focusing on power levels and necessary penetration it would seem the 10mm isn't too far off a typical 4" sixgun load.
Download for faster followup?
Sounds rather silly to me.
If using for defense against something w claws n teeth I'd run 265s cranked in a .44 mag. At a minimum.
How fast and accurate are you with 265's cranked in a short barreled .44 magnum? How many hits could you score on a volleyball size target rushing at you in an erratic pathway in 3-4 seconds? Only hits count.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
You're always better off with a load you are comfortable with, if you're missing then that bear isn't impressed! Big heavy bullets, put in the right place don't need top end velocities to get the job done so shoot what you can handle, not what someone else tells you to handle.
Comfort wise, 265s and under for me. Shot some 300s. Broke my 629-1 trigger pivot too LOL
I just fitted a new ejector rod housing to a brass frame 3 screw 7.5". Aint gonna be testing that one tomorrow LOL Wrist might be getting MRI, been screwed up for almost a month now.
Am thinking though, all the Smith Classics had endurance package and could get one in 5". Might be a dandy all arounder. But I like the looks of a non full underlug. Don't like Mountain guns. The 329 PD is light. That in a chest rig might be sweet.
You're always better off with a load you are comfortable with, if you're missing then that bear isn't impressed! Big heavy bullets, put in the right place don't need top end velocities to get the job done so shoot what you can handle, not what someone else tells you to handle.
Dick
Knowing just a little about your depth of experience with big bore revolvers and killing game with such I always appreciate and value your opinion.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Comfort wise, 265s and under for me. Shot some 300s. Broke my 629-1 trigger pivot too LOL
I just fitted a new ejector rod housing to a brass frame 3 screw 7.5". Aint gonna be testing that one tomorrow LOL Wrist might be getting MRI, been screwed up for almost a month now.
Am thinking though, all the Smith Classics had endurance package and could get one in 5". Might be a dandy all arounder. But I like the looks of a non full underlug. Don't like Mountain guns. The 329 PD is light. That in a chest rig might be sweet.
Ok, here's what you asked for, and Sweet it is.... And I'm Shooting HSM 305gr LWFN GC @ 1260fps w/1075ft/lbs...... get ya some.... Lj in Alaska.....
And just to be clear,,,,,, that 329 is not Stock, ie... see attached Write-Up.....
Last edited by AK375DGR; 04/08/23. Reason: added info.....
Comfort wise, 265s and under for me. Shot some 300s. Broke my 629-1 trigger pivot too LOL
I just fitted a new ejector rod housing to a brass frame 3 screw 7.5". Aint gonna be testing that one tomorrow LOL Wrist might be getting MRI, been screwed up for almost a month now.
Am thinking though, all the Smith Classics had endurance package and could get one in 5". Might be a dandy all arounder. But I like the looks of a non full underlug. Don't like Mountain guns. The 329 PD is light. That in a chest rig might be sweet.
Ok, here's what you asked for, and Sweet it is.... Lj in Alaska.....
You really want me to spend that money LOL! Nice setup
Comfort wise, 265s and under for me. Shot some 300s. Broke my 629-1 trigger pivot too LOL
I just fitted a new ejector rod housing to a brass frame 3 screw 7.5". Aint gonna be testing that one tomorrow LOL Wrist might be getting MRI, been screwed up for almost a month now.
Am thinking though, all the Smith Classics had endurance package and could get one in 5". Might be a dandy all arounder. But I like the looks of a non full underlug. Don't like Mountain guns. The 329 PD is light. That in a chest rig might be sweet.
It might be sweet goin' for a ride in a chest rig. I shoot a lot of different kinds of handguns and that 329PD bitch will put the hurt on you. The 500 S&W is much more pleasant to shoot.
However, with Mr. Big charging you, you're not going to notice the 329PD recoil. So there's that. 329PD is just not fun to practice with using full house loads.
You're always better off with a load you are comfortable with, if you're missing then that bear isn't impressed! Big heavy bullets, put in the right place don't need top end velocities to get the job done so shoot what you can handle, not what someone else tells you to handle.
Dick
In relation to that, I have a book, Fifty Years On The Old Frontier, by J.H. Cook, in which he tells of when he shot a buffalo bull in the head with his single action "Colt .45 pistol." The bullet went all the way through the bull's skull and brain, dropping the bull immediately. He wrote he was about ten yards from the buffalo. That was in 1887.
Cook had grown up in Texas, became a cowboy riding with several trail herds north, later became a professional hunter in Wyoming and Montana, guide to eastern hunters, etc., etc. He did not mention what weight the .45 bullet was, but it is a good guess it was the standard factory round at that time for the .45 Colt. I haven't looked it up in a long time but I believe that the factory load would have been a 255 grains lead bullet. (??) I don't recall the FPS of that load in a Colt .45, but it would be more in line with Dick's statement above.
FWIW.
L.W.
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." (William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830s.)
44 Mag, 45 Colt, 45 ACP, 357, 41 Mag, 44 Special, 32 Long & 38 Special all work very well with cast bullets. I don’t know about the 454 and bigger because I never owned them. I found that a 320 grain pb cast bullet in the 44 Mag has all the recoil and performance I will ever need.
I’ll shoot jacketed bullets in these, but I don’t expect any better performance.
I like hollow points in 22LR though.
I prefer classic. Semper Fi I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
You're always better off with a load you are comfortable with, if you're missing then that bear isn't impressed! Big heavy bullets, put in the right place don't need top end velocities to get the job done so shoot what you can handle, not what someone else tells you to handle.
Dick
In relation to that, I have a book, Fifty Years On The Old Frontier, by J.H. Cook, in which he tells of when he shot a buffalo bull in the head with his single action "Colt .45 pistol." The bullet went all the way through the bull's skull and brain, dropping the bull immediately. He wrote he was about ten yards from the buffalo. That was in 1887.
Cook had grown up in Texas, became a cowboy riding with several trail herds north, later became a professional hunter in Wyoming and Montana, guide to eastern hunters, etc., etc. He did not mention what weight the .45 bullet was, but it is a good guess it was the standard factory round at that time for the .45 Colt. I haven't looked it up in a long time but I believe that the factory load would have been a 255 grains lead bullet. (??) I don't recall the FPS of that load in a Colt .45, but it would be more in line with Dick's statement above.
FWIW.
L.W.
Sounds like a good read. I’ll have to hunt for a copy.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
That beats 10mm, but not by as much as you think. 200 gr hardcast DoubleTap loads chronographed 1315 fps from my Glock 20.
[/quote]
Love to see a video with that chronograph velocity out of a 4.6” G20. I don’t even get close to that out a 5” custom Jarvis barrel in a G20, or 5” 1911, or even a G40 with barsto barrel, with the same ammo.
I shot a 329 PD w hardcast 255gr the owner said were pretty warm.
It was not bad. Jumpy, but not bad.
My concern w buying one is my screwed up wrist. Until doc finds out why its messed up, Im not shooting any .44 magnums. Proly a stress fracture from work.
Found a used 329pd for under a K. Sure is tempting, even w bum hand LOL
The video said that the aerosol from bear spray didn’t have any effect on the bear, but did affect the men. I wish it had elaborated on that. I’ll bet it impacted their ability to shoot.
And they smelled the elk carcass but still decided to leave their rifles with the horses. I’ll bet they don’t do that again.
Wish everything was as simple as some here like to think. Hear how Their bullet choice is the answer.
Chose a better HP for the 45 and swap shooters positions?
Good chance the 10mm hardcast would have done brain damage. If not, 45 HP in the ribs would have worked better(faster) than the 10.
Hard Cast kill. No doubt. It's hilarious though. Talk about meplat, speed....trying to gain a few thousandths in killing power. Then discounting a soft point or HP out of hand.
FWIW I'm on the side of 40, 10, 45 semi with a big flat nose.
Because you don't get to choose the angles, and if you are the target it's probably head on.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
I hear the comment frequently about how under stress a person won't notice the recoil.
Having trained hundreds (I am sure it is over a thousand but I never bothered to keep track) of people over the course of 30 years, including citizens, .mil, .gov, leos, etc, that has not at all been my experience in observing and training people.
Reality is very different.
In reality, when put under additional stress, people do not suddenly perform even better. They generally do much worse. If they were incapable of controlling the recoil of a lightweight, hard kicking handgun before, they are not suddenly going to be able to place precise shots with it in a rapid manner. It is quite normal to perform at a lower level than what a person does during a training session where there is little stress.
The same applies with shotguns and rifles. More times than I can remember I have heard someone say "well if it is for real, they won't notice the recoil". No matter if they notice all of the recoil or not, the person who is not competent at that given time, is not going to become competent when outside factors are causing their body to lose some of their fine motor skills and they are in sensory overload.
I have seen people pull the trigger on a pump shotgun 4 and 5 times, forgetting to take the weapon off safe or properly rack the slide. That was just with a minor amount of stress from having some physical exertion put on them and having an instructor beside them talking in a loud and aggressive manner to them.
When it comes to guys shooting heavy hard kicking revolvers, a great many go straight to the numbers. They go with the heaviest. They opt for the biggest bullet going the fastest. They then tell themselves that under stress they will be able to put all the rounds onto target in under a second, or 1.5 seconds.
Having done many bear drills at a gathering I attend every year, watching guys shooting these cannons, once again, people's perceptions of what they think that they can do, and what they can actually do are quite different.
Egos get bruised, and the timer does not lie.
Personally it is one of the reasons why when shooting revolvers I don't shoot maximum loads in .44s and .45s.
It is also one of the reasons why I tend to favor a semi auto when in big bear country. A 250 grain hard cast .45 ACP at 925 that I can make a bunch of hits with under 2 seconds, beats a monster magnum that I can get two shots off at best, and the second one usually is questionable in under 2 seconds, and often not in a CNS zone.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
Yup, even with just a timer and couple folks watching, seen some shooters go to heck.
Am interested in a 10mm Delta Elite. Buddy has one, and hot loads........I thought were nothing great. As far as blast and recoil. Accuracy was very good.
Like 1911s very much. But nobody has the new Delta Elites around here (shop has some ordered).
Is the 10mm good enough ?
Have one .44 mag (Ruger), and proly get another (Smith), but also wouldn't mind a 10mm 1911 (Colt)
I find a deal on a 629-3 4" and I'll proly put a Brown speedlatch on it like my old one had. Hell I found some old speedloaders a while back, good enough reason to justify a replacement LOL
The 1911 45 ACP is the only semi-auto I’d trust but I would never pick a semi-auto over a revolver for reliable operation especially where weather can be an issue. I can and have shoot 6 rounds in less than 6 seconds with a 357. A 44 Special or 45 Colt take more time. A 44 magnum takes even more time. The snub nose revolvers in 454 or 44 magnum called the “Alaskan” would not be a good choice for me. I’ve observed a trick shooter in Deadwood shoot a 357 revolver accurately in much better time than I’ve been able too, when he performed his ‘trick shooting’, it sounded like a rapid fire machine gun and his aim was good. My normal carry revolver is a Model 19 loaded with 158 grain Keith style cast. I might be tempted to carry my 629 with cast bullets in country where I might be concerned about bears or wolves, but the loads would be somewhere between magnum and special loads.
I prefer classic. Semper Fi I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
For me, even when eyes good, a 4" was max usage to 50 yards. 6" to 100. Used to hunt creekbanks for chucks w .44 mag. Back when we had groundhogs. Can't remember shooting a buds 5" classic 629. Would like to try one again, see if I should split the diff between 4 and 6".
I hear the comment frequently about how under stress a person won't notice the recoil.
Having trained hundreds (I am sure it is over a thousand but I never bothered to keep track) of people over the course of 30 years, including citizens, .mil, .gov, leos, etc, that has not at all been my experience in observing and training people.
Reality is very different.
In reality, when put under additional stress, people do not suddenly perform even better. They generally do much worse. If they were incapable of controlling the recoil of a lightweight, hard kicking handgun before, they are not suddenly going to be able to place precise shots with it in a rapid manner. It is quite normal to perform at a lower level than what a person does during a training session where there is little stress.
The same applies with shotguns and rifles. More times than I can remember I have heard someone say "well if it is for real, they won't notice the recoil". No matter if they notice all of the recoil or not, the person who is not competent at that given time, is not going to become competent when outside factors are causing their body to lose some of their fine motor skills and they are in sensory overload.
I have seen people pull the trigger on a pump shotgun 4 and 5 times, forgetting to take the weapon off safe or properly rack the slide. That was just with a minor amount of stress from having some physical exertion put on them and having an instructor beside them talking in a loud and aggressive manner to them.
When it comes to guys shooting heavy hard kicking revolvers, a great many go straight to the numbers. They go with the heaviest. They opt for the biggest bullet going the fastest. They then tell themselves that under stress they will be able to put all the rounds onto target in under a second, or 1.5 seconds.
Having done many bear drills at a gathering I attend every year, watching guys shooting these cannons, once again, people's perceptions of what they think that they can do, and what they can actually do are quite different.
Egos get bruised, and the timer does not lie.
Personally it is one of the reasons why when shooting revolvers I don't shoot maximum loads in .44s and .45s.
It is also one of the reasons why I tend to favor a semi auto when in big bear country. A 250 grain hard cast .45 ACP at 925 that I can make a bunch of hits with under 2 seconds, beats a monster magnum that I can get two shots off at best, and the second one usually is questionable in under 2 seconds, and often not in a CNS zone.
I wonder if the data supports your assertions? Why am I being such a pest? Because it turns out that the great unwashed masses of outdoorsy types who carry a firearm for bear protection do excellent even though they aren't pistoleros (by forum definition).
Soooo either the data is dishonest (i.e. mistakes/failures left out), or the forum group-think of what is required is faulty.
